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... like those -ator beers. I know about 15 different ones, but there are more. We could accompany the entire session
Spekulator - thinking about the problem
Animator - get busy
Operator - while we search the error
Triumphator - after we found the error,
Optimator - to enhance the system
Maximator - to make it even better
Multiplikator - telling others about our findings
Honorator - praising those who helped
Sympathor - if others have a similar problem
Celebrator - just for celebration
and finally
Poculator - after we emptied all the others (pocula is Latin for empty)
These beers are very famous in Bavaria during Lent and as you see their names support working. :-)
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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A technician's trick I've used countless times to see if a remote control was transmitting IR (Infra Red) was to operate it within a few inches of an AM radio. It should cause a static sound when buttons are pressed and it sure beats those little IR detector cards while providing audio feedback at the same time.
Try getting an AM radio near the suspect cabling.
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In my case it was the PC and the two prong adapter fixed it. Our missing friend Mac told me all about it, there's no problem with using a ground lift when it's going into the surge protector. You know Mac, he went into his Electrical Engineer bag and explained it in great detail. If you're still not sure, I'll search my own posts, find his answer and post it.
This has been a while, maybe even last year and no problems and no noise either.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I appreciate the concern, Lawrie. How would you feel about this--a one-time test using a two-prong adapter to see whether that does it? If so, I could buy a proper isolator. If not, I remove the adapter and proceed with other steps. It's a quick, simple approach, if you approve. That's a question, so I look forward to hearing back from you. I have no problem with a one time test, but as a permanent solution, it's an easy way to die... That's why protective grounds exist in the first place.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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In my case it was the PC and the two prong adapter fixed it. Our missing friend Mac told me all about it, there's no problem with using a ground lift when it's going into the surge protector. You know Mac, he went into his Electrical Engineer bag and explained it in great detail. If you're still not sure, I'll search my own posts, find his answer and post it.
This has been a while, maybe even last year and no problems and no noise either.
Bob Hi Bob, I have great respect for Mac, even though we've disagreed in the past. I would be most interested in that post as I do not see how a surge protector would make a ground lift any safer.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I know that you know your stuff as well Lawry and expected a question from you. Here's my old thread: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236913&Searchpage=2&Main=33793&Words=jazzmammal&Search=true#Post236913What I forgot that Mac said was his last comment about you MUST have other equipment plugged into the same surge protector as the PC with the ground lift. That way it's still grounded through the other equipment. Remove everything but leave the PC plugged in and then you're at risk. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bolding mine - yup - still, knowing human nature the way I do, little things like this can be forgotten. Or interfered with by someone who is ignorant of what's going on. That's why I ALWAYS try to find a point in the AUDIO chain to lift the ground rather than at the mains. Doing my best to make things foolproof, but them fools is soooo inventive, it's a loosing battle 
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Removing grounds is never a good idea. They are there to keep the dangerous voltage potentials off the chassis and routed safely to ground.
To use a surge protector as protection against chassis voltages and depending on another device's ground for protection is foolish.
There's only one way this should even be considered and that is IF the circuit is GFCI protected.
A surge protector will not disconnect the circuit if 80ma of current flows from hot to ground. That's enough to cause cardiac arrest in healthy people...... but the GFCI will trip and shut the circuit off when it detects 7ma flowing to ground from hot.
I'm curious if you have tried the "divide and conquer" method of troubleshooting yet to try to isolate the whine. And if so, what the results were.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hi Guitarhacker,
the surge protector approact RE lifting ground on the PC works like this:
ALL the devices plugged into the surge protector are part of the system. As there is a ground connection that goes via the AUDIO path between the devices should the PC (with a lifted ground) become faulty, the ground connection would still be in place via the AUDIO path and back out to the surge protector via the protective ground connection of one of the other devices. Actually, one could argue that as the protective grounds of the premises power outlets should all be bonded to the same earth stake you don't even need the surge protector. It just brings the common ground path closer and helps eliminate voltage differentials that may exist between grounds on different circuits.
HOWEVER, I DON"T like using this approach, not because it won't work, 'cos it will, but because the current carrying capacity of most audio grounds is well below that of the wiring that is supplying the power in the first place and could easily be burnt out thus removing that protection and potentially causing a fire. It'll get HOT in a fault condition. E.G. in my house in Australia, the power reticulation is done in 2.5 sq mm conductors and fused (actually I have circuit breakers) at 16 Amps - more modern houses use 20 Amps. The cabling itself will carry far more than 16 or 20 Amps before it would start to overheat and burn but the breaker/fuse would limit it to that. The gound wire in most of the audio chain would be unlikely to carry more than 2 Amps before starting to overheat AND if it's travelling ANYWHERE along it's patch via a printed circuit board path then you can pretty much drop that to the milli Amp range. It WILL burn out and go open circuit long before the breaker/fuse could do its job and then you would have a live and unprotected PC chassis to contend with.
Of course, while the fuses/circuit breakers should help protect against this, and Core Balance Relay Sets (Safety Switches, GFCI, RCD - all the same thing really) that should stop it in its tracks, but IMHO you can't be too careful. I personally prefer to rely on good, basic design rather than fancy gizmos that might fail at the crucial moment.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Every time this subject comes up either on this forum or on other forums I frequent it always descends into comments like these. You guys make it sound like if all the wiring and all the connections are not just absolutely perfect we're all gonna die.
Look, it wasn't until sometime in the 70's I think that houses were required to even have ground circuits in them. My friend lives in Manhattan Beach, California, a very expensive area in a house built around 1962 or so and some of her outlets have just two prongs, and some have three. Anybody here who's over 50 or so grew up in a house like that and guess what? We didn't die. We all had wire snippers and either cut the ground plug off an AC plug so we could plug it into a two prong outlet or we bought the adapters. Years ago I remember my dad had a drawer full of them. We're all still here.
You guys need to lighten up a bit about ultimate safety. Sure it's safer to have everything grounded, it's also safer to only drive a brand new car every year because after all, that model is safer than the previous year. How old are your vehicles? Don't you know that a nice 25 year old truck you drive every day is an unsafe piece of crap?
C'mon, put a little perspective on this.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Who or whom else remembers the screw-in fuses that Dad would substitute a copper penny as a temporary solution until the proper amperage fuses could be purchased? During War years, when fuses became scare, it was the only and permanent solution! I don't remember a noticeable rise in house fires during the war years.
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Remember them, Don? I even HAVE a few left in my house for special circuits to the furnace and water pump. Disclosure: both my house and camp are over 100 years old...
Some would argue that replacing the burned-out fuse isn't a permanent solution; it's only temporary until the fire starts.
I'm not wading into this grounding question except to say I ran an electronics store in the mid 70s, and we kept wondering why all the audio equipment kept failing. We had the electric circuits tested and the entire wall of AC outlets were improperly grounded, setting up a floating ground through anything (or anyone) who 'connected' a chassis to ground. The current was just enough to blow equipment and give your teeth a little chatter, too.
Thanks for the trick about testing the remote with an AM radio.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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<snip>
C'mon, put a little perspective on this.
Hi Bob, hmm, perspective, here in Australia we've NEVER had power without a protective earth - but then we never used 110V either... How often does equipment fail? Not very often at all, but if it does why not play it safe? You only get one life. Sure, I may be being over cautious for you, but then I've SEEN what can go wrong... Ever seen a burnt house that was caused by an electrical fault? I have. I had to help in the clean up too. Ever seen an electrocuted body? I haven't but I know a guy who was so close to being electrocuted to death that his sphincters let go. Add to that, in my formative years my parents owned an electrical fitting business and I got to see, and eventually repair, motors and other electrical goods that had failed. You want to be cavalier about it? It's your life, go right ahead - I've seen the other side and I'll choose to be cautious thank you.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Simple, but easy to forget. Have you tried listening on earphones? Is it still there? I find if I turn my amp down, and the PC up I get better signal to noise
Z
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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A ground loop eliminator is placed between the PC/laptop out and amp/mixer. The AC power is still grounded, as well as the rest of the system. Search <ground loop eliminators>, in the forum lots of posts on this subject. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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ZeroZero, it is in the phones as well. The powered satellite speakers are turned up to their max, which is 6 dB above line level. Everything (meaning software mixers) in the PC is set at max, so there's nowhere to go in terms of S/N. I hope that is responsive to your comment.
RE: Grounding: Y'all have put the fear of God in me as far as mucking about with that. I'll find another way.
To all: Remember I said the noise consisted of static and a whine? FWIW, the whine is pitched at B above E on the first string of my guitar. The static is affected by my Bluetooth mouse. I'll have to get a USB mouse to see whether that's it.
Meanwhile, Life Keeps Happening. I'll keep you posted.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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RE: Grounding: Y'all have put the fear of God in me as far as mucking about with that. I'll find another way.
Hi mate, for fault finding purposes go ahead and lift the ground: do a positive elimination test, just don't leave it that way. I mean, it isn't an instant death scenario... If you prove that it is the ground, all you need to do then is identify a ground in the signal chain that you can open and all should be well. Until you do the test you are groping in the dark.
To all: Remember I said the noise consisted of static and a whine? FWIW, the whine is pitched at B above E on the first string of my guitar. The static is affected by my Bluetooth mouse. I'll have to get a USB mouse to see whether that's it.
I had a quick look at a frequency chart and it turns out that B1 is 62 Hz. That makes ALL B's a multiple of 62Hz which is VERY close to the 60Hz US power oscillates at. Reckon you've proven a mains connection for your noise mate. The fact your mouse has an impact on the noise also suggests your PC is the most likely culprit - not surprising since there are sooo many sources of electrical noise inside a PC.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Rzyard, just read what Mac wrote last January, he knows what he's talking about but not to say Lawry doesn't, he knows too. Note Mac warns about making sure I don't forget and leave the PC ungrounded in the power strip after I've unplugged everything else for whatever reason.
If you read that entire thread you'll see my first choice was to buy a proper grounding device but the inexpensive ones are no longer available. I called around to several electronics supply places here and the cheapest one I found locally was over $150. I found one online for $75. The one I found a few years ago was only twenty bucks. Apparently few care about this or those would still be around.
This is yet another example of why we all need to be nerds when it comes to this stuff because PC's are not designed for our kind of work. We can't be a brain dead doofus walking around with our thumbs up our noses just doing stuff with no thought behind it. Those are the ones who keep winning the annual Darwin Awards.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Agreed on the use of grounds through the audio cables.... they will not safely carry the 15 or 20 amps..... actually much more than that during a hot to ground fault condition. They become heating elements pretty quickly and not fast enough to protect you.
This does NOT sound like a ground problem or a ground loop. A ground loop would have a 60hz hum.... like a guitar amp when you touch the tip of the guitar cord. It's approximately a low "B" in pitch.
You can try removing grounds with the adapters..... never cut the ground plug connector off. I doubt that you will solve the whine this way.
Whining sounds are mostly caused by interference. In another forum site, we get this kind of issue from folks using the wireless mice and other radio frequency devices around the audio gear.
You absolutely must find the source of the noise first before you can work on solving it.
Since many folks use unbalanced wiring and cheap cords, the first step here is to ID the offending device. Shut off the wireless devices (one at a time, but then leave them off if there are multiple devices... perhaps the source is not singular but from multiple sources) that are in use in the proximity to the computer/DAW. Did it go away?
Don't rule out the wi-fi gear nearby either. Turn off the wi-fi internet.
Shut down other computers as well.
Unplug the wires from the inputs to the speakers and with them turned on and up and nothing connected, do you still hear it?
Unplug any outboard gear from the system. Gone?
Leave no stone unturned in the search for this problem.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Agreed on the use of grounds through the audio cables.... they will not safely carry the 15 or 20 amps..... actually much more than that during a hot to ground fault condition. They become heating elements pretty quickly and not fast enough to protect you.
This does NOT sound like a ground problem or a ground loop. A ground loop would have a 60hz hum.... like a guitar amp when you touch the tip of the guitar cord. It's approximately a low "B" in pitch.
You can try removing grounds with the adapters..... never cut the ground plug connector off. I doubt that you will solve the whine this way.
Whining sounds are mostly caused by interference. In another forum site, we get this kind of issue from folks using the wireless mice and other radio frequency devices around the audio gear.
You absolutely must find the source of the noise first before you can work on solving it.
Since many folks use unbalanced wiring and cheap cords, the first step here is to ID the offending device. Shut off the wireless devices (one at a time, but then leave them off if there are multiple devices... perhaps the source is not singular but from multiple sources) that are in use in the proximity to the computer/DAW. Did it go away?
Don't rule out the wi-fi gear nearby either. Turn off the wi-fi internet.
Shut down other computers as well.
Unplug the wires from the inputs to the speakers and with them turned on and up and nothing connected, do you still hear it?
Unplug any outboard gear from the system. Gone?
Leave no stone unturned in the search for this problem.
Guitarhacker, The hum is a B over the E string on a guitar, so it is a harmonic of 60 Hz. I'm looking for my two-prong adapter. I have positively ruled out my cable modem and wireless router, unless they generate RFI when powered down. I do have a wireless mouse. That's the next thing I'm going to check. I have also turned off the Ethernet-connected laptop in the room. The issue is not in the powered speaks and sub. R. Edited to add: It wasn't the mouse, nor was it the laptop.
Last edited by Ryszard; 09/21/14 09:50 AM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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