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#49352 - 12/14/09 09:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] What would you like in BIAB 2011?
Edward Buckley Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 812
Loc: Guadalajara, Mexico
Hi,

Now that BIAB 2010 is out, I thought I should start a thread about what features you would like to see in the next version? Here are my requests.......

1. New Streamlined GUI (Please, look at Garageband or Logic)

2. PPQ=960 for better midi timing.

3. Re wire capability

4. NOTATION improvments>Please, we need to have accurate notation (swing, triplets not shown correctly, etc) In fact, It would be awesome to have Sibelius like notation like Logic 9.

5. Multiple VST's in BIAB

.............................................................................................................................................................................................
Real Tracks/RD Wish list>

1. More Latin>Timba (the new salsa from Cuba) More Samba, Smooth Bossa, Songo, Brazilian Jazz fusion, etc

2. More Fusion>Tribal Tech, Mike Stern, Pat Methany, Jeff Lorber, George Duke etc with SOLO's!

3. Modern Funk/Hip Hop>Maxwell, D'angelo,

4. HORNS!>Earth Wind & Fire, Chicago, Blood Sweat & Tears, Tower of Power. We need Hits, Pads, swells, Falls, Trills, etc.

5. STRINGS!!>It would be awesome to have RT Strings.

OK, my 2 cents. Looking forward to reading your suggestions!
Ed

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#49353 - 12/14/09 10:35 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Edward Buckley]
MartinB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 4851
There is an interesting discussion going on at the -> Yahoo sister group. The community seems to be rather split. The common denominator appears to be -> take care of the BB core functionality, or lose quite a bunch of customers ...
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#49354 - 12/14/09 02:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: MartinB]
Edward Buckley Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 812
Loc: Guadalajara, Mexico
Hey Martin,

I'm not even aware of such a group. I have thought that there might be other groups on the net.

Thanks for the info, I will check it out.

Ed

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#49355 - 12/14/09 04:04 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Edward Buckley]
jford Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10362
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
The Yahoo group participants seem to be more interested in MIDI only, as I've noticed ever since RealInstruments came out. Nothing wrong with that, but I like my RealTracks. But I can see their point in that many of the new features are Real based, not MIDI based - no new MIDI styles, enhancements at the track level to accommodate RealTracks (but actually benefit MIDI tracks as well, but is not as apparent), no updated DXi synth (to replace the VSC, which doesn't work in the newer Windows), etc.

Folks on this forum seem well pleased at the RealTracks features; so it is interesting the difference.

I read postings from both the Yahoo group and here.
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#49356 - 12/14/09 05:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: jford]
alan S. Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Scotland
Well I'm a member of this forum and I'm not pleased with the direction the program is taking. I think PG took advantage of the dissatisfaction shown with the midi side of the product a few years back in a way gave him an eventual out- clause from midi altogether. But it wasn't 'no midi' that the program needed, but better midi.

Speculation abounded back then about how the program had not been written in a way that allowed for development of core midi functions in a cost-effective way without major knock-on effects.
I haven't the programming nous to comment on that and even if i had how would I know for sure? All I would like to see is a statement from PG that they do have the capability and the intention to develop the midi engine further because without that assurance why bother to ask for further changes?

For certain there's enough people who want to see 'real everything' with no tweakability or user defined parameters at all for PG to be able to ignore the midi guys completely and still say he's listening and keeping the customers satisfied.

Regards

Alan


Edited by alan S. (12/14/09 06:13 PM)

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#49357 - 12/14/09 07:17 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: alan S.]
alan S. Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Scotland
For those who haven't taken part in the debate at the Yahoo BIAB group here's the group's moderator and one of BIAB's biggest proponents, Alasdair Macrae Birch, expressing the same sentiments but much more eloquently :


".....What I find disappointing/sad is the move away from further development in terms
of midi. At one time in my life I was involved in the development of the midi
standard, and sadly PG Music have implemented only a fraction of what they
could. MIDI was developed to handle virtually any types of music that is played,
in any meters, etc. To start with BIAB's ppqn (parts per quarter note)
resolution is only 120, most now use at least 960, and they are not making use
of all the midi control data.

As said before, if my recording engineering students are right the price of high
quality virtual instruments will get radically cheaper. So sadly, what the users
who don't understand midi and have clamored
for the "real tracks" have done, is pushed the development in a
direction which does not really in the end enhance the core product.

A much better and more flexible real instrument sound could be achieved by using
the great sounds from companies such as Garritan and implementing more midi
control data at higher resolution.

To my mind a better deal would have been to enhance the core product and form
strategic business relationships/bundles with the virtual instrument producers.

Sadly the it "sounds cheesy" users have pushed PG Music, IMO, down a potential
evolutionary dead-end. While the rest of us wait for the further development of
core features and midi resolution/control data.
IMO, PG Music made the decision that they could pump up the sales more by
implementing "real tracks" after years of bashing their head against the brick
wall when users constantly complained about "cheesy sounds" (As many of us in
this group know, we share their exasperation!) I just hope we can get PG Music
back on track......"


Edited by alan S. (12/14/09 07:20 PM)

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#49358 - 12/15/09 09:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: alan S.]
cressjl Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 686
Loc: Blue Ridge of Virginia
I would have to agree with Alasdair's concerns. I raise the issue even above the core MIDI engine (even though I share these concerns and have expressed them in the past).

I often wonder how long my awe with RealTracks will last. They are impressive, but not that impressive; they are good, but not that good...

There are many times that I have to thow out a RealTrack instrumentalist because he cannot follow the leadsheet in a reasonable way--either that or dumb down the chords significantly; e.g., the Pedal Steel, which is good for only the simplest chord patterns. In other words, the RealTracks are driving the arrangement and not the other way around.

The RealDrums substitute great sound, at least for a while, until you notice that a lot of creativity went into the MIDI drum pattern underneath that actually follows the style, not some standardized conglomeration. I find myself forcing MIDI drums more often than not.

Another example of low-hanging fruit left to rot would be the MIDI soloists. Virtually unusable for anything that I know of in their current state, nevertheless these soloists had a lot of potential. We will most likely never know how MIDI soloists could have been developed algorithmically to play like the RealTracks without needing the RealTracks in the first place. I would have been happy to find a Pedal Steel sound that would work with a soloist that modeled the playing of a Pedal Steel player precisely. The elusive fiddle player, no doubt would be hard to find but certainly worth the search; we'll probably never know the MIDI contribution in counterpart.
_________________________
Joel

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#49359 - 12/16/09 02:22 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: cressjl]
musicbyenz Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/14/07
Posts: 10
I must frankly say that I am very disappointed that Rewire is again NOT included in the 2010 version. The Daw Plugin makes it sound so, but it is only a conversion tool.

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#49360 - 12/16/09 11:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: musicbyenz]
Fivehands Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 46
Loc: Toronto
This thread has pretty well laid to rest my anxiety about wishful thinking. I have scoured through this program and its styles many times looking for a suitable MIDI track and/or Real Track generated for my original stuff, and usually the best I can get from MIDI is a fairly suitable bass pattern that I can edit and make use of in Cubase. Once in a while a simple keyboard track but not very often. A couple of times I got a pretty good pedal steel backing track for a Real Track and once, quite by accident I got a blues harp track that I was able to successfully use on a pop tune. I could never get the acoustic guitars to sound right because of the quaver in them and I always did my own drum tracks with Roland V drums, using Battery 3 and Ocean Way Drums as the sounds. Guitars I did myself too, not great but I could never find just what I was looking for in the Real Tracks. Oh yeah, and I could generate pretty good MIDI acoustic picking because I have Vir 2 Acoustic Legends as a sound plug in. But overall I feel the same way about the MIDI being left in the dust by PG Music. And for the Audiophile HardDrive upgrade at $299 I'm having a tough time justifying the cost for the amount of good tracks that I find useable, Real or MIDI. That being said, now with Melodyne DNA technology, the Real Tracks has more possibilities for editing than ever before, so I'm seriously doing a rethink of the whole situation, and over the next few days I'm going to see what the results are using DNA on Real Tracks.

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#49361 - 12/17/09 09:55 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Fivehands]
Edward Buckley Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 812
Loc: Guadalajara, Mexico
Fivehands,

As I understand it, Melodyne DNA will enable you to change ANY note in a wav file. I saw a Youtube video where they had recording of Chet Baker, they went in and changed all the notes of his solo, without changing anything in the Rhythm section! AMAZING. The uses of this are mind boggling.

That being said, what I think you are asking for is the ability to make your OWN Real Tracks, something that isn't yet possible. Real Drums however can be made. Let's hope Peter decides to make this feature for RTs, it would be a great resource and possible 3rd party opportunity.

Ed

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#49362 - 12/17/09 10:34 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Edward Buckley]
Cerio Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 790
Loc: Spain
Integrating the Melodyne DNA technology in BIAB and -specially- in Realband would be an incredible enhancement for both programs.

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#49363 - 12/17/09 10:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Cerio]
Tom R. Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 6
Would really like to see an easy approach to importing lyrics from the web (or a text document) and aligning them to individual bars and/or notes in BIAB/RB. Anything to avoid the tedium of typing in each word or cutting/pasting from text. Thanks.

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#49364 - 12/17/09 03:02 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Edward Buckley]
Vince Rooney Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 9
Having used PG products for many years, I have to say that they are a decade behind in terms of UI design. I just picked up the upgrade for BIB 2010 and I'm really disappointed that the interface and workflow continue to suffer. This product has a lot of potential but it is handicapped by it's UI graphics and workflow which make it look and feel "cheesy".

I wish PG would study the likes of Ableton, Apple, Native Instruments, Cakewalk, Steinberg and Propellerheads and update their product interfaces. Infragistics makes a wonderful set of libraries that I use for creating applications that have a native Vista/Windows 7 look.

The whole feel of BIB feels very loose and awkward to me. As a musician (part time/hobby) I own all of the above listed products and when I use one of the above products and then switch to a PG product, I feel like I stepped back to the 90's. It's really too bad because it keeps PG products from becoming "Pro" level. Sure there are many people who use them and who have become accustomed to the antiquated interface but it keeps them from getting serious consideration and that is disappointing after all these years.

Dear Santa,

I would also like to see the DAW built into BIB so that your creativity is recorded within a single app.

I would like to see features like "Guitar Pro", tab editing, creating and reading, maybe even read GPX files.

The whole management of "styles" needs a rework. It's not intuitive.

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#49365 - 12/17/09 03:49 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Vince Rooney]
Robh Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 4166
Loc: California
This seems to be the biggest cry is for a better looking GUI. It's is a mystery to me why this is so important. What difference does it make what it looks like, all the features are there. Comparing BiaB to Cakewalk sonar is not even reasonable. First off Cakewalk can't make an app, that does not have serious bugs in it. I read that forum daily, and it is one complaint after another about the serious flaws that go un fixed release after release, i am sure that the folks there would give up some of it's looks for a bit of stability. Plus over there they all clamour for, you guessed it a better look! You can not please everyone with the look of the GUI.

Secondly BiaB is NOT A DAW, it is an auto accompaniment program, it generates arrangements on the fly. Real Band is a DAW, it is the one that is to be compared to Sonar, Logic, Cubase, and there is no comparison. Sure those three are ahead in development since RB is new, and it's base PT is a simple entry level program. RB is however capable of far more now with the BiaB features that have been integrated. My guess is that as the next few years roll by it will get better and better.

Maybe they will rewrite the GUI, who knows. But remember even if they do it will not please everyone, plus let's not push for changes like at Cakewalk, and have the development run past the stability of the program.

Don't take this wrong i hear ya, but with the rapid development of these programs i would rather see attention to midi and VSTI, these are feature that everyone can use.
_________________________
Toshiba dual core Win 7 8 gig ram, BiaB, Realband, Studio one Professional, Melodyne, Gibson S-1, Carvin 980 Cobalt acoustic, Ovation legend 12 string, jazz bass clone, Fender Mustang III amp, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL interface, TC Helicon voiceworks.

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#49366 - 12/17/09 09:25 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Robh]
Vince Rooney Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 9
Rob,

You should re-read my post again.

As I explained, "I use all of those programs and would like to see BIB have a similar type of "workflow" and user interface "facelift". I also stated that "I would like to see a DAW added to BIB so that the accompaniment can be tracked with my own "real tracks" within the same program instead of being a plug-in to and existing DAW."

As far as complexity and functionality the programs I listed have far more features and functions and are prone to "bugs" related to the application as well as the "MS Windows" environment itself due to the nature of how it manages core API's with the installation of other programs and MS's own updates. Bottom line, Windows has never been a stable platform for anything including BIB. I program in it and deal with the issues all the time.

The reason why the UI is the biggest complaint is due the fact that it hasn't been keeping up with the evolution of the operating system. When you work on the MAC platform, all applications have a consistent application UI and user work flow. MS tries to offer the same but never quite get's it right because their system is more "open" then the MAC OS. If you look at the mainstream audio applications today, there is a standardized workflow and feel amongst the different applications. This allows for "ease" of use when switching between the different applications. Sure there are nuances that are related to each application but there is a consistent "feel" that that makes it relatively easy use them.

You also can look at the number of posts of people asking for "training" videos on how to use BIB and get the most out of if. This is because it has so many capabilities but they are not intuitive to grasp.

I don't know how many developers there are working on BIB and all the other products that they produce or the net resources that they available to them for development. I know how much time it takes to program an application and to add new features and deal with the bugs. It's a time consuming process. I do find it frustrating to run programs that I have bought like Jazz Guitar Master Class or Jazz Piano Master Class or any of the other PG products I own have their UI's display incorrectly whether it's an issue with screen resolutions on my equipment or color depth. It's also frustrating to see BIB 2010 come up looking like it's BIB 2000.

No need to beat this topic to death, when Team PG is ready to change it they will.....


Vince

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#49367 - 12/17/09 10:40 PM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Edward Buckley]
Fivehands Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 46
Loc: Toronto
Quote:

Fivehands,

As I understand it, Melodyne DNA will enable you to change ANY note in a wav file. I saw a Youtube video where they had recording of Chet Baker, they went in and changed all the notes of his solo, without changing anything in the Rhythm section! AMAZING. The uses of this are mind boggling.

That being said, what I think you are asking for is the ability to make your OWN Real Tracks, something that isn't yet possible. Real Drums however can be made. Let's hope Peter decides to make this feature for RTs, it would be a great resource and possible 3rd party opportunity.

Ed



Hi Ed,
Actually making my own Real Tracks wasn't really what I was trying to stress, but because I have such great VSTi plugins I would certainly like better MIDI tracks to be generated. Most of the time they sound clumsy and not very stylish and I think the development of MIDI generated tracks may have been abandoned now by PG in favour of Real Tracks. All I was saying about Real Tracks really is that I haven't found many usuable ones that I have tried to generate, according to my needs. But then maybe with some serious editing with Melodyne I could find more Real Tracks useable.

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#49368 - 12/18/09 07:45 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Fivehands]
manning1 Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Canada
vince...
frankly lots of the bloated modern gui's turn me off.
this whole phenomena is cos lots of youngsters grew
up on playing games on games systems in the past 2 decades.
what a lot of people dont understand is flashy gui's come at a cost also.
heres what i wrote to another poster.., to save me retyping.

--------------------------------------------------------------
now lets turn to the gui itself.
on this one imho pg are on a hiding to nothing imho.
ive used some of the flashy gui's in music daw software n fancy shmancy stuff.
as well you know, there is overhead with every bit of source code.
more features..result in more source code.
and frankly some of the new fancy gui's can be problematic on
earlier clunky pc's with old OS versions.
what i perceive is good old pg have tried to make it so the products will
not only work on the latest uber power pc's but also older pc's because
not everyone can afford a new i7 with all the bells n whistles.
the other problem is if pg redesign the gui..lots of long time users
might not like it cos they are used to it.
ah ah !! i hear some people say. so offer an option..new style and old style.
heck lets even let the user configure the gui anyway their hearts desire.
why not go the whole hog and include a gui generator just like one might find in
a programmers compiler.
BUT THAT POSES ANOTHER PROBLEM.
more source code and more bloat being but one problem.
and more maintenance of source code.
as i said pg are on a hiding to nothing.
this is one of the problems one encounters as a developer trying to keep
as many people in the world happy as possible.
ive been there done that with user bases myself many times in the past.
and the conclusion i came up with is ..
you can never keep everyone happy.

dont even get me started on programming on the pc mate, and the fact if one uses
cetain C++ compilers one has to deal with lovely big run times.
why werent the compilers designed to create stand alone executables ??
instead of needing big run times ??
(eg like purebasic.com with in line assembler).
someone can correct me if i'm wrong but its my understanding pg used
borland compilers in the past because with those no big run time
was needed. a logical choice imho at the time.

in summary your post is critical of certain pg aspects..
but in many respects dont you think many of those aspects
are a result of design and programmer tool decisions made way back in the development of win
itself ??
some people like the mac os. me i'm this way and that.
i like small elegant real time OS's like menuetos.org.
(give it a gander sometime.but no music software for it)
and feel that music software developers lives could have been made
a whole lot easier over the years with a proper elegant small OS
dedicated to the music creation vertical market with easy to use
development tools and of course most importantly a extremely fast low latency os kernel
relating to audio applications .
----------------------------------------------------------------
vince , an old saying in software engineering is ..
"mutton done up like lamb". meaning an application
that looks flashy on the surface, ..but might be hiding gremlins
under the hood so to speak.
frankly i'm always suspicious of flashy gui's for the reason above.
no matter...if people just wont take the time to read manuals,
and get stuck into an application and get down n dirty with it..
no amount of flash will help imho.
i would far sooner see pg expand the product concept
with more instrumernt types.
_________________________
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.

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#49369 - 12/18/09 08:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: manning1]
Vince Rooney Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 9
Well said. I'm not looking for eycandy but rather a more intuitive workspace.

Cheers manning1,

Vince

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#49370 - 12/18/09 08:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Vince Rooney]
cressjl Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 686
Loc: Blue Ridge of Virginia
Thanks, manning1...I agree.

It seems as if the most intensive programming efforts going on today are in skins, skinz, scinz, sckinzz, schinz, schinns...

All wrappers over pathetic mp3-level technology.
_________________________
Joel

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#49371 - 12/18/09 08:45 AM [Band-in-a-Box Wishlist] Re: What would you like in BIAB 2011? [Re: Edward Buckley]
cressjl Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 686
Loc: Blue Ridge of Virginia
Quote:

...That being said, what I think you are asking for is the ability to make your OWN Real Tracks, something that isn't yet possible....



Is this really true? I thought that I remember reading a tutorial on how to create your own RealTracks some time ago.

I don't remember exactly how it was done, but I DO remember that I decided it wasn't worth the trouble to do it!
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Joel

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floyd jane 103
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Today's Birthdays
alfstone, MusicStudent, Oren Fisher, Pete b