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#244140 - 03/15/14 05:09 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution?
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Awhile back, I posted a thread about latency issues that I'm having with BIAB2014. In spite of patient and generous help from several on this forum, it was never completely resolved. In a nutshell, I experience slight but annoying latency using the MME driver. Switching to ASIO4ALL has not helped as I then get no sound from my MIDI keyboard thru BIAB at all. (Keyboard is a Yamaha DGX640). I've tried following the procedure outlined in PGMusic's Help video about Latency, but it hasn't helped. As a result, I have not used BIAB much at all.

Well, now I'm asking whether perhaps there's another (hopefully more reliable/foolproof) way to "skin the cat". Are there hardware options (the more reasonably priced, the better) that would resolve the latency issues I'm having? Perhaps something with it's own ASIO driver?

If so, I'd appreciate any specific links.

FWIW, my set-up is as follows: DGX-640 connects to Win7 laptop computer via USB. Laptop sound is output to Behringer Xenyx502 Mixer which outputs to either headphones or to M-Audio BX5 monitors.

It's also important to note that I use Pianoteq (separate and apart from BIAB) and there is no issue with latency (also using ASIO4ALL). So I definitely do NOT want any proposed hardware solution to compromise Pianoteq's presently excellent performance.

I know absolutely nothing about any possible hardware options, I'd appreciate any explanation on how/where in my set-up any such device be placed (ie - between piano and computer?; between computer and mixer?; etc.

My main goal is to reduce/eliminate latency when I use my keyboard with BIAB. A secondary goal (but not critical) is to improve the quality or even selection of overall sounds in the system. (Would that involve a hardware synth of some sort? And would that be a totally separate device?)

Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244147 - 03/15/14 06:14 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Since I use software synths and MIDI controllers with ASIO4ALL and BiaB on my laptop when travelling and very rarely have any issues with that, I'm thinking that the odd man out in your setup is the Pianoteq software.

So that is what I'd be investigating if I were you, maybe there are internal Settings inside the Pianoteq that need to be tweaked, or something like that.

To be positive that is the case, I'd temporarily invoke *other* MIDI software synths and test the latency with BB and those other synths with the setup, for if all the other software synths can be made to work without the latency issue, then the Pianoteq software would definitely be the place to investigate this.


--Mac
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#244150 - 03/15/14 07:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 600
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
I gave up a long time ago trying to eliminate latency from my keyboard when using BIAB and a soft synth. My keyboard line out goes to the mixer in parallel with the line out from a MIDI sound module (currently a SD50) which is driven by BIAB, and another line out from the computer to the mixer for real tracks. This works perfectly with no MME/ASIO issues to worry about.

Tony

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#244165 - 03/15/14 09:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: Mac]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Mac
Since I use software synths and MIDI controllers with ASIO4ALL and BiaB on my laptop when travelling and very rarely have any issues with that, I'm thinking that the odd man out in your setup is the Pianoteq software.

So that is what I'd be investigating if I were you, maybe there are internal Settings inside the Pianoteq that need to be tweaked, or something like that.

To be positive that is the case, I'd temporarily invoke *other* MIDI software synths and test the latency with BB and those other synths with the setup, for if all the other software synths can be made to work without the latency issue, then the Pianoteq software would definitely be the place to investigate this.


--Mac


Mac, I missing something about what you're suggesting. To clarify - Both BIAB and Pianoteq use ASIO4All. However, I DON'T run them at the same time. IOW, I'm running Pianoteq as a standalone, NOT as a VST plug-in, and not at the same time that I'm running BIAB. So, I don't see how Pianoteq would be interfering with BIAB in any way. (Maybe I'm missing something though....).

I don't particularly want to continue playing with settings inside BIAB. (As I mentioned earlier, I'm just tired of it....). But I'm willing to try to experiment with another MIDI software synth to verify your point, if that's still reasonable based upon what I just explained about how I'm using Pianoteq. What specific software synth would you suggest trying? - Is there one that's available as a free demo?

Thanks.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244167 - 03/15/14 09:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
The Standalone version and the VSTi version are two different animals, man.

If you don't want to get into the inner workings of the Pianoteq VSTi and experiment, then you aren't likely to find joy there at all, don't know what else to say about that.


--Mac
_________________________
PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
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#244168 - 03/15/14 09:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: Tony Wright]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Tony Wright
I gave up a long time ago trying to eliminate latency from my keyboard when using BIAB and a soft synth. My keyboard line out goes to the mixer in parallel with the line out from a MIDI sound module (currently a SD50) which is driven by BIAB, and another line out from the computer to the mixer for real tracks. This works perfectly with no MME/ASIO issues to worry about.

Tony


Thanks for the response about your set-up, Tony. I'm not sure whether that type of set-up would work for me though.

If I understand your configuration correctly - your keyboard is not connected to your laptop at all? If that's the case, while it would work for mixing the BIAB output and keyboard output, I wouldn't be able to use Pianoteq (alone) without reconfiguring some cables. (Pianoteq requires that the MIDI controller is connected to the laptop.)

Thanks.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244182 - 03/16/14 12:12 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
solidrock Offline
Expert

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1827
Here's the ASIO DirectX you can try
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Hardware/ASIO/


Register 32 bit
copy asiodxfd.dll file to C:\Windows\System32

goto C:\Windows\System32 click on cmd.exe

at prompt type RegSvr32 asiodxfd.dll
Restart


Register 64bit
copy asiodxfd.dll file to C:\Windows\SysWOW64

goto C:\Windows\SysWOW64 right click on cmd.exe run as admin

at prompt type RegSvr32 asiodxfd.dll
Restart

You can change Buffer size for delay, just click on it change, hit enter.


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#244188 - 03/16/14 02:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
solidrock Offline
Expert

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1827
The A53E should have Realtek audio, you can try this Realtek ASIO Driver: Realtek_ASIO_driver_v1.0.0.1.zip
You can adjust latency with the RTASIOCP.exe, might have to right click Run as Admin in Win7 ?
In Audio Stetting choose ASIO > Realtek

Register 32 bit
copy RTHDASIO.dll & RTLCPL.exe file to C:\Windows\System32

goto C:\Windows\System32 click on cmd.exe

at prompt type RegSvr32 RTHDASIO.dll

to un-register RegSvr32 /U RTHDASIO.dll

Restart


Register 64bit
copy RTHDASIO.dll & RTLCPL.exe file to C:\Windows\SysWOW64

goto C:\Windows\SysWOW64 right click on cmd.exe run as admin

at prompt type RegSvr32 RTHDASIO.dll

to un-register RegSvr32 /U RTHDASIO.dll

Restart

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#244224 - 03/16/14 08:58 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I have a number of hardware synths, and most of them have a latency of about 4-6ms - which is for all practical purposes, none.

I believe the Ketron SD2 has the best reputation, but I don't have one so I can't confirm.

I have an array of a half dozen sound modules and a couple of hardware samplers.

A lot of people are going to software synths, and I think that is affecting the hardware market. But I don't think they are ready for me yet - too much latency, too much CPU usage, and that limits how many I can mix together. And when I do mix them, each seems to have a different degree of latency, so they don't work together.

If I were to buy one today, I'd check out the ketron and buy it from a place where I could return it if I didn't like it.

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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#244241 - 03/16/14 09:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: solidrock]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Hey Solidrock, Thanks for the reply.

Because you posted two different messages, I'm a little confused. A few questions before I try your suggestions:

1. You posted about 2 different files (a file from ftp.steinberg.net and the Realtek ASIO driver). Are you suggesting that I install BOTH, or try the "Steinberg" alone first, and then install the Realtek driver if the first one alone doesn't do the trick? Or only try them one at a time?

2. Will either of these negatively effect ASIO4All which I'm successfully using with Pianoteq (standalone)? Is it OK for a Win7 system to have all 3 files (the Steinberg file, the Realtek file, and ASIO4All) installed concurrently, or is this asking for trouble?

3. Can any of these files be uninstalled easily thru Windows Uninstall function, if need be?

If any of these are successful, I wouldn't need to looks for a hardware solution (and save me some $$$, which is always good).

Thanks!
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244243 - 03/16/14 09:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: Notes Norton]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Thanks for the recommendation, Notes. I may give that a try after first trying some of the software solutions suggested by Solidrock.

I was hoping to read some useful customer reviews of the Ketron SD2 on Amazon, but there are only three and none are very enlightening unfortunately.

Thanks again.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244248 - 03/16/14 10:11 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
I've used -- and loved the sounds -- of the Ketron SD2 since it came out.

Great little MIDI solution, don't let the small size and ease of operation fool you, that is a plus.

When using it out live, lots of other keyboardists ask me what I'm using for my piano sound.


--Mac
_________________________
PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
www.audiominds.com

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#244306 - 03/16/14 02:10 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: Mac]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Mac
I've used -- and loved the sounds -- of the Ketron SD2 since it came out.

Great little MIDI solution, don't let the small size and ease of operation fool you, that is a plus.

When using it out live, lots of other keyboardists ask me what I'm using for my piano sound.


--Mac


Hmmm...Excellent sound, Ease of Operation....An endorsement from you certainly trumps any Amazon Customer Reviews, Mac. Something to consider....

Thanks!
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244314 - 03/16/14 04:17 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
MarioD Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11360
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: newbert
Originally Posted By: Mac
I've used -- and loved the sounds -- of the Ketron SD2 since it came out.

Great little MIDI solution, don't let the small size and ease of operation fool you, that is a plus.

When using it out live, lots of other keyboardists ask me what I'm using for my piano sound.


--Mac


Hmmm...Excellent sound, Ease of Operation....An endorsement from you certainly trumps any Amazon Customer Reviews, Mac. Something to consider....

Thanks!


A friend of mine has the SD-2 and IMHO it is by far the best sounding GM sound set that I have ever heard. Plus there are extra banks with it that also sound excellent!
_________________________
My mind is like my Internet browser: 19 tabs open, 3 of them are frozen & I have no idea where the music is coming from.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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#244316 - 03/16/14 05:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: solidrock]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Originally Posted By: solidrock
The A53E should have Realtek audio, you can try this Realtek ASIO Driver: Realtek_ASIO_driver_v1.0.0.1.zip
You can adjust latency with the RTASIOCP.exe, might have to right click Run as Admin in Win7 ?
In Audio Stetting choose ASIO > Realtek

Register 32 bit
copy RTHDASIO.dll file to C:\Windows\System32

goto C:\Windows\System32 click on cmd.exe

at prompt type RegSvr32 RTHDASIO.dll

to un-register RegSvr32 /U RTHDASIO.dll

Restart


Register 64bit
copy RTHDASIO.dll file to C:\Windows\SysWOW64

goto C:\Windows\SysWOW64 right click on cmd.exe run as admin

at prompt type RegSvr32 RTHDASIO.dll

to un-register RegSvr32 /U RTHDASIO.dll

Restart


Solidrock - I did manual installations of both the DirectX ASIO DLL and the Realtek Audio DLL. Latency is about the same (but I do get sounds now when I hit the keys on my keyboard), and there are two other issues:

1.) I get a message that says: "The currently installed soundcard driver does not support Direct Sound Input. Audio Recording is not possible." when I'm in the MIDI/Audio settings dialog in BIAB.

This is confirmed in the Windows Sound settings which indicates that there is no recording device installed. (It shows "No audio devices installed" under "Record"). It has always been this way with this laptop. Am I missing some kind of sound input driver?

2. In terms of adjusting the latency using the "RTASIOCP.exe" file - Exactly where should that file be installed? When I highlight Realtek ASIO, then click on "ASIO Driver Control" in BIAB, I either get nothing popping up or a yellow "Error" box. I think that's because this "RTASIOCP.exe" file isn't where it should be.

Can you (or anyone) provide any insights to these questions?

Thanks!
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244322 - 03/16/14 06:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Originally Posted By: newbert
Originally Posted By: solidrock
The A53E should have Realtek audio, you can try this Realtek ASIO Driver: Realtek_ASIO_driver_v1.0.0.1.zip
You can adjust latency with the RTASIOCP.exe, might have to right click Run as Admin in Win7 ?
In Audio Stetting choose ASIO > Realtek

Register 32 bit
copy RTHDASIO.dll file to C:\Windows\System32

goto C:\Windows\System32 click on cmd.exe

at prompt type RegSvr32 RTHDASIO.dll

to un-register RegSvr32 /U RTHDASIO.dll

Restart


Register 64bit
copy RTHDASIO.dll file to C:\Windows\SysWOW64

goto C:\Windows\SysWOW64 right click on cmd.exe run as admin

at prompt type RegSvr32 RTHDASIO.dll

to un-register RegSvr32 /U RTHDASIO.dll

Restart


Solidrock - I did manual installations of both the DirectX ASIO DLL and the Realtek Audio DLL. Latency is about the same (but I do get sounds now when I hit the keys on my keyboard), and there are two other issues:

1.) I get a message that says: "The currently installed soundcard driver does not support Direct Sound Input. Audio Recording is not possible." when I'm in the MIDI/Audio settings dialog in BIAB.

This is confirmed in the Windows Sound settings which indicates that there is no recording device installed. (It shows "No audio devices installed" under "Record"). It has always been this way with this laptop. Am I missing some kind of sound input driver?

2. In terms of adjusting the latency using the "RTASIOCP.exe" file - Exactly where should that file be installed? When I highlight Realtek ASIO, then click on "ASIO Driver Control" in BIAB, I either get nothing popping up or a yellow "Error" box. I think that's because this "RTASIOCP.exe" file isn't where it should be.

Can you (or anyone) provide any insights to these questions?

Thanks!


LATENCY SUCCESS AT LAST!!!!

I don't know what happened, but in the time it took for me to write the above post the latency went away! I've closed/re-started BIAB since then, then did the same with the laptop and the latency is now just fine! I hope it continues to be the case. If so, question #2 above is moot. smile

However, I still can't record (Question #1), so could still use some help with that.

Thanks!
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244328 - 03/16/14 08:18 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4047
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Vista, Win7 and Win 8 operating systems disable the "record what you hear" or "stereo mix" feature but it's pretty easy to enable the feature.

Right click on the speaker icon near the system clock to open up a sub menu and select the "Recording devices" option.

Once the Recording devices window opens, right click in a blank area where there is no writing to open another sub menu.

Put checkmarks to enable "Show Disabled Devices" and "Show Disconnected Devices"

Back in the Recording devices window, right click on the stereo mix option and enable the option.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (520) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#244334 - 03/16/14 10:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: Jim Fogle]
newbert Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/30/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Upstate NY, USA
Originally Posted By: JimFogle
Vista, Win7 and Win 8 operating systems disable the "record what you hear" or "stereo mix" feature but it's pretty easy to enable the feature.

Right click on the speaker icon near the system clock to open up a sub menu and select the "Recording devices" option.

Once the Recording devices window opens, right click in a blank area where there is no writing to open another sub menu.

Put checkmarks to enable "Show Disabled Devices" and "Show Disconnected Devices"

Back in the Recording devices window, right click on the stereo mix option and enable the option.


Interesting.....Why on earth would this be disabled by default (and so unintuitive to activate)?

This worked exactly as you described, Jim. Thanks! smile
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.

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#244335 - 03/16/14 10:45 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
solidrock Offline
Expert

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1827
Copy RTLCPL.exe to the same location as RTHDASIO.dll that should give you the Realtek ASIO Control Panel from the audio settings.

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#244646 - 03/18/14 08:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tired of My Latency Issues w/BIAB2014 - Is There a Hardware Solution? [Re: newbert]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6561
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Newbert, I've said this so many times and I'm laughing right now. Been there, done that. It's a good thing I still have thick hair or I'd be bald by now from all the hair pulling over this stuff.

You have to turn yourself into a computer nerd to work with digital audio. Just the way it is because we're maybe 3% of the market so nobody cares about us except us. This is all easily dismissed with the old farts wave of the hand while mumbling "it's hacker crap". Yes it is and don't worry about the why's or any of that just take notes and learn it.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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