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#240605 - 02/19/14 08:53 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ?
Joe V Offline
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Hi all,

Many books will teach you a 'silly' amount of fingerings for all the different chords, but far fewer - maybe none that I have run across, that take a chord quality and explain the function of that chord in a variety of song contexts. Also, these books will build diatonic structures in a 'silly' amount of tonalities, and again - have very few examples regarding function.

Can you guys help me get started understanding the most common functions of the above qualities, maybe reference some good song examples, and some exercises to help me incorporate these songs into compositions and cool substitutes ?

Again - I have a LOT of books - but none do justice, IMHO, to this question. Maybe I just have the wrong books for this aspect of music.


Edited by Joe V (02/19/14 08:55 AM)

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#240609 - 02/19/14 09:05 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Mac Offline
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Can you properly harmonize a Major scale in any key on yer guitar?

Example: Play an E Major scale in one octave using the correct chord for each step. M-m-m-M-M-m-dim7-M

If not, then it is not time to be concerned with these chords yet, for they will not make much harmonic sense.

The function of those three chords is to provide the scale-generated harmony for the notes in between the notes of the given scale.

Look up "scale harmonization" for starters.


--Mac
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#240613 - 02/19/14 09:11 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Joe V Offline
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Mac - I've got the part you described, I just can't seem to make the jump to using that stuff in songs and compositions. Maybe I'm more concrete - I'm looking for some more song examples and particular progressions that use them. Thanks again for all your support and help over the years.

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#240617 - 02/19/14 09:26 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Mac Offline
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Examples of usage in songs, start investigating the chord changes to the great old standards, ballads, jazz standards. Realbook, etc. Tin Pan Alley songs forward.


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#240645 - 02/19/14 11:34 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Guitarhacker Offline
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A good understanding of music theory will help you to understand them a bit more.

Also study the kinds of music that use them..... Jazz is a really good place to start.

I write a lot of country and to be honest, there generally isn't a big need in country for those chords.

You can also study this right inside Band in a Box.

Use the MELODIST function.....select Jazz and one of it's subcategories and let it generate a number of "songs". Depending on the style it is using, you will find these chords used right there in BB. Study how it is applied.


Edited by Guitarhacker (02/19/14 11:37 AM)
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#240677 - 02/19/14 03:27 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Mac Offline
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The Band in a Box Demo songs are another place to study use of chords in progressions, too.

The Jukebox can load all the songs in one demo folder and play them, you can stop the jukebox when one loads that looks interesting and have a go at it.


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#240699 - 02/19/14 05:55 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Joe V Offline
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...and so I begin following all those suggestions. Thanks for the encouragement and reminders.

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#240752 - 02/20/14 08:13 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
MusicStudent Offline
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Love the sound of these diminished chords. they also lay so well on the guitar neck and given that they are symetrical there is lots of cool voicings.

Charlie has a good writeup on these:

http://charlieaustinjazz.blogspot.com/2012/03/diminished-perspectives.html
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#240753 - 02/20/14 08:14 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
pghboemike Offline
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tutorial videos featuring Tim Cummiskeylooked like they may be useful for this thread




http://www.youtube.com/user/SPGGuitar251/search?query=Tim+Cummiskey
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#240782 - 02/20/14 03:53 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
raymb1 Offline
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Google II - V - I functions. Lots of info out there. Later, Ray
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#241748 - 02/27/14 01:45 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
ZeroZero Offline
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To try to answer the question, applies to your other post too Joe.

Diminished chords bring tension.

Music is about tension and release.

Release tends to be strong beat major and minor chords.

In between there is space for tension, diminished chords can fit in here, preceding the resolving chord, often preceding by a diminished a half stelp below

The augmented fifth chord, is basically a dom 7th chord with an extra bit of color, a common place for one of these is the last chord of a twelve bar blues. Try a 12 bar with a 7th chord built on the fifth of the key, then an aug 7th, you will hear a bit of extra spice and yearning to get to the root chord on bar 1 of the second chorus.

Basically all these none standard chords bring tension, they heighten the tension.
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#241749 - 02/27/14 01:49 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
ZeroZero Offline
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the minor 7 flat five is a Locrian chord, in C its all white nbotes based on the 7th - B. I think of this as a standard, unchanged modal chord. If you work it out this chord is strongly related to the dominant 7th as it shares three notes with it.


Edited by ZeroZero (02/27/14 01:50 PM)
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#243154 - 03/08/14 01:52 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
MusicStudent Offline
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Maybe you need to play and hear these chords in action. Wrap your fingers around this little ditty:

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#243183 - 03/08/14 08:04 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Mac Offline
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Note stack for the 5th chord Am7b5 is NOT correct, actually there are quite a few discrepancies in that example, such as that A# in the Gm7, etc.

The chord diagrams look to be okay, but the notes given are not to be trusted. Charted by Kent Reed?




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#243214 - 03/09/14 09:36 AM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
MusicStudent Offline
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The source of this score goes back a long way (~20 yrs?). I suspect it may have originated in some form in a Guitar Player Magazine. I think I added the chord charts back in the day likely based on how I played the piece more then how it is actually notated.

I did some hunting this morning and was able to confirm that I did add the chords based on my playing but did not change the corresponding notation. So in fact there are two versions above, one for the guitar player and one for keyboard (no extra charge).

I just redid it after all these years and notated the way I play it on guitar. I'm always open to corrections?


So now that you have seen it and played it, lets drop in BIAB so you can hear it and understand why jazz cats love these changes.

12 Bar Minor Blues - augmented and diminished chords - BIAB 2014


Edited by jazzmandan (03/09/14 01:33 PM)
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#243247 - 03/09/14 01:35 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Mac Offline
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You're first example shows something that happens when someone makes the error in thinking that since Sharps and Flats share "the same note" that there is no reason to deal with both.

Convention, however, is there because the music notation rules are based on more than 300 years of input and development. When we first encounter notation, it is a rather common thing to think that the conventions used are either superfluous or otherwise not as easy to deal with, I can recall thinking the same sort of thing about certain notation functions at one time.

As with many subjects, the more exposure and experience gathered is important, those conventions and such then start to make much more sense as to the rhyme and reason behind them.

Then we start to realize the wisdom in those rules of notation and such. We figure out why, for example, a Gm7 chord notation will always be done with a Bb and not an A# in it. Or a b5 chord that uses a SHARP in the notation. Sure, it is the same fret on the same string, but when I view a Sharp - I'm automatically thinking "Augmented 4th" which immediately makes me think, "Classical Music" when we are dealing with a Jszz chart, where the thinking should be "Flat 5, man"...


And others will be able to read our charts much faster and easier, because the chart will contain the certain conventions that everyone is accustomed to using.


Just keep dealing with the thing, as you show well that you are here, for that is what we as journeymen musicians should *always* be doing from cradle to grave. I think I've always been able to hear and play things before being able to properly notate same. It had to change the day long ago when I took on the task of Copyist for a bigband, moving from there to the beginnings of trying my hand at my own Arrangements. Other musicians can be very cruel when one darn little thing on the chart ain't right.

Straightahead,


--Mac
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#243706 - 03/12/14 04:24 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
ZeroZero Offline
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Posts: 1632
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On the point of the history of notation Mac, I can see where you are coming from and all the points you raised are true, however my view (only mine) is that the notation system is cumbersome. English is similar because it has grown from a hotch potch of needs and conditions and influences, it has so many anomolies and illogicalities, grammar is needlessly complex.
Same with music notation, it was first developed before Fux in the days of Church Modes as a few scratchings on the sides of manuscripts before the concept of the major scale was properly developed (as we would see this) when some intervals were associated with the devil and when there was no equal temprement instruments - notation was mainly for choirs and plain (type) song.
It was also developed to be facilitated by the scratching of the quill pen - lines squiggles and blotches
As time proceeded notation was hacked and used to suit various instruments and settings - in a hotch potch fashion.
Unfortunately we were still left with needlessly terrifying terms such as "Mixolydian" "Appogiatura", sforzando and many more " (OK I can't spell them).
If basic things were put more simply we would all learn doppio movimento to put it in notation terms.

I have deep sympathy for anyone trying to learn notation, many are put of by its needless obscurities. There is a lot of damage done by the classical route education (IMO)

I am on my soap box....I admit

Zero



Edited by ZeroZero (03/12/14 04:31 PM)
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#243719 - 03/12/14 05:02 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Mac Offline
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The more one actually works with it, and that means sight reading rehearsals as well as home practice, using notation in actual scoring work, etc. - the more one is likely to find out the wisdom involved in how notation is done today. Notation and language are two manmade things that actually do evolve over time, solving problems.

Over the years I've seen several different attempts to create a new music notation system that was supposed to be simplified or somehow "better" and none of them were, all were rather abysmal because they left out some important factors here and there.

Anyway, it is what it is, those who do not have a daily need to use music notation will likely always see that differently.


--Mac
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#243913 - 03/13/14 07:27 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Joe V Offline
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Registered: 02/19/06
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Really great examples and discussion - thanks for sharing, it's really helping me out. I'm following all the suggestions, and Mac - I confess - I can NOT fluently harmonize the scales in any reasonable musical tempo - still working on that : )

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#244793 - 03/20/14 01:14 PM [Woodshedding - Learning to Play!] Re: What are the most common functions of diminished, augmented, and m7b5 chords ? [Re: Joe V]
Joey the Flute Guy Offline
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Registered: 01/30/13
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Mac has a good point in suggesting to Harmonize a major scale.(I didn't know it was called Harmonizing a scale)


Edited by Joey the Flute Guy (03/23/14 01:05 AM)

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