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I know there's lots of folks here who do live gigs and we all know that playing our stuff in stereo sounds much better than mono but we also know setting up a pair of speakers or a PA for stereo is a pain. The Spacestation is a tri-amped system with two side firing speakers and computer modeling. It's creating quite a stir on the Keyboard Corner with all the guys like me who are looking for the best way to project organ with leslie sims or stereo piano patches in a band context. But it's not just for that, it seems to be really good for singles and duo guitarist/vocalists as well. Here is the 9 page thread on KC:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2602284/1

The owner of the company jumped in the thread around page 6 or 7 and is answering very technical questions about it plus his website now has a bunch of good vids demoing the unit here:

http://www.centerpointstereo.com/

It's only available through Sweetwater and it just began shipping last week. A few guys on the KC forum have reviewed it with very positive results. The owner Aspen Pittman is putting on a demonstration at the Amp Show in Van Nuys California this weekend and I'll be there to check this thing out.

Apparently this really is a whole new level of stage technology and I thought some of you might be interested as well. It's not very expensive either, it's selling for $599.

Bob


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"Center Point Stereo—melds in your mind!" At least, that's what I gathered from their home page. Affordable, as you said. Unfortunately, their flagship offering seems to be out of production. If I was looking to gig, this is the first thing I'd check out.


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It's interesting, but....100 watts into an 8 ohm 8" speaker? No mention of sensitivity or SPL. Might work for a keyboard or an acoustic single, but I doubt that it's beefy enough to handle a bar.



Edit - It does have a couple of rave reviews on Sweetwater though.


http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Spacestation3/reviews

Last edited by 90 dB; 10/01/14 10:04 AM. Reason: p.s.
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Rzyard, this is part of the confusion, his old V.2 is the one that's been out of production for several years. This V.3 is brand new.

90DB, that was my exact point on the forum but several guys who just got theirs last week have reported it really does work in a higher volume situation. Part of it is it has a "sub out" but that's a misnomer. It's not just for sub bass freq's, it's a full range out put so guys are sitting it on another amp or powered speaker for more boost and it seems to work great but one guy didn't do that and he says virtually everybody in the room including on stage can hear him great.

This is why I'm going to the show this weekend because the demo is going to be with a full band. If I'm lucky maybe I can sit in and try it myself, we'll see.

The part that sounds like someone has been smoking their magic mushrooms is when he talks about how the sound is projected all over the room including on stage and it's the same volume everywhere. That in turn does not require anywhere near the power that we would normally think is required.

Note this is the same claim Bose makes with their L1 and L2 systems and by and large they've been right. But those Bose L2's are close to 3 grand for the double sub system.

Bob


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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Rzyard, this is part of the confusion, his old V.2 is the one that's been out of production for several years. This V.3 is brand new.

90DB, that was my exact point on the forum but several guys who just got theirs last week have reported it really does work in a higher volume situation. Part of it is it has a "sub out" but that's a misnomer. It's not just for sub bass freq's, it's a full range out put so guys are sitting it on another amp or powered speaker for more boost and it seems to work great but one guy didn't do that and he says virtually everybody in the room including on stage can hear him great.

This is why I'm going to the show this weekend because the demo is going to be with a full band. If I'm lucky maybe I can sit in and try it myself, we'll see.

The part that sounds like someone has been smoking their magic mushrooms is when he talks about how the sound is projected all over the room including on stage and it's the same volume everywhere. That in turn does not require anywhere near the power that we would normally think is required.

Note this is the same claim Bose makes with their L1 and L2 systems and by and large they've been right. But those Bose L2's are close to 3 grand for the double sub system.

Bob




I'd be interested in your opinion of the thingy.

"...the same volume everywhere"

Yeah, right.

Bose is right about the sound coverage, but the sound itself? Not so much. There is a guy here in town who has the 2 sub Bose, and it sounds horrible - bassy, but heavy on low-mids, not thump. Could be the way he's mixing it, but I'll stick with my 18" powered JBL sub. Boom boom. grin

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I just read the description of the technology on the website. This is really nothing new. In fact, I had my cheapo Panasonic home stereo set like this after reading how to do it in the liner notes of Brian Eno's "Ambient" series.

You can try this yourself if you have a stereo amp and some spare speakers with which you don't mind experimenting.


Here's the gist of it with ingredients required (you can probably look this up on one of Eno's sites or google it, but this is from memory)

Wire up a 3rd speaker using the + leads from both your left and right speakers or at the amp.

Put this 3rd speaker across the room from where you have the L/R speakers set up.

What will drive this 3rd speaker is the uncommon content sent to the L & R speakers. Normally, this is mostly mid to high frequency data, so this 3rd speaker really doesn't need to have much low frequency handling capability. If I remember correctly, my 3rd speaker was a little oval job with a whizzer cone that I scavenged out of a TV someone was throwing out on trash day. I didn't even have it in a cabinet. I had it suspended from the drop ceiling in the room I had this setup in.

On personal account I can vouch that this WILL increase the amount of space in your room where you are getting spatial imaging, compared to a traditional stereo speaker setup. It won't be as much as Quadrophonic sound for you 8-track fans, but it is quite noticeable, and particularly noticeable because mid-high frequencies are what our brain uses for localization of sound, and this technique does give more data to work with for your hearing system in terms of where it's localized in the room.

I had this setup for probably 5 years before I moved from that location, and in that move made a significant bump up in my home stereo gear compared to the Panasonic all-in-one unit.

If you read the claims closely, it does not state that the power level/volume is the same across the stage, rather that the stereo image is preserved across the stage - there's a big difference in stating that imaging is preserved, rather than volume levels being the same across the stage. I would believe the former can be true.

Actually, I just found Eno's description of this: http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/onland-txt.html

Give it a try - it is pretty cool in how it works. This cabinet and speaker wiring in the aforementioned center-point-stereo is using almost the same concept.

Last edited by rockstar_not; 10/01/14 09:55 PM.
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Right, and when some guys asked about why doesn't Aspen build a bigger system, he replied he did years ago for Ray Manzarek. It weighed over a hundred pounds and put out 4-500 watts using separate speaker cabs. He went on to say he's built many different versions of this. Right now, he's basically retired and he's a one man show. A big part of the sound this V.3 gets is the computer modelling that was done by a PhD who used to be the lead sound engineer for JBL.

If you haven't read that whole thread on KC you should. There's a bunch of guys there who are as technical as you are and they're really getting deep into the weeds with this.

Bob


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I went to the Amp Show yesterday, met Aspen and checked out the unit. I posted a full review on the KC forum, just go to the link I posted above if anybody's interested but bottom line, I'm getting one.

Bob


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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
I went to the Amp Show yesterday, met Aspen and checked out the unit. I posted a full review on the KC forum, just go to the link I posted above if anybody's interested but bottom line, I'm getting one.

Bob




Sounds interesting Bob, but I think Aspen's SPL figure is a little vague.


"Aspen said he was holding the max volume at 105db and the amp still had quite a bit of power left."



105dB where, exactly, and with what? 1 watt/1 meter? "A" weighted or "C" weighted? 105dB standing right next to the thing?

I wish you had brought a SPL meter.

But - if it meets your needs, goood on you. I want one of the ones he built for Manzerak! grin


Regards,

Bob

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Just go on Keyboard Corner and ask him, I'm not here to start shilling for Aspen I'm just letting folks know about this amp. It really is different though. He was probably using the same meter the NAMM guys were using for his demos there this year. For NAMM the organizers required all the vendors to keep their sound below 85db and they walked all over the hall testing that.

This was primarily a guitar god show but since Aspen used to own Groove Tubes lots of the guitar guys know him. I personally never heard of him before but he's somebody in the industry that's for sure. He was selling a book he wrote that is the history of all the major amp mfgrs including what looked like 30 pages of schematics of famous amps.

If there were more interest here I was going to email him and suggest he start posting here but it doesn't seem it's worth it. I'll admit the Spacestation is being marketed mostly for keyboards and specifically organ but like I just saw, this thing is pretty nice for small combos too.

Since we don't know each other I don't know what you're thinking of when I mention volume. If you're a heavy metal rocker that's one thing, if you're a lounge lizard that's another. The keys player he used for the demo told me for louder gigs he sits the SS on a powered Eon using the sub out (it's really a full range out) and it sounds great with plenty of power. I'll post here when I get mine and do a couple of gigs with it but that won't be for a month or so.

Bob


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Bob,

Allow me to step in here and take an educated guess about 90 dB's interest in the specifics of the 105 dB discussion.

90 dB's handle here is an indication of some of his past experience and possibly thinking of in this instance: hearing conservation.

90 dB Time Weighted Average is the daily exposure limit set in play by OSHA with a 5 dB exchange rate, though more conservative organizations recommend 85 dB TWA with a 3 dB exchange rate. These are calculated using A-weighted measurements, normalized to an 8 hour day.

Lots of people throw around dB values, without much knowledge as to how it's calculated, what weighting is used, time response, etc. etc. etc.

Someone who is familiar with the details of SPL measurement technique, like 90 dB, has an instant distrust of persons making statements about SPL, and this is exacerbated by the prevalence of folks that think that their iPhone/Android SPL meter app has any kind of precision or accuracy (these are different in measurement theory), and most of them are quite far off, make no indication of whether weighting is being used, time averaging in play, and so on.

Even more dangerous are folks that are semi-informed on the topic. I've lost track of the number of times someone has shown me a peak level hit on their iPhone SPL meter and complained that I'm damaging someone's hearing because I had an instance in a show that hit 93 dB on their app (I run live sound now and then).

105 dB, at someone's ear, in a sustained situation has an allowed exposure time of 1 hour in a day, before it would tip over the TWA of 90 dB. To see a time weighted average calculator, you can go here: https://www.noisemeters.com/apps/occ/twa-dose.asp

Regardless,

I find it quite intriguing someone is using the difference encoding in a stand-alone amp/cabinet. It makes quite a bit of sense to me how this would sound like more spatial sound would result from this kind of an arrangement. You know, there is a bit of this going on in Dolby Surround and Pro-logic stuff as well. The ability to encode more than 2 channels of information, in a purely 2 channel signal is a hallmark of the Dolby Surround signal encoding/decoding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic

But the difference there is the encoding/decoding is done intentionally, whereas this system is using the differences of the left and right signals, no matter the source, to crank out a 3rd signal and the common signal to crank out a 4th signal, at a spatially 90 degree oriented speaker. I totally buy that this could create a 'spatial' sound at much more locations on a stage, than signals being created by L/R separated speakers, where because of proximity to either speaker, your perception is dominated by the signal coming from that closer speaker.

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“Since we don't know each other I don't know what you're thinking of when I mention volume. If you're a heavy metal rocker that's one thing, if you're a lounge lizard that's another.”


Actually, volume is volume, regardless of the genre. A heavy metal band can attenuate their volume, just as a lounge act can blow glasses off the bar if they have the power to do so. Quite a few bar bands equate volume with “good”, and play at ear-splitting levels. We play Classic Rock, and try to keep the overall SLP at 90 dB, “A” weighted (slow), 30' from the stage. This keeps people on the dance floor, but still able to converse without shouting. We have a comparatively small PA – just 900 watts into 4 ohms driving 15” mains, and a small JBL 500 watt powered sub. Add to that a 30 watt tube amp and a 250 watt bass amp, and if I want, I can knock people's glasses off of the bar. grin

The ambient noise level in a packed bar can reach 90-100 dB without any music playing, so actual sound levels are cumulative.

Wattage and volume do not equate either. Tube amps generate higher SPL that SS amps, for example.
My reticence regarding Aspen's “105 dB” is simply because – lacking any sensitivity specs, or even a frequency chart, there is no way to compare his unit with known factors/systems. Bose is infamous for this kind of thing.

As an example:

The QSC K12 powered speaker:

12" LF driver, 1.75" HF driver
Frequency Response: 48Hz-20kHz
Max SPL: 131dB
1,000 watt, efficient and light-weight class-D power module


The Max SPL is the important number. The QSC is a 12” driver coupled with a 1000 watt Class-D amp. The Spacestation is an 8” driver with a 100 watt amp.

How loud a speaker gets depends on how "sensitive" it is. "Sensitivity" is measured by determining the decibel (dB) level of a speaker when 1 watt of power is applied, measured from 1 meter away.

This "sensitivity rating" means that a speaker with a sensitivity rating of 90 dB SPL can create a sound pressure level ("SPL") of 90 decibels with 1 watt of power measured 1 meter from the speaker. In short hand, "90 dB SPL 1W/1M".

I just doubt that an 8” speaker driven by a 100 watt amp can generate 105 dB @ 1 watt/ 1 meter. I could be wrong - it's happened quite often before! grin

Scott is the expert in these things – I'm just a guitar player, but I have to deal with SPL in everything from a quiet restaurant to a noisy biker bar.

As I said before, if it works for you, great. It sure is easier than dragging a Leslie around!


Regards,

Bob

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I see you guys are way beyond me on this subject. But, it's not 100W it's 280W tri-amped. Like I said just read the now 11 page and growing thread on the KC. Aspen started posting on page 7 and he's interacting with a bunch of tech types just like you. As you read what he's saying and you become aware of his impressive history you realize he's one of the heavyweights and knows what he's talking about.

If he said 105db, that's what it is. All I can say is I've been gigging since 1964 in the Air Force in Japan and all over North America since carrying B3's, Leslies and tons of other crap. Of course that's all gone now and I've severely downsized. I know what volume means and how bands sound and the mix and all that stuff. I was an agent for five years and wrote reports from clubs on the mix, the overall volume and stuff like that to other clubs who trusted me. When I say this little amp was pretty darn loud in that room and very clean, I mean it. Talk about 8" drivers and all that all you want, technology marches on. You mentioned QSC and they're very good, I happen to like the new EV stuff and the new EV ZXA1 is an 8" and it kicks butt. So does the new Yamaha DXR10. These amps with new electronics and neo drivers blows 10 year old Eon's and such right out the water not just with the sound but the weight too.

Somebody mentioned how heavy the Spacestation is for it's size (39 pounds) and why doesn't he use Class D amps. He said he does and then launched into a short tech discussion of the differences between amp types and how they interact with the exact drivers he's using, how that affects the computer modeling for the stereo 90 degree out of phase effect and blah, blah, blah. My eyes glazed over. The dude is an engineer, you know?

I know you're a bit skeptical and I respect that and your knowledge too but I'm telling you this thing is a game changer not just for keyboards but as a small group PA with everything going through it except drums. He also mentioned he will be coming out with a bigger version in about a year. Will it be that mouth watering Manzarek one? Probably not but I'll bet it will be pretty hot.

Bob


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I would love a chance to experience it. This would be just the sort of thing that would go over well in a local Audio Engineering Society chapter meeting.

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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
I see you guys are way beyond me on this subject. But, it's not 100W it's 280W tri-amped. Like I said just read the now 11 page and growing thread on the KC. Aspen started posting on page 7 and he's interacting with a bunch of tech types just like you. As you read what he's saying and you become aware of his impressive history you realize he's one of the heavyweights and knows what he's talking about.

If he said 105db, that's what it is. All I can say is I've been gigging since 1964 in the Air Force in Japan and all over North America since carrying B3's, Leslies and tons of other crap. Of course that's all gone now and I've severely downsized. I know what volume means and how bands sound and the mix and all that stuff. I was an agent for five years and wrote reports from clubs on the mix, the overall volume and stuff like that to other clubs who trusted me. When I say this little amp was pretty darn loud in that room and very clean, I mean it. Talk about 8" drivers and all that all you want, technology marches on. You mentioned QSC and they're very good, I happen to like the new EV stuff and the new EV ZXA1 is an 8" and it kicks butt. So does the new Yamaha DXR10. These amps with new electronics and neo drivers blows 10 year old Eon's and such right out the water not just with the sound but the weight too.

Somebody mentioned how heavy the Spacestation is for it's size (39 pounds) and why doesn't he use Class D amps. He said he does and then launched into a short tech discussion of the differences between amp types and how they interact with the exact drivers he's using, how that affects the computer modeling for the stereo 90 degree out of phase effect and blah, blah, blah. My eyes glazed over. The dude is an engineer, you know?

I know you're a bit skeptical and I respect that and your knowledge too but I'm telling you this thing is a game changer not just for keyboards but as a small group PA with everything going through it except drums. He also mentioned he will be coming out with a bigger version in about a year. Will it be that mouth watering Manzarek one? Probably not but I'll bet it will be pretty hot.

Bob




Bob,

I wasn't trying to impugn your knowledge or experience, and I apologize if it came off that way. I understand that Aspen is an innovator, and that this is probably a great product.

I am certainly no engineer, just someone who has had to sort through a lot of hype with audio gear; companies that fudge their specs, some that don't provide any specs (like Bose), and some that substitute peak for RMS. I like to see specs that I can compare to other systems, with solid measurements, such as the standard 1 watt/1 meter SPL.

To merely state: “If he said 105db, that's what it is.” may satisfy your curiosity, but not mine. It could be that the 105 dB figure is actually a measurement at 1 watt/1 meter, but without the clarity of having that stated plainly, I cannot make that assumption.

I will be interested to read your review when you get to use it at a gig. Looks like a really cool unit.


Regards,

Bob

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I'm anxious to try it too but he said the first two runs are sold out right now, it may be a few weeks until I get one.

Bob


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Aspen just posted a vid from the same show I attended, I was there on Saturday, this is from Sunday. It sounds pretty much the way I heard it and he's recording it with a pair of mics plugged into his camcorder to get the stereo effect. This gives an idea of the size of the room and there was a good 10-12 feet behind the camera to the rear wall.

Now you can see what I meant when I said I walked behind the stage in both corners to hear the mix and it was the same as along the side walls going to the back. That was impressive, it was not all muddy like it usually is with regular PA speakers and amps.

When you listen to this turn it up to the point it almost sounds like these guys are in your house or use headphones because that's how loud it was there at the show. This little thing cranked pretty good and there's been a few more posts on the KC forum talking about how great it sounds if you sit it on top of a powered PA speaker for more oomph if needed. He says you just turn up the width control to compensate and it still creates a good stereo effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7yJWzDKDXE

Bob


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Hi Bob. I've been reading through the posts on Kybd Corner and I'm impressed by the reviews of those who have the SS. I hope that when you get your unit you'll post your review here in BIAB. I'm thinking of selling my QSC-10 and getting the SS. Later, Ray


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Some of his description - the magnet analogy, and stating that the sound at 105-110 dB at your ears is not fatiguing, well, now I'm the skeptic. I understand he's trying to explain a rather complicated concept - broadcast of a m/s signal, to an audience that may not be prepared to listen to that - but saying that the mid and side signals repel each other, and general mumbo-jumbo like that - he would do better just to be quiet and let the unit speak for itself like he does when he disables the side speaker signals and you can hear the audio instantly fold down to mono.

I will tell you if there is 105 dB real SPL at your ear, you will not hear a person next to you well enough unless you are shouting. Even then it's going to be difficult and it will be fatiguing and it will be potentially damaging to your hearing. Period. So there's something flaky about his measurement technique or description of it, etc. Air attenuates, whether it's a m/s signal or not - that is a law of physics that cannot be defied.

-Scott

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Originally Posted By: rockstar_not
I will tell you if there is 105 dB real SPL at your ear, you will not hear a person next to you well enough unless you are shouting.


I agree because that's exactly what happened when I was talking to some guys in the back of the room. We still had to put our heads together and raise our voices to talk. I chalk that up to marketing but overall though I can't wait to get mine.

Bob


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Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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