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I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.
I would like to see the evidence of that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Life_Expectancy_2008_Estimates_CIA_World_Factbook.png
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DTuna
What I see is a web site developed according to "anyone can contribute".
I really don't take what's on the web as evidence of anything. "Your Honor...I saw it on the web"!
It's also quite possible that people live longer in spite of the type of health care, not because of it.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.
I would like to see the evidence of that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Life_Expectancy_2008_Estimates_CIA_World_Factbook.png
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DTuna
What I see is a web site developed according to "anyone can contribute".
I really don't take what's on the web as evidence of anything. "Your Honor...I saw it on the web"!
It's also quite possible that people live longer in spite of the type of health care, not because of it.
REFERENCES are at the bottom on the main page which was linked to in the chart.
Main Page
DTuna
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Most countries who have socialized medicine don't have the illegal immigrant population we have. It can't be proven because those people don't like to be counted in a census but it makes intuitive sense that this is true. You allow in millions from third world countries with basically no health care and it's going to skew the stats as far as life expectancy and infant mortality is concerned. There's been a spike in TB and other diseases that were not a problem 30 years ago. It makes sense to me that this is due to too many third world types making their way here without going through the medical checks they were doing on Ellis Island in 1915. Others will say it's due to a failure in our health care system. I don't think so. Just like big city schools, our health care system is simply overwhelmed by illegals. Again, can't prove it but I strongly believe it's a big factor.
Also the idea that if you can't pay, you don't get health care here is a myth. By law any ER in the country has to take care of you and if you're a poor person with no assets, you will never pay for anything, it's totally free. The problem lies with so many lower income people who are working, do have some things but no insurance. They can get care in the ER too but they will go after them for the bill and it throws some of those people into bankruptcy. Still, nobody has to die in the street, everybody will get care if they need it. I totally agree that it's not right that a person can own their house, happen to lose their job and their insurance and at the same time have a major medical problem and wind up either in bankruptcy or losing their house. Somehow this needs to be addressed but it's a hugely complex issue.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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The part that amuses me about the whole arguement was when an American friend who worked for Ford, where the company paid his health insurance and medical expenses like medications etc. told me that socialized medicine was a stupid thing. He could only go to certain doctors and hospitals, and everything was paid for.
Here, where they made universal health care a right, we have the same plan, but can go wherever we want. My doctor sees me either the same day or the next, and there are 3 walk in clinics within a few miles. It's not perfect, I have a minor cataract that bothers me if I drive at night, though I pass the night vision test. But in the US if I had the cash they'd fix it for sure. So when I get close I go on the list and it takes 2 or 3 months to get it done. But I don't pay. Any Canadian has the option to cross the border (have your passport), and buy any American health care they want.
The argument that poor people get whatever for free, but the problem is the illegal immigrants, is partly solved by the ID requirements for our health care. Photo ID card, and more and more integrated health care records would mean you could never go to the doctor. You have to have ID to get the ID.
I wish I was like my wife and father. Dad's 82 and never had an operation. Was sick for 2 years as a boy with shingles, but never missed a day's work from 17 to 72 when he retired. Never went to the doctor for over 30 years. My wife's only missed work to give birith, up to 30 years without a day off.
A friend of mine was supposed to have cataract surgery in Chicago, but was saving up the 4k required and worried he'd have to work to 70 because the other eye was going too.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I think my government should buy me a house, car, a boat,health insurance and a mistress....and bill it all to Canada.
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So, I'm wondering; if air is only 21% O and 78% N, then how much improvement would there be with pure nitrogen? And would it be cost effective. Most places I go, air is free, but nitrogen would not be, and if you weren't close to a nitrogen filling station, what would you do - dilute the nitrogen, then have to start over again? Cost effective - or a money grab by tire shops?
I have a modest RV, and I carry an air compressor because the tires take 65 psi, and if I develop a slow leak, I'm not stranded.
Glenn
I’m wondering the same thing myself. I have read that there is some anti-rust benefit when using Nitrogen as Oxygen and air moisture can expedite rim rusting. However I’ve driven a number of cars over 250K miles and I never had a rim rust out yet.
The biggest plus is that air is free. Or used to be as gas stations up here charge 50 cents, USD, to start the compressor  We also have our own compressor so air is still free for me 
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Quote:
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I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.
I would like to see the evidence of that.
Check this out. Compare the USA to France, Canada, England, Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Italy, - the other modern, industrialized countries that make up the bulk of our population, and if you want to include Hispanics, look at Cuba.
http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm
So if socialized medicine is so bad, why are the people in these countries living longer than us?
I admit, until I found this out, I too believed that private medicine was better, but looking at this one statistic shows that the media "talk radio dittohead" blitz against socialized medicine is nothing more than a corporationalist controlled campaign to keep the profit high for the US medicine system.
Leilani ran into a wall and put an inch long cut in her head. It required 5 stitches and cost $2,000.00 even with her self-pay discount. A doctor who stood at the foot of the bed for 5 seconds asked her how she was doing and immediately left charged her $800.00. Our health care system is broken, and the people funding the media want to make sure it stays broken, which is why you will hear the talk radio and political controlled TV tell all the "dittoheads" to repeat the mantra, socialized medicine is bad.
But if it was so bad, why are similar countries with socialized medicine living longer than us?
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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Seems everyone in my family lives to at least 90. No exceptions so far. Big problem is almost all of them spent the last 10 years in a rocking chair by the woodstove snappin beans and peeling potatoes. My wife's grandmother lived to 103. I hate to think what kind of run down person I'll end up, but I've got the wife making cushions for the chairs and I've a snazzy new orbisform butt protector for the piano bench.
Head gashes can be nasty and women don't like scars but I'd have to need more than 5 stitches to go to the emerg and get it done, even if it's free. I crazy enough to crazy glue it, it's only my head.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I'm guessing that the reason for that mick is that we have the highest murder rate on the planet by miles and miles. That...and we live hard and party harder...;)
That record belongs to South Africa today.
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Along with that must come the auto-assumption that life-span is linked to medical care.
In other words, one must first show causality or at least some hard link between the two.
Data.
We need data.
--Mac
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Not genocide.
The present-day murder rate in South Africa.
Look it up.
--Mac
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Sorry I started this but I was taken aback when CNN reported that 60 percent of people who go bankrupt in the US do so because of medical bills. I had 4 hospital overnighters the past year and based on what I hear I probably would have had to sell the house. 2 MRI's 3 Cat scans, a dozen xrays an specialists. YIKES.
Now if oil will just go back up maybe my retirement nest egg will hatch again. At $100 a barell I'm fine.
John Conley
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Along with that must come the auto-assumption that life-span is linked to medical care.
In other words, one must first show causality or at least some hard link between the two.
Data.
We need data.
--Mac
That's pretty much what I meant by evidence.
One could argue that third world countries have shorter life spans because of lack of health care.
It could also be lack of knowledge, lifestyle, infrastucture (water etc..) too many variables.
Not only do we need Data...Dr Beverly Crusher would be a help too!
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There are also those areas where so-called, "primitive" populations have exhibited long and even what might be labeled as "super-long" lifespans routinely for centuries to be considered...
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My daughter says I'm a neanderthal, does that count? I still think raw moose liver eaten about 10 minutes after the kill is better than steak.
John Conley
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Maybe you live shorter because you eat all this rubbish, like burgers. And theres so much artificial stuff in your food. I mean, of course there are Mc Donalds restaurants in Europe too. But in Austria you don`t get any burger stuff in other restaurant. I heard (dunno if it`s true) you can get burgers in almost every restaurant in the states.
just a thought...
Sandra
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Along with that must come the auto-assumption that life-span is linked to medical care.
I believe the average life span at the turn of the 20th century was about 40+ years of age. Today it's somewhere around 75.
I don't have hard statistics, but a few things come to mind.
After pasteurization of milk, the infant death rate dropped dramatically.
Years ago, many more women died in child birth. I believe better medical care accounts for most of the drop.
In my father's family, 10 or 11 siblings didn't get past 18 years of age, due to malaria in N.E. Arkansas. We don't hear of malaria in this country anymore. How about Yellow fever?
How about immunization for measles, diphtheria, etc. Has that not had an effect?
Don S.
Last edited by Curmudgeon; 06/07/09 10:41 AM.
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A doctor who stood at the foot of the bed for 5 seconds asked her how she was doing and immediately left charged her $800.00. Our health care system is broken, and the people funding the media want to make sure it stays broken, which is why you will hear the talk radio and political controlled TV tell all the "dittoheads" to repeat the mantra, socialized medicine is bad.
But if it was so bad, why are similar countries with socialized medicine living longer than us?
Notes
Good points here Notes. A bit of perspective on the $800 doctors bill. Most younger doc's are sitting on $200-300,000 in student loans that must be paid off. They are also paying several hundred grand a year in malpractice insurance. The biggest problem I have with Democrats in this area is the fact that they are owned by the trial lawyers who make literally millions in malpractice cases like our philandering former presidential candidate John Edwards. Ever see his house? 25,000 square feet.
I took the time some months ago to look up malpractice awards in Canada and I found a reference to a Canadian Supreme Court cast that capped it at something like $300,000 or so. I haven't studied this in depth so I could be wrong, maybe John can chime in on that. Whatever it is, I do know for a fact that no other country that we use as an example of health care has our legal tort system that allows for mega million dollar jury awards in malpractice cases. You notice there is nary a word about this in the current debate. It's because Obama is a lawyer, and the trial lawyers are the single biggest contributors to the Democratic party. You think the unions are big contributors, check out the lawyers. Between the schooling costs and malpractice insurance, there's your five minute $800 bill.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Maybe you live shorter because you eat all this rubbish, like burgers. And theres so much artificial stuff in your food. I mean, of course there are Mc Donalds restaurants in Europe too. But in Austria you don`t get any burger stuff in other restaurant. I heard (dunno if it`s true) you can get burgers in almost every restaurant in the states.
just a thought...
Sandra
That one did bring a smile to my face Sandra . . . the answer is yes we can get burgers in almost any restaurants in the US but we can also get any other type of food. Bottom-line is . . . If it sells you can buy it here. Are you telling us that in Austria restaurants are limited as to what they can put on a menu, or do other restaurants just choose not to offer them to their customers?
PS: If you are only getting McDonald’s version of a burger then you are really not getting burgers at all.
Later,
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