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#221776 - 11/19/13 07:03 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly
Mark Scalotti Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 12
BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly

Using Band-in-a-Box 2013 Build 366 Update (Jan 09-2013)

Key Gb Major

Key Signature correct Gb (Six Flats) but Cb (MIDI B) is displayed with Force Accidental set to:

Auto as B with a natural sign
Flat as C with a flat sign

Set to Flat or Auto should show C without a flat sign (Cb is in the key signature)

Key F# Major

Key Signature incorrect - Shows key of Gb (Six Flats) rather than key of F#

All notes have sharps except B which has a natural.

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#221786 - 11/19/13 08:44 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
As far as I know, those are no bugs. The notes: Fb, Cb, E# and B# will not be displayed. This has been known for years. Later, Ray


Edited by raymb1 (11/19/13 08:45 PM)
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#221807 - 11/20/13 05:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: raymb1]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8312
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Probably intentional on PG Music's part, and let's be clear, Band in A Box does an absolutely fantastic job of handling the complexities of music scoring. There's little question about that.

But in pure form, if a song has a flat (or sharp) in its key signature, and one of those notes affected by the key signature needs to be played as a natural (or sharpened or flattened), then the correct notation is to show the adjacent note with an accidental to force the natural to be played, or to use a double-flat or double sharp to achieve the same.

Here's an example (from Beethoven, Opus 27 2nd movement). Note the C Flat values to achieve B natural as opposed to just placing a natural in front of the B flat.

(Anyway, great work PG for what scoring features we have already received...)


Attachments
BNatural.jpg


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#221974 - 11/21/13 11:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
Mark Scalotti Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 12
I've taken some screen shots of a Gb Major scale to better explain what the issue is.

1/ The first line is notated in C Major so you can see what the underlying data is.

2/ Is the scale in Gb Major with B note set to Auto

3/ Is the scale in Gb Major with B note set to Flat

4/ Is the scale in F# Major with B note set to Auto - Band In A Box displays the key signature as Gb rather than F#

Hope this helps explain the issue clearer


Attachments
BIAB Bug.jpg



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#222050 - 11/22/13 12:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
We understand what you are saying. BIAB will not display Fb, Cb, B# or E#. BIAB will always display Fb as E, Cb as B, B# as C and E# as F. BIAB does not have a full blown notation program. Muse Score, which is free, will do what you want. Later, Ray


Edited by raymb1 (11/22/13 12:21 AM)
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#222073 - 11/22/13 09:40 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
With Band in a Box, it is possible to manually correct the accidentals if you perhaps need it on a chart.

In Editable Notation Mode, RightClick on the offending accidental note and observe carefully what's in the little Edit window.

Use of the "Force Accidental" plus changing the MIDI note value can force any accidental required onto the notation.


Don't forget to Save or SaveAs when done editing.



--Mac
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#222077 - 11/22/13 10:15 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
What Mac said. You have to manually change to the note you want. It won't happen automatically. Ray
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#222121 - 11/22/13 06:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: raymb1]
Mark Scalotti Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 12
The force accidental does not solve the problem in Gb or F#. That's why I posted the graphic with examples of the note B set to Force Accidental to Auto and to Flat.

The F# Key signature does nor work at all. It displays the key signature of Gb.

Shame really it doesn't seem to work. I've been using band-in-a-box for writing quick leads-sheets but I think your right the notation is not fully implemented so it's probably best I try exporting to a notation program from now on for lead-sheets.

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#222142 - 11/22/13 07:58 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
What songs are you playing in Gb or F#? Ray
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#222339 - 11/24/13 09:22 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: raymb1]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8312
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: raymb1
What songs are you playing in Gb or F#? Ray


It's a good question Ray, I was wondering the same thing myself!
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#222343 - 11/24/13 10:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: VideoTrack]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Shouldn't matter what song someone wants to play in those keys.

Irrelevant.

If they want to use the key signatures, that's their bidness.

And, the program really could stand a bit of work along these lines, all things considered, it is, after all, supposed to be more AUTOMATIC in function.

There is a much use in jazz, IMO, where we can utilize the "Black Key Pianist" methodology - for one example.

And, there are some Classical uses as well.

Also consider Bb Instrument charting, if the Bb Instrument is in its Ab key, the Concert Pitch would be Gb or F#.

Having the program able to better notate in the two keys, without error or manual interventions of the painstaking one-note-at-a-time corrections that apparently don't always work as desired is to me a valid user request.

So let's not shoot the messenger here. 'K?


--Mac
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#222355 - 11/24/13 11:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mac]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
Not shooting the messenger, just want to know what the song is and why not use F or G just to keep things simple. Ray
If we knew the song, there may some help from someone on the forum.


Edited by raymb1 (11/24/13 12:07 PM)
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#222359 - 11/24/13 12:21 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: raymb1]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2366
Loc: Sacramento, California
Originally Posted By: raymb1
Not shooting the messenger, just want to know what the song is and why not use F or G just to keep things simple. Ray

Because in those contexts signatures, they aren't "F" or "G", and Mark's made that abundantly clear. It's a bug, and BiaB should handle these correctly.

While it's understandable that BiaB may have issues with enharmonic equivalents, it's still wrong. So I don't understand why you'd say "As far as I know, those are no bugs" and in the same breath acknowledge the behavior.

Asking "What songs are you playing in Gb or F#?" is "shooting the messenger."
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#222362 - 11/24/13 12:42 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: dcuny]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
The reason those enharmonics aren't generally known as a bug is because most of us knew/know about them and dealt with the short comings of the notation program. As has been suggested many times by other forum members, Muse Score is better for proper notation and it's free. Later, Ray

I meant the key signature of F or G. If it's a pop or jazz type of song, a half step is no big deal. I can see the need for the right notation if it's a classical type of song. Why is wanting to know the name of the song "shooting the messenger"? When someone posts a question here on the forum, more info is asked for. Ray
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#222417 - 11/24/13 06:30 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: raymb1]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Perhaps the proper notation is desired for someone trying to use BB in a teaching situation.

Or maybe they are trying to write a book on a subject related to music teaching.

Or maybe they just want it to work right.


--Mac
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#222421 - 11/24/13 06:49 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mac]
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8312
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Mac
Shouldn't matter what song someone wants to play in those keys.

Irrelevant.

If they want to use the key signatures, that's their bidness.

...

Having the program able to better notate in the two keys, without error or manual interventions of the painstaking one-note-at-a-time corrections that apparently don't always work as desired is to me a valid user request.

So let's not shoot the messenger here. 'K?


--Mac


Hi Mac, my question was certainly not suggesting for a micro-Second that the user should use a different key. I'm a classically trained pianist, and I have played in those keys myself. And I know they are not 'extremely' common. I was just interested in what the songs might have been.

And yes, it's possible also had they been transposed to that key to fit with an arrangement with other instruments.

Mark is free to play them in any key he wants. And yes, the notation should do it right - No argument. But with respect, I'm not shootin' anyone either. I only was interested in what the songs were. Nothing else. Just for clarification.
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#223242 - 11/27/13 10:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: raymb1]
Mark Scalotti Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 12
I know it seems a little strange to want to write in the keys of Gb or F# but I'm writing out some sheets of some original tunes that have been given to me by a singer for the rest of the band. Gb or F# is the best-sounding and most comfortable range, or good tessitura for their voice for these tunes.

The good news is that it has forced me to learn how to use a notation package (the bad part was finding that band in a box couldn't do it.)

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#223255 - 11/27/13 11:08 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: BUG: Keys of Gb & F# display incorrectly [Re: Mark Scalotti]
raymb1 Offline
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Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2543
Loc: Sterling, Va
"Gb or F# is the best-sounding and most comfortable range, or good tessitura for their voice for these tunes."

One of the best reasons for using any particular key. One of the vocalists I work with likes to sing a lot of his songs, jazz type, in sharp keys, because those keys sound brighter. Hopefully BIAB will implement what you're requesting in the near future. Later, Ray
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