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Your mission, should you choose to accept: Help me to develop an individual sound that contains elements of Santana's, Mike Oldfield's, and/or David Gilmour's guitar sound--smooth, with lots of sustain, and free of the snarly bits and amp 'roar'. (I can get those fine when I want them.) I've done a certain amount of research, but apart from the fact that many players consider their configuration to be a trade secret, there is a lot of dated, conflicting, and just plain wrong information. I know that Santana uses a dual-humbucker guitar and am pretty sure that MO does, too. Nevertheless, I'd like to base my sound around that of a Strat. I typically use the center and neck pickups with tone wide open for clean sounds, and highs rolled off considerably for distorted sounds. I am currently experimenting with a center single-coil and bridge HB sound. I really want some of the single-coil sound to come through. What I have to work with: Don't bother suggesting additional gear; there is no budget for anything beyond what I have now: - an Ibanez Roadstar II Strat copy with three single-coil pickups and Roland GK-3 divided ("MIDI") pickup;
- Roland VG-88 "V-Guitar" instrument/amp/effects emulator;
- Behringer GX-112 "Blue Devil" amp with 24-bit FX (but only three amp models, uneffected except for reverb and distortion). This amp has an effects loop;
- assorted outboard gear, including various stomp boxes, a two-channel compressor and 24-bit multieffects box.
I have set up the Ibanez myself. It plays well and yields a pretty good Strat sound. It has a five-way pickup selector and phase switch, which makes for a credible Tele sound as well. Virtual capabilities: The VG-88 emulates major guitar types and popular pickup combinations, major amp makes and models, and has a built-in virtual stereo effects chain. I have access to any control that exists on the real-world amps, plus a preamp "low-normal-high" switch. There is no loop for external effects. I can put the virtual effects in any order, but only have one of each. I can assign speaker type and configuration, and mic placement (on/off center and distance, from 1 cm to several meters). I can process the emulated guitar and the Ibanez output separately. Should you be caught or captured, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your existence. This message will self destruct in 10 seconds.  R.
Last edited by Ryszard; 05/14/09 09:35 AM.
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The VG-88 by itself is able to do a lot of things in recording.
Matter of fact, Jeff Skunk Baxter used to show up for studio dates with little other than that and an acrylic clear plastic body strat that had a Strat neck hangin' on it. And a fullrange amp, of course. The fullrange amp is the necessary ingredient for most all guitar/amp/cabinet sims, fullrange and stereo. Of course, when recording to the PC, just use the stereo line out direct to soundcard.
A lot of players actually hurt themselves by trying to pipe the output of these modelers or sims thru standard guitar amps, which in effect are bandpass filters for the audio range. The fact is that the digital simulation is often dependant upon fullrange audio, "twenty to twenty" and stereo, too, for the speaker cabinet and other spacial simulations to sound correct.
One problem with amp simulators is that many players do not have experience with playing the actual real target amplifiers or effects they yield in the first place. That is like not having a place to stand. You can accept a lot of sound variation that the real amp may not do, or just plain sounds bad if you are in that situation.
Also, playing the digital amp simulator is just plain a different act than playing the "real" amp, one has to spend time practicing with the amp simulator in order to be able to bring the best sound out of any of them. For one thing, there is the A to D circuit to contend with, plus the latency, however slight. VG-88, though, is topshelf stuff.
There are no shortcuts.
So get started working with what you have.
It typically takes practice, not only in the playing of the guitar but in the setting of your amp simulator -- and after that, perhaps most importantly -- practice in the art and science of capturing same via the digital recording and mixing process.
Far too many people make the claim that manufacturers must "massage" their demos of these products or even resort to subterfuge with the demos presented in order to sell them. I don't buy that for the vast majority of demos, especially when the company is as reputable as Roland, etc. But I was at the NAMM show where the VG-88 was presented by none other than Skunk Baxter. Then I got to try the thing in the same place with the same setup for a short. Needless to say, I ain't Skunk Baxter, right? Still, I bought a VG-88 and after a few weeks of practicing, working with it, reading the manual, tweaking the presets to match my playing style and tastes, retweaking, rereading that manual, then doing some recordings that stunk, all the while chasing the holy grail, I was soon able to use the VG-88 to do what all of my equipment MUST do around here -- pay for itself.
There ain't no shortcuts.
Spend the time PLAYING the things you have and spend that time efficiently and wisely. Posting and listening to others' advice is okay, but it will NOT do a blamed thing for the process for you in the long run, it can only provide some freetime when you come up for air or perhaps when you get stuck on a particular.
And stop using English words to try to describe a musical sound. That's for the audience, not for the Producer. Because they are virtually meaningless in getting anything across that can be used later. Music sounds do not define exact particulars at all. it is perceptive. One person may hear the same sound and their description may vary quite a bit from what the next person hears. At that point, it is all good, but to the pro, it is not subjective enough to use for any meaningful communication. "Make it sound warm" My first question to that one has always been, "Can you gimmie a specific temperature on that?"
Your chosen task is not as easy as it looks. It takes a lot of dedication and hard work on your part. Use of the notepad, pencil, efficient note-taking as you practice every day is part of the process. Mastering your chosen instrument is a LARGE part of the process. Skunk can pick up anybody else's guitar, import, bad setup, whatever, and still sound pretty doggone good. Because the majority of the magic is in Mr. Baxter's abilities and not the equipments. If you happen not to like Skunk's playing style, no problem, simply insert the name of your personal fav instead. Same thing applies.
--Mac
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We live in interesting times. Was able to find that someone has web published Skunk's "American Guitar Technique" video on youtube. Be happy, some of us had to pay real money to view this one and it is worth every cent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBcen1w6NQs Find each of the ten minute cuts in order and watch them. Digest and watch again. Then DO. BTW, he is using both the acrylic strat and the VG88 is on the floor in front of him, or at least the foot controller MIDI pedals for it are. He also is using a Roland guitar synth off the MIDI pickup, too, in some instances as he shows how its done, son. Pay attention. What he has to say applies to every genre and then some. If you don't happen to like a certain genre, don't let the emotion thing get in your way. Take INFLUENCES from everywhere. --Mac
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Mac,
You have gone way beyond the usual in answering my question. Thank you, as always. (Your previous answer to a question of mine has been printed out and hangs in front of me as I work.)
Although I've played acoustic and rhythm guitar for over 40 years, I am a relatively new electric lead player, dating back only to February of last year, when I got the VG-88. It has transformed me as a player. I have ZERO time playing through any amp other than my Behringer (recently) and an old Fender Bassman head (years ago) except in music stores, so, as you say, I have no place to stand. I accept that I have to spend time with the puppy. I was and am hoping to save some time, for which I can only seek the experience of others. Maybe I'm better off not understanding how amp and FX controls interact. Maybe that ignorance will be a help in achieving a unique sound. Just thought that asking for help was appropriate.
To justify my use of English to describe the sound, the electric guitar is the rock voice that my natural pipes can't produce. Many people comment on the vocal-like quality of my playing. This is intentional. Perhaps I have already achieved the major part of my individual sound; now I'm just tweaking. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure that fans of the players I mentioned will know what I'm talking about.
I always go to the board from the Rolie, never through an amp except for testing or casual jamming, and always monitor on speaker except late at night. So far I have noticed that it can sound okay as I'm playing, but significantly different when played back, even though I record flat. Same as my natural voice.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
Maybe I'm better off not understanding how amp and FX controls interact.
Would you accept that statement from your surgeon, airplane pilot or even your plumber?
Knowledge is power.
Serendippity can only happen to those who have the knowledge to both recognize it when it occurs and also to exploit it.
There are no shortcuts, stop looking for 'em. Especially in the studio where even the seemingly smallest of shortcuts can prove devastating to the projects.
Seek Excellence.
What you bypass WILL come back to bite you.
--Mac
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Quote:
To justify my use of English to describe the sound, the electric guitar is the rock voice that my natural pipes can't produce. Many people comment on the vocal-like quality of my playing. This is intentional. Perhaps I have already achieved the major part of my individual sound; now I'm just tweaking. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure that fans of the players I mentioned will know what I'm talking about.
I agree with the concept of always trying to "sing" through our chosen instruments.
But I do not agree that such justifies the use of English to describe musical sounds.
--Mac
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U got lectricity down there? In the wife's family we play at the shack/cabin and I gotta play the squeeze box. The wife's uncle has 30 harmonicas in a bag, that dude can wail. I can't find an extension chord long enough to reach, that would be about a mile. I figure it would be about 12 inches diameter at least.
I drove around Atlanta a bunch of times fleeing the snow. Glad to see they named a town after me down there. Now it's way cheaper to fly to an all you can eat/drink place in Cuba, 10 mins to the airport, direct flight, 2 hours and a bit, 20 mins to the hotel, and all the Havana Club you can down. All for 800 bucks or 600 US, but they don't take US dollars at all, or American Credit Cards.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
I agree with the concept of always trying to "sing" through our chosen instruments.
But I do not agree that such justifies the use of English to describe musical sounds.
--Mac
I changed the title of the post. I think that reduces it to an objective technical task. I've done some engineering, I know something about making it sound "greener", lol.
I think I'll post your two words--"Seek Excellence"--next to P.T. Barnum's: "Astonish Me". How much else can you say?
R.
Last edited by Ryszard; 05/14/09 09:41 AM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Now turn off the browser and turn on the DAW.
Get. Started.
Twenty minutes a day adds up.
--Mac
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Carlos Santana: guitar
Paul Reed Smith Santana model guitars (3)
Alvarez-Yairi CY127CE nylon-string acoustic
Mu-Tron wah pedal
Ibanez Tube Screamer
Jim Dunlop customized selector box
Dumble Overdrive/Reverb amp head
Mesa/Boogie Mark I amp head
Fender Cyber Twin amp
Motion Sound AR-112 rotary guitar amps (2)
Mesa/Boogie 1x12 cabinet
Marshall 4x12 speaker cabinets with Celestion G12M Greenback speakers
Brown 4x12 cabinet with Tone Tubby Speakers
Season to taste. Serves 6.
DTuna
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Tone is mostly technique which all the gear in the world won't address.
But, to emulate a sound you should never use a preset, recipe or the like. Firstly, they are never right. Secondly, you'll never learn anything.
You should never develop the tone you want to emulate "outside" of the mix. That is to say, stand-a-lone. If you do it will never sit the mix or sound right on playback even though you "think" it is right by itself.
Listen carefully to something that you imagine has lots of distortion like Hendrix and a wall of Marshall's. Now listen carefully to a Hendrix song and realize that it's about a quarter of the distortion you initially perceived.
Grab a Santana mp3 that you know how to play. Bring it in your daw as track 1. Arm track 2 for recording. Insert a guitar vst and get something playable. Record and play along with the track. You are recording dry BTW. The vst is your sound which you can adjust again AFTER you lay down the track. After you lay down your track go back and listen. Adjust the vst to fit the sound you are hearing in the mp3. It may surprise you when you look at the choices you dialed in to match the sound you were hearing in the mp3.
DTuna
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BTW, I agree with much of what Mac posted as well as the videos.
Do it.
DTuna
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Before you ask, here's an amp sim for free: Dig
DTuna
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thank mac also found this From Grammy Award winning guitarist for the Doobie Brothers and Steely Dan to Department of Defense with a high-level security clearance in the Pentagon, Jeff Baxter is a true visionary. In today's global economy, traditional problem solving is no longer good enough. In order to compete, companies have to approach business with a fresh vision. He is consultant to the Department of Defense with a high-level security clearance in the Pentagon, advising top military and civilian groups on biological warfare, next-generation technology and unconventional strategies.
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit 16GB RAM\2018 13” MacBook Air casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
casio wk-7500
biab & realband 2023 everything pk both with Current builds
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Yep, Skunk works inside the beltway now. But that's old news and it was under the Bush administration. Dunno what the future holds on that front. But Skunk saved the DOD quite a bit o' money.
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The roland V-guitar stuff is simply amazing. I find it too complicated for my tastes, to be honest.
I'm now in Colorado Springs and my new boss has a Godin with the built-in midi pickup and the V-Guitar outboard processor. He doesn't even use the 'normal' jacks on the guitar - just connects the multi-pin thing.
There are presets right out of the box for Gilmour and Santana. Use them. I'm with Mac, many of the presets are dead nuts right on the money.
I also agree with Mac that you need to turn off the computer. Don't show up here for a month. Use the time to hone your chops. You've got quite alot of gear - it's going to take time to learn how to use it properly.
A bunch of sounding like Jeff Beck, or Santana, or Gilmour, etc. is note choice and placement in the song. Swanman here on our forums has the Jeff Beck styling nailed down pretty well. Note how he ends his phrases. Very often times they don't end on the tonic of the scale - on purpose - just like Jeff Beck. Actually, almost always, they don't end on the tonic. Santana is similar. Can't end on just any note, however.
Learn your box patterns down cold. You'll go a long way with just learning that stuff.
David Gilmour is the master of the upward full-step-and-more bends. Also, never really plays real fast. His most famous solos (comfortably numb) are not about speed, but absolutely perfect melody note choices.
Trevor Rabin also comes to mind as another one who builds his solos on upward intervals that just tend to make you feel good as you listen to them. Most other rock guitarists will go up in some scale stuff, and then they always come back down. Not Trevor.
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Good advice about not playing the tonic.
Reminds me of an old teacher who told me to intentionally not play the tonic at all in my soloing practice.
That's a great drill for anybody who wants to play better solos.
For one thing, I immediately found out how many times I was playing the tonic to re-establish "home base" simply because I wasn't paying mental attention to where it was at the time. Notes like those are redundant.
--Mac
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Well, being the resident Gilmour expert (if I may be so bold  ), I would give you advice... Except that I take a pretty literal approach to emulating Gilmour's tone, perhaps too literal for anyone not specializing in the Floyd: I'm using basically the same gear. A Gilmour strat, various Big Muffs and Tube Drivers, a Yamaha leslie unit and a Hiwatt. So... That won't really do you any good. However - I can say that the key is a lot of power into a clean tube amp. Really any strat into a Big Muff into a clean loud tube amp will do the trick. If you're looking to cop sounds from the Wall, you'll want a digital delay and a flanger as well. Earlier sounds use fuzz, an overdrive, and vintage delay. Compressor is surprisingly key for squashing attack. In my personal opinion, the gear and settings you're using are only half the battle. I can take any Fender guitar and make it sound like either Clapton or Gilmour (my two key influences) no matter what other gear is plugged in - the trick is emulating the _way_ they play, not necessarily _what_ they play. If that makes sense. Once you get the feel down, the sound will come. You can PM me with any questions you may have about Gilmour's sound, of course  Santana, on the other hand, I'm not so sure of. I've always copped his stuff with a lot of gain and P90s... But I obviously haven't put the same amount of time and effort in to his stuff at all. As far as describing sound using regular old english words, Ryszard, I say go for it. Guitarists will know what you mean, and I don't think you can get it across any other way. I hate to disagree with Mac, but when someone tells me they want a "warm" guitar sound, I know pretty much exactly what they mean - sure, they might need to clarify a bit, but I know how to get in the ballpark. If you've been playing guitar for 40 years, you probably know too
----- Do you love the Floyd as much as I do? If so, click away the moments that make up the dull day: www.canadianpinkfloyd.com
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Quote:
There are presets right out of the box for Gilmour and Santana. Use them. I'm with Mac, many of the presets are dead nuts right on the money.
I was looking at the preset list:
Preset List
Where did you find those?
DTuna
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As often happens, I didn't make myself fully clear. I'm not trying to sound like anybody, but to understand elements of their electric guitar sound so that I can incorporate it into my musical voice. Eventually it will all become me, and people will be trying to sound like that Ryszard guy. My electric playing has been compared to Keith Richards, Jeff Beck, Robert Fripp, and David Gilmour. I do love Carlitos' lyrical approach, but owe as much of my melodic influence to Herb Alpert as anyone else. No, it's not about speed. "Space music", I have found, is about just that--lots of room between elements. I appreciate the specifics about equipment. I've gotten the most mileage out of the Tuna Kahuna's enjunction to turn down the distortion. I thought I'd lose sustain, but I have actually turned the preamps down in most of my models and have a smoother sound and at least as much sustain as I had before. I've switched from Marshalls to Boogies for now. I'm not actually sure what other amp models are in there (can anyone tell me what a Red or Orange rectifier is?). And which, exactly, are the Santana and Gilmour presets? I've probably blown them away in the user bank, but if they're there at all, they are still in the factory presets, which I have barely explored. I know so little about this that I may not recognize them when I see them. Josh, I actually have a Big Muff Pi and a heavily-modified 1967 Fender Bassman head through which I haven't played in years. I'm using the GK-3/VG-88 sounds almost exclusively, though every once in a while I'm surprised to find that I'm playing a mix of VG and natural sound. The VG will allow me to process the natural guitar through all the virtual amps and FX by itself, so I may play with that, too. The VG produces a credible Leslie sound, too, except for not speeding up and slowing down at all; it's on or off. I have a Behringer MultiFX box that will do it, too. I even have a Korg MS-20 with built-in pitch to voltage converter. Eventually I'll have three separate signal chains: Ibanez, VG, and mono synth. Polysynth will have to wait until I can afford the $700 Terratec Axon Mk II. I have several beds posted at indabamusic.com. Pretty soon I'll screw up the courage to share some of the guitar tracks I've been laying down--all thanks to members here. Regarding the time I spend here: (to Mac: "Twenty minutes a day, hell!"). I have the luxury of spending many hours a day at my music; sometimes entire days. I make major discoveries almost hourly. I'm also active at Propellerhead.se and various music promotion/collaboration sites, as well as trying to get the live thing going locally. I type really fast, so I may not be spending as much time online as you think. I'm trying to do many things at once: learn several pieces of software, create music, develop the guitar sound, get better at everything, and post salable tunes. I'll be here as often as I need to get or share information. Thanks to everyone for all your help and interest. R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,620
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Jan 19th, 2020
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