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I am interested in knowing how many of you BIAB users have recorded original songs (primarily using BIAB) and then SOLD those songs on iTunes or CDBaby.

A little further explanation: I am currently engaged in a songwriting project creating songs that are meant for singing in progressive Christian churches. In other words, I write liberal, modern day "hymns" meant to be played by "worship bands" in churches. The purpose of recording the music is to create a resource for real musicians and church leaders to use for their programs. This is a different style of writing than the singer/songwriter or original band songs that are written to get air time or be listened to in their own right. Writing hymns/church songs is more like writing a score or piece of music for a film. Or maybe even a bit like writing a jingle! That is, the music is not simply a piece of creative and inspiration art, it is created with a specific purpose and within defined parameters, and with the purpose of conveying a message, or equipping people to express an idea by singing it.

So my question to the BIAB community is really 2-fold. 1) are there any of you singer/songwriter types who have written some original music and then "published" your BIAB recordings through a commercial medium (like iTunes, CDBaby etc). And 2) do you think it is possible to use BIAB recordings (rather than studio productions) to publish songs through iTunes or CDBaby as "demos" for the purpose of teaching songs for congregational singing to musicians leading music in churches (assuming the chord chart, tabs, etc will also be provided via on a web site).

One final thing - my question is not whether it is a good marketing strategy - there is a separate plan to make people aware of the music and how to get it. The question is: Are BIAB recordings "good enough" to sell commercially as downloads, in general, and more specifically, for the application that I have described. (All of this assumes quality songwriting and skillfully created rendition of the song in BIAB).

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions and experience in this topic.

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I know someone who uses band in a box backing tracks to perform his music in church, he also uses band in a box in his recording studio, for his own music as well as for paying customers who use his studio. He has done well. He had one song a few years ago that was played on a local Christian radio station that was the most requested Christian song of the year for that station, more requested than, Jesus Take The Wheel, and Believe by Brooks and Dunn, it was all band in a box instrumentation. It depends on the ability to mix the song and make it ready for airplay, but yes band in a box is more than capable of making excellent professional quality recordings. I'm sure some of the other gals and guys can attest from their own experience. Hope this helps!


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Hi Joe and welcome to the most friendly helpful forum in the world!

I agree with Robert when he said that it depends on the ability to mix the song but would also add that the ability to record good vocals is also important (given good song-writing of course).

There a loads of folks on this forum who sell their BIAB creations through iTunes and CD Baby. I am sure they will chip in.

I am busy with my first commercial release of an album that will be 100% BIAB so time will tell if it will work for me.


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1) are there any of you singer/songwriter types who have written some original music and then "published" your BIAB recordings through a commercial medium (like iTunes, CDBaby etc).

= Yes, and backing tracks for live performances too.

2) do you think it is possible to use BIAB recordings (rather than studio productions) to publish songs through iTunes or CDBaby as "demos" for the purpose of teaching songs for congregational singing to musicians leading music in churches (assuming the chord chart, tabs, etc will also be provided via on a web site).
= Yes.

Are BIAB recordings "good enough" to sell commercially as downloads, in general, and more specifically, for the application that I have described. (All of this assumes quality songwriting and skillfully created rendition of the song in BIAB).

= Yes

BIAB will not be the weakest link in any of these endeavors. The live instruments and vocals as well as post production will be.

BIAB will not make a poorly live instrument or weak vocal good. Spend the studio time money you save by using BIAB and creating tracks at home on hiring professionals for the things you do not do well. If you record quality, clean tracks and then have them professionally mixed and mastered by a 'real' professional, it will not matter whether the track is created 'live' or with a Biab real track or realistic midi instrument.

It would likely startle you to learn how many 'home studio' tracks are on mainstream album releases.


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This is an observation not as a BIAB user, but as a listener - so take this for what it's worth.

What I have noticed with SOME folks using BIAB, is that they still do not have an ear for orchestration and arrangement.

There may be fiddle and piano solos happening simultaneously, because that's what BIAB output provided, but it's not how a true band would play together on a recording or even a live gig. Or the song will have no dynamics over it's course, because there was no effort put into arranging the orchestration of the song so that it has build, tension and release. Individual tracks sound outstanding from RealBand tracks in particular - but there is still responsibility for the person putting the song together, to give the song some life throughout it's course.

Listen to any well crafted song in any genre and you will not hear all the parts all of the time. Some are reserved for verses, chorus, bridge, etc. PGfantastic mentioned "Jesus Take The Wheel" Listen to that song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lydBPm2KRaU - you hear a fiddle on the intro, but immediately in the 1st verse, the fiddle drops out. It comes back in on the 2nd verse. Then on the pre-chorus, notice the build into the chorus. Then the chorus has lots of strings, multiple vocal lines, pedal steel, etc. and then it drops right back to the very simple instrumentation of the intro. Verse 3 changes feel to a rhythm guitar (or maybe strummed fiddle or mando) providing the underlayment. Next chorus is big again, adding in a little more electric guitar this time, then there's a big instrumental section featuring electric guitar into the next chorus, where the electric guitars drop out, and we're back to even simpler than the intro for the outro, but trading off between several instruments.

That's the dynamics I'm talking about that I don't hear in SOME BIAB/RB created songs. It certainly can be done with these tools, but it would take planning and arranging to accomplish it. When you do hear an outstanding BIAB/RB song, it will likely have this extra effort put into it.

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This thread is on page 2 of this forum... it might help answer your questions...

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=258846#Post258846


(btw... Charlie - thank you so much for your detailed assessment - I do appreciate it - a lot...)

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The simple answer is no -- well not at first! It takes learning, experimentation and practice. Dynamics, dynamics, dynamics is the thing that rockstar_not harped on above and I agree with him. BIAB doesn't do the dynamics for you, you have to figure that out yourself.

Having said that, there are a couple of folks (Floyd comes to mind) that can make pro level recording with BIAB and do it on a regular basis. But that is a skill that has to be learned. Plus you have to have great songs (not just good) and BIAB doesn't help with that either.

Good luck, you can do it if you study and have great tunes.


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If you have a hammer, nails and wood can you build a house? Some can...some cannot! I agree with Scott and Kevin above. BIAB provides some damn good tools that can be used to produce professional results or to produce, let's say, "less than professional results"! It's not the tool...it's how you use it!

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Thanks for your input folks. Very helpful. I should add that I am a semi-professional musician and play guitar for a blues/soul singer songwriter. We perform 5 times this weekend as headliners in a blues festival with 50,000 in attendance. So I am not new to songwriting, playing or recording.

My question was more about your opinions about the tool itself, and what success you folks have had. That's why I said "assuming good songwriting" etc. Of course you need the skills and "raw material" - with bricks, wood and hammer you still need the skills to build a house, but if all you have is straw and mud, skills won't take you as far.

Other than on this forum, there is lot of poo-pooing BIAB as a recording and production tool out there on the net. The main complaint is that the realtracks are all based on a limited number of musical phrases. (However, to be fair, most studio musicians have a limited number of phrases too ... or at least a selection of favourites).

So your responses have been great! Thank you. As an experienced musician, but less experienced with recording engineering/production, my biggest take-away from this discussion is: 1) make sure the vocals are killer and 2) spend the money on professionals to do what they do best: polish arrangements, and edit the post-production in a studio. Fortunately, my friend, producer Dan Cutrona, will be helping me with that.

Thanks all.

ps. I probably won't be the vocalist in final versions :-)

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Originally Posted By: Joe Ramsay
My question was more about your opinions about the tool itself, and what success you folks have had. That's why I said "assuming good songwriting" etc. Of course you need the skills and "raw material" - with bricks, wood and hammer you still need the skills to build a house, but if all you have is straw and mud, skills won't take you as far.

Hey Joe!

Sorry if my response sounded snarky in any way...that was not my intent. What I meant to convey is that BIAB does indeed give you the tools to produce pro music but there is a lot of work that goes into getting from the "box" to the CD! smile

A couple of your points interested me as I have only used the product for a couple of years now and I had lots of the same questions as you.

Quote:
Other than on this forum, there is lot of poo-pooing BIAB as a recording and production tool out there on the net.

I have also noticed this attitude about BIAB around the internet. And some of the criticisms have some merit. For example, the GUI is often criticized, and even though there were recent improvements made, this product's GUI still feels like Windows 3.1! And the program has been around for so long that it is inevitable that there are tons of little features and options and settings scattered all over the place. This is a huge turn-off to many people, especially younger folks who love sleek and easy-to-use software that not only does its intended job but looks great doing it!

I suspect another reason for this is the demographic for BIAB currently is more "mature" musicians! smile There are very few, if any, cool, young turks around these forums mixing it up and talking about modern music styles and trends. Lots of us are here talking about how great the music was in the good ol' days, asking for more classic country and jazz styles and complaining about the kids on our lawns (I mean no offense and I am including myself in this silly generalization about our mature generation!!!)

Quote:
The main complaint is that the realtracks are all based on a limited number of musical phrases.

Again, there is some truth to this complaint. The RealTracks are indeed based on a limited number of musical phrases and the styles, while immensely helpful to noobs like me, just increase the odds that your "original" song will sound an awful like the songs of other BIABers! But PG provides a very large number of RealTracks and you can mix and match them to your hearts content. Plus you can always export them and do major edits to them in your DAW to further "uniquify" them. And, as I am recently learning, you can do some pretty amazing stuff with MIDI in BIAB if you have some great sample libraries!

Quote:
most studio musicians have a limited number of phrases too ... or at least a selection of favourites.

Very good point! Should I not use a Les Paul guitar because so many folks have already done that? How about a standard drum kit? Same old same old?

For me the bottom line is this is a truly amazing tool and nothing even compares to it currently. The stuff I hear from Garageband sounds stiff and formulaic. While songs that are carefully crafted using BIAB sound lifelike and true and simply amazing! Yes, the GUI still needs some work and yes, if you only use BIAB to produce quick backing tracks they may sound a little familiar but if you put in the effort you can create amazing music with this product and no one will know if it is "live or Memorex"!

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Originally Posted By: Joe Ramsay


So my question to the BIAB community is really 2-fold. 1) are there any of you singer/songwriter types who have written some original music and then "published" your BIAB recordings through a commercial medium (like iTunes, CDBaby etc). And 2) do you think it is possible to use BIAB recordings (rather than studio productions) to publish songs through iTunes or CDBaby as "demos" for the purpose of teaching songs for congregational singing to musicians leading music in churches (assuming the chord chart, tabs, etc will also be provided via on a web site).

Are BIAB recordings "good enough" to sell commercially as downloads, in general, and more specifically, for the application that I have described. (All of this assumes quality songwriting and skillfully created rendition of the song in BIAB).

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions and experience in this topic.


I will answer an unabashed MAYBE.

Let me explain. The tracks BiaB gives you are generally pretty stiff and bland sounding compared to what you need in the real world. Using Real Band to render ALL the tracks to audio moves you up the ladder a step or two.

At this point, you still have raw tracks. These raw tracks need proper quality polishing and editing to get them ready for prime time.

Knowing what you're doing when it comes to production.....what instruments should be playing and what ones should not be at a given time in the song, volume levels of the tracks, FX like reverb, delays, compression and EQ and how much to use and where, how the vocals set in the mix, and are the vocals pro sounding??? are the vox in tune or off key, are the harmonies synced with the lead vox????? all these things, and more, are the things that will determine whether the songs are ready for prime time or not.

SO if you know what you're doing, and just because you play music 5 days a week doesn't necessarily make you a producer..... then yes, it is possible to create radio ready music with BiaB.

For a feel of what can be done.....check out the users forum. there, you will hear everything from the raw track demos that need lots of tender loving care up to the professionally sounding ready for radio stuff that some of the folks here are capable of producing.

I personally do not post my songs for sale to the public. I do however, plug my songs to publishers and libraries for use on artists CD's and for Film & TV. Film & TV require broadcast quality music..... no excuses and nothing that is "demo quality". I have a large number of songs signed by both publishers and libraries. All of it contain Biab tracks.

Take a few minutes and click on my web site link and then My Music link and listen to some of the tunes I have recorded and produced in my studio using Biab as the basis of the songs.

So..... MAYBE..... but once you learn how to produce the music and master it properly.....maybe becomes ......a SOLID YES.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/21/14 12:34 PM.

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" do you think it is possible to use BIAB recordings (rather than studio productions) to publish songs through iTunes or CDBaby as "demos" for the purpose of teaching songs for congregational singing to musicians leading music in churches (assuming the chord chart, tabs, etc will also be provided via on a web site)."




Yes. BIAB will do this for you. It's also a fantastic songwriting tool.

Radio-ready CD release that can compete in the market with studio recordings done with pro players and a good producer? No.

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Joe,

I put my response up there because good songwriting doesn't necessarily mean good arranging or good orchestration. I was talking about the latter two. There are many good songwriters who have no idea how to arrange a song or orchestrate a song.

Heck, Brent Mason is one of the guitarists used on Real Band tracks - it doesn't get any better than that.

-Scott

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Joe,

I think you've gotten some wonderful and informed responses. However, I think the responses have been somewhat guarded due to the lack of details regarding the division of labor between you and Dan Cutrona for this project. Without having an idea of your strengths and weaknesses using Band-in-a-box, your role in the project, Dan's role, the project budget and who has final decision authority it's difficult to say just how much BIAB recordings CAN contribute to the project. At least in my opinion, the results can wind up across the board from not acceptable and leaving a bad taste in the mouth to award winning.

What I'm saying is there needs to be as much thought, care and energy spent on project planning as will be spent implementing the project. Sure, you've got your set list and know which songs may sound better with a female vocalist, male vocalist or you. Maybe you have an idea of the structure for each song and how long each will last but ... what if?

You've got a high energy, up tempo, toe tapping song and you can't build a good ending? Instead of the typical two or four bar ending you may need to run the last chorus twice so the ending can be faded.

You find a really good John Jarvis piano midi supertrack that works perfectly but your midi sounds stink? Does Dan have a good sound library? Is the cost of using the libraries included in the project?

When you use Realtracks are you going to try and rely on direct input (DI) Realtracks, regular Realtracks or best for the song Realtracks? The first offers better mixing choices, the second will partially "lock in the sound" before any mixing is done while the third offers the best selection of audio choices to choose from.

There are bunches and bunches of "what if" questions that will come up and directly affect both the cost of the project and how satisfied you and Dan will be with the results.

Questions: How much of a Band-in-a-Box, RealBand, Realtracks, midi supertracks and styles expert are you or Dan? Do you or Dan know them well enough to be able to create tracks that will be acceptable for the project within whatever time or budget constraints both of you have? If not, you may want to pm some of the forum members that are and hire someone to assist with track creation. I don't mean that in a cruel way but it's an important point and goes back to what I was talking about in the beginning. Communication, time and budget constraints will have more of an effect on the project outcome than any limitation caused by Band-in-a-Box or RealBand.


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Joe my take on this is to use Biab like Harvey Gerst does. I'm not going to tell you who he is just Google his name. He's a heavyweight in the biz.

He's known PG since before the company was started and even though he's a forum member he doesn't post very much. The last time this subject came up was maybe 3-4 years ago and what he described is say he has a client in his (very large completely pro) studio who has a limited budget for a good demo. The client sings and plays guitar, they hired studio players for the drums and bass and backup vox. They need some "sweetning" like some pedal steel licks or short solo or maybe 8 bars of a different rhythm guitar part in the second verse that the guy can't play himself. Harvey will then use Biab and create some tracks to fit into the song that is still a 90% studio production with live players.

The idea that somebody is going to use the opposite like 80% Biab tracks to go with vocals and a guitar player? Imho, forget it. In that case the RT's are too exposed and the internet guys are correct. Anybody with any experience with the RT's can recognize the sound and phrases in seconds. I know I could.

However, if you need a short 4 bar killer guitar solo or licks to use for a short bridge to the C section you can take a Mason soloist RT, generate say 4 different versions of his soloing then start cutting and pasting elements of those different takes to make one unique 4 bar part. That works great but it takes skill. It's also exactly what the hip hop rappers have gotten slammed for over the years when they sampled elements of songs and done exactly the same thing. The only difference here is PG freely lets anybody use the RT's any way they like with no legal issues.

Talking on this forum is difficult in this case because we don't know just how professional you really are and how pro you need these recordings to be. The worship stuff I've heard have all been obvious studio productions and if there's any RT's in there it's like Harvey would do it, just a little here and there.

You know how it is, there's pro then there's PRO. Lots of folks and bands have their own following and using social media just market to them. That's a closed market and you can put out anything you want in that case but for full blown commercial marketing? Tread carefully with the RT's.

I'm going to add a bit to my already long post. I just listened to Carrie Underwoods song that Scott posted above. There's lots of little things that you can't do with Biab.

Just one example, one phrase she's singing an eighth note triplet rhythm sort of like DA da DA da Da/ / The drummer and bass are playing a slight punch to go along with that. Nothing heavy, no big snare hits or anything just some cymbal and a slightly heavier bass that ties that phrase together. This is one of those "give aways" I talked about earlier. The Biab Real Drums will just keep on playing the beat ignoring little things like that because the drummer is not in the studio with the cans on listening to her vocal track. True, a Real Drum part can cover the basic beat in this song great but it's all the little fills, and other things that are missing.

Any pro in the business would tell in short order that you're using some kind of canned drum track. Either that or he thinks your drummer is brain dead. Transfer this example to every instrument in your virtual band. The whole point of live playing is the interaction between the players. You sound like an experienced player and I'm sure you know this already. No way to get that live feeling with too many prerecorded RT's. Add some sweetning like Harvey does fine, but not the majority of the tracks.

Bob

Last edited by jazzmammal; 08/22/14 01:20 PM.

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