Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
90 dB #255512 07/06/14 12:02 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,153
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,153
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"I think Gary makes a lot of good points. What does one want from their monitors? I remember seeing a rep demoing Event 20/20s and saying "And this was mixed through these monitors", trying to impress everyone. The speakers sounded very good, but all mixes should sound their best on the monitors they were mixed through."


What, exactly, does that mean?

"all mixes should sound their best on the monitors they were mixed through"


The speakers 'sounded very good', because they are very good speakers. Mixes done on them translate. They are not Genelecs, or Meyers, but they translate.

How much do you want to spend on a song that probably shouldn't have been recorded in the first place? grin





The old computer axiom, GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Remember, the monitors are only one part of the chain. You can have great monitors, but if you can't mix worth a dime, then no matter what speakers you put them through, they're going to sound like crap.

When I first read "And this was mixed through these monitors", trying to impress everyone. The speakers sounded very good, but all mixes should sound their best on the monitors they were mixed through." I got the impression that the mix wasn't very impressive. So, poor sounds, poor mixing or recording, best monitors in the world still equates to a poor mix and a poor song.

A GOOD mix engineer can do wonders for a mediocre song, a mediocre mix engineer can destroy the most well recorded tracks.

Gary


I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
critter #255517 07/06/14 02:21 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
“A GOOD mix engineer can do wonders for a mediocre song, a mediocre mix engineer can destroy the most well recorded tracks.”



Actually, even a great mix engineer can't do anything for a mediocre song. It will just be a mediocre song that sounds better. A great song can overcome the shortcomings of a mediocre mix engineer. Plenty of examples of this phenomenon.



“Remember, the monitors are only one part of the chain. You can have great monitors, but if you can't mix worth a dime, then no matter what speakers you put them through, they're going to sound like crap.”


Thanks for the tip. I've only been recording for 35 years, so I appreciate the benefit of your expertise. grin

critter #255533 07/06/14 06:34 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Monitors for studio use are supposed to be flat but any listen side by side will tell you that they are not.

Here's the interesting thing. Critter called the JBL's "tin cans" .... compared to the others. We tend to like the music to fit what we think it should sound like. In many cases that equates to biased frequencies and not anywhere close to flat.

Perhaps the JBL's were in fact telling the "truth" in that room and with that particular music. Flat to most people isn't appealing. But as recording and mix engineers, you want FLAT.

I read somewhere that a certain major studio and engineer had a single NS-10 on the shelf that he used in the mixing stages. It sounded like crap since the mix was also in mono. But the goal was to hear the truth of the mix not for ear candy in the studio. His recordings and mixes were stellar.

Too often, a huge beginner mistake is to choose studio speakers that sound good (ear candy) and then the person wonders why their mixes never translate to the other systems very well.... car, stereo, etc....

Mixing on biased speakers gives you a disadvantage from the start. Oh sure, the mix sounds really sweet in the studio... YOUR STUDIO, but every other place the bass is too strong or too weak, the mids are too prominent or not enough, the highs will shatter glass or sound like they are under a wet blanket....and it comes from ear candy monitoring.

There is a solution, and probably the best is to learn the speakers you are using. ARC is also a handy fix to one degree or another. Mix at lower volumes as well.

My advice on choosing monitors is to get some that you DO like the sound from, and then learn their strengths and weaknesses. That's an essential part to getting a good mix on any monitors. I also suggest using a sub especially if you have 5" cones. A sub will help 8" cones as well. Again, learn the system with the sub and get it set up properly and balanced. There's nothing wrong with ear candy in the studio as long as the folks listing on the other systems can also get that "ear candy" experience.

Pick up a copy of Mike Seniors Mixing Secrets for the small studio. The first several chapters are specifically on speakers and sound in the small studio because, lacking good speakers, and/or not understanding the ones you currently have.... NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 07/06/14 06:36 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,260
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,260
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Too often, a huge beginner mistake is to choose studio speakers that sound good (ear candy) and then the person wonders why their mixes never translate to the other systems very well.... car, stereo, etc....

There is a solution, and probably the best is to learn the speakers you are using. Mix at lower volumes as well.


IMO....see above.

I downsized a couple years ago for several reasons.
I used my trusty JBL4410's for 19 years and they are still stellar monitors....just didn't fit my 'downsizing' goal anymore.
Given the total subjectivity (previously mentioned) of monitor choice I was back at the crossroads of what to choose now?
I went to GC which was only a mile away.
In the store I listened to the Events, Behringer Truths, one other I can't recall now and the KRK Rockit 8's.

With confidence, to my ears, I went with the KRK's 8's (249 each) which had a noticeably more even sound over the spectrum and a smoother bass response (bass - front ported).
I wanted the 8's to push more air with less effort and feel there is a better presence of the music compared to using 5.5's.

I put on my own CD and the translation was perfect....for my ears, in my recording environ.
As also touched on previously, garbage in-garbage out.
I'm not one to leave a track as is thinking I'll fix it in the mix.
I do the track over.

Carry on...

Last edited by chulaivet1966; 07/06/14 10:40 AM.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 662
critter Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 662
Okay, I've been doing a lot of overtime on this, Sweetwater is not going to carry the Focal alpha 50, that was my choice. That !@#%^&& me off, but what can you do. Now back to the selection, KRK rokit 5, Presonus Eris 5, Rokit 6, or Yamaha MSP 5. Take a poll and give the thumbs up to one of these. Thanks again for the input........


Critter
critter #255685 07/07/14 04:31 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
freq specs and amp power tell me the rockits (maybe the Yamahas if there were some other compelling reason), but I ain't heard these side by side.

Chances of your poll being accurate is off. We'd need to hear them all. Nevertheless I figured I'd point that one detail out. Presonus being 70Hz and above would be disconcerting to me. I'd assume I needed a sub. Otherwise I may be missing a lot.


Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
rharv #255706 07/07/14 10:05 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 662
critter Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 662
Spent a day......and came up with a must I say it, more money choice, that would be the Event 20/20 BAS, and I think that would be a good choice. Sweetwater said they will have the Focal Alpha 50, price point between the two is the same, $299.99 per speaker each, 5 inch woofer in the Focal and 7.1 in the Event. Any thoughts on those two? Thanks


Critter
critter #255740 07/08/14 05:03 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Side by side with all the other big brand names..... I chose the Mackie MR-5 speakers. $300 for the pair at the time.

To my ears, in that room, in an A/B comparison, they sounded the best.

I have since added a nice sub to the studio line up.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
critter #255744 07/08/14 05:26 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Originally Posted By: critter
Spent a day......and came up with a must I say it, more money choice, that would be the Event 20/20 BAS, and I think that would be a good choice. Sweetwater said they will have the Focal Alpha 50, price point between the two is the same, $299.99 per speaker each, 5 inch woofer in the Focal and 7.1 in the Event. Any thoughts on those two? Thanks



Between those two - no contest.

As I mentioned before, I have the original passive version of the Events. They are incredible near fields.

critter #255826 07/08/14 09:11 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 662
critter Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 662
I found a website called sonicsense.com which has side by side tests of speakers, if you are interested check it out. They have on the website a way you can also download the tests from soundcloud.com at I think is 44.1 16 and or 24 bits and you can test out the results on your own equipment. I'm sure some of you know of this site but just thought I would throw it out there.


Critter
critter #255841 07/09/14 05:56 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
The fact of the matter is that people are using every single brand and model of studio speaker ever made with success.

Of course we all like to think that we have the ultimate best speaker ever made when we decide to lay down our hard earned cash, but that's simply not true.

Every speaker, from the cheapest bottom of the line to the most costly top of the line will have strengths and weaknesses and unless you know and understand those aspects, the quality of the speakers won't matter much to your mixing.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again..... pick a brand and model and learn them. Don't fret that you don't have the best.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,260
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,260
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
pick a brand and model and learn them. Don't fret that you don't have the best.


IMO....see above....end of story. smile

critter #255864 07/09/14 10:26 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
You might also consider looking at the Focusrite VRM (Virtual Reference Monitor), which can simulate a number of monitors. I appears as out of stock my most retailer (not sure why, I've emailed Sweetwater to find out), but I see that it's still available at the Best Buy website for half price.

Edit: Sweetwater verified Focusrite VRM is discontinued. frown

I've got it, and it makes it easy to "try out" the mix on a wide variety of speaker systems. Sadly "car" isn't one of them.

In particular, it lets me see how badly a mix that sounds good on one set of speakers may sound on another set.

Last edited by dcuny; 07/09/14 12:48 PM. Reason: Got a response from Sweetwater

-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
dcuny #255910 07/09/14 10:28 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Originally Posted By: dcuny
You might also consider looking at the Focusrite VRM (Virtual Reference Monitor), which can simulate a number of monitors. I appears as out of stock my most retailer (not sure why, I've emailed Sweetwater to find out), but I see that it's still available at the Best Buy website for half price.

Edit: Sweetwater verified Focusrite VRM is discontinued. frown

I've got it, and it makes it easy to "try out" the mix on a wide variety of speaker systems. Sadly "car" isn't one of them.

In particular, it lets me see how badly a mix that sounds good on one set of speakers may sound on another set.


Here's a possible reason I believe that this product died: If I'm not mistaken, it's a USB audio device. If you are using a USB audio/midi interface, most DAW software can only play nice with one USB audio device at a time. This capability came in the Saffire Pro 24 DSP device as well.

Just found a Sound on Sound review confirming some suspicion of USB havoc, and a rather complicated workaround: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr11/articles/focusrite-vrmbox.htm

Dave, how do you use your VRM box?

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Originally Posted By: rockstar_not
Dave, how do you use your VRM box?

I used it to test my mix in Reaper via headphones. I haven't touched the S/PDIF port at all.

I was getting a mix I thought was good, and then taking a CD out to my car and having it sound terrible. The VRM Box helped cut that cycle down.

I still wish it had a "car stereo" simulator - that's the one simulated space that seems a no-brainer.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
critter #255957 07/10/14 03:48 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
"a "car stereo" simulator - that's the one simulated space that seems a no-brainer"

I would disagree with that. Once you start simulating a car it becomes *which* car dilemma (and exponential variables).
Honda with Alpine? Cruze with stock? LE or EX model?? (could be different radio and speaker specs)

I wouldn't want to touch it. Not only are you trying to simulate speaker response you'd be trying to emulate environment. And making an 8X8 room sound like a car interior would be much different than a 12X16 room, and much different than headphones .. nope, not so easy as it sounds at first.
Just my thoughts/opinion.


Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
rharv #255969 07/10/14 07:04 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Originally Posted By: rharv
.. nope, not so easy as it sounds at first.

Sorry, I meant no brainer as an option, not as in "easy to do." Hopefully having run through a series of different speakers, the mix should translate well.

If you were simulating a car, you'd also need "freeway noise", "busted muffler" and "arguing children in the back" options as well.

After I got an email from Sweetwater saying the VRM Box was discontinued, I got an email from Focusrite technical support saying that it not discontinued. Now I'm really confused... crazy


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
dcuny #255972 07/10/14 08:26 PM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Originally Posted By: dcuny

After I got an email from Sweetwater saying the VRM Box was discontinued, I got an email from Focusrite technical support saying that it not discontinued. Now I'm really confused... crazy



Dave,

This company, Sonic Sense, in Denver buys direct from Focusrite's US distributor. My Scarlett 18i8 that I bought through them came directly to my house from the distributor. Sometimes they sell stuff used that they take back on return. If you want another, give them a call.

http://www.sonicsense.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=vrm

Note, that the VRM box does not show up in their listing. It is current on Focusrite's site. No other US based online retailers have it available from what I can tell.

Here's an alternative way to simulate different speaker playback over headphones:
http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/

The guy who programmed this plugin is a DSP genius - you likely use some of his code daily. When I used to do binaural recording and analysis for General Motors, I became acquainted with Jeroen's work and we e-mailed back and forth a few times about the fact that many people perceive binaural recordings as louder than mono recordings, even when the SPL vs. time is the same between the two recordings.

Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,576
I think I'm good for now.

I just thought it was odd for the manufacturer and dealers to be at odds. Sweetwater got back to me, confirming that it's discontinued.

It's just bizarre. I'd guess they don't want to announce that it's discontinued so they'll be able to sell off the backstock.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
critter #256166 07/12/14 05:17 AM
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,301
When you finally learn how to mix properly, the mixes you produce will sound reasonably good on every system they are played on. It's the amateurs who mix to their "studio" speakers and then play it in a car and are disappointed by the unbalanced mix.

Do you seriously think the big mixing studios have the time to model every single environment where a song might be played? Absolutely not. They know what they are doing and they use one set of monitors consistently. Some of them may take the time to "check the mix" (probably spot checking) on a mono rig. I'm sure some do, but most of them know what they're doing and don't need to, or have the time, to check their work on a dozen different speakers or environments.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

Happy Easter! Holiday Hours...

2024 is well underway - it's already Easter Weekend!

Our Customer Service hours this weekend are:

Friday, March 29: 8-4
Saturday, March 30: 8-4
Sunday, March 31: closed

Regular hours resume Monday, April 1st - no joke!

Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,399
Posts732,551
Members38,442
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
danielsk, Mark Morgan, zagrajbarke, Ernest J, Izzy
38,442 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 199
Al-David 132
DC Ron 115
rsdean 85
dcuny 83
Today's Birthdays
(charlie), WobblyGstring
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5