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I've started to arrange and compose songs using BIAB as my main tool for such. Despite its many great features, I for one am not overly fond of the resulting printed charts. Although I have used them and given them to my band members, the charts just don't cut it (IMHO). That said, I'm looking for all possible ways to take what I've created in BIAB and get a great looking printed chart. Sibelius seems to be the software of choice when I asked other members of my band, but they don't use BIAB.
I've tried Musescore and find it a bit tough to work with. With these thoughts in mind, how do you get your BIAB work printed neatly for performance?
Thank you for taking the time to read and reply.
Bob
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Bob, I've tried many notation programs over the years. I still use Encore, which I learned about 1993. I cannot recommend it now because of questions about their support, but I've been a beta tester for decades and it works for me. I even did symphony orchestra parts with it last year. Sibelius is a fine choice for serious work and far more powerful but it is quite difficult to master. The company also got rid of programmers so its future is in question. Finale seems to be a stable company. The product also is difficult to master but extremely powerful and much used. If I'm not mistaken, a starter version is offered on the PG Music website. *MuseScore is free and promising but buggy. I know some here use Noteworthy Composer. I haven't tried that, nor a new one, Forte. I've been meaning to look at Notion, which looks promising. Many of these you can try by downloading demos that often do everything but Save a file. The trick is to find one where the user interface makes sense to you. In this way, it is similar to choosing a DAW. I still hope all these programs (including BIAB) adopt a full implementation of Music XML for seamless file transfer. That's the future. * EDIT: check these links on the PG Music site for Finale and Finale PrintMusic:http://www.pgmusic.com/finale.win.htmhttp://www.pgmusic.com/finaleprintmusic.win.htm[/color]
Last edited by Matt Finley; 10/27/14 05:00 PM.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Matt: Wow, "I still use Encore", I remember and used Encore for a long time (way way back), I dropped it because of a lack of support.
Unfortunately I can't remember much of Noteworthy Composer except I used it for about 1 year (long ago). If memory serves me, it worked well and easy as pie to use but I always thought of it as a beginner's intro into the music notation sw.
And so I went for the big ones, I have/had Finale and Sibelius but I didn't like either one; difficult and frustrating to use. I just wanted something simple to use.
You're right about checking out the demos. I bought some because of their "name".
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Not in same league as you folks, but about 25 years ago I purchased Personal Composer. Spent hundreds and hundreds of hours scoring. Bought it for about $400 before first 1.0 came out. It is still around and has a free trial. http://www.pcomposer.com/downloads.htmlTake note, depending on your scoring needs varying prices. Good luck!
Last edited by seeker; 10/27/14 06:37 PM.
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I have generally used Noteworthy Composer (and still do a lot), but I'm also finding I'm really liking Notion. PreSonus recently purchased Notion, and have incorporated some of their plugins into the new version of Notion 5.0. Once you get used to how you enter notes, it's pretty elegant in its design. It also costs a lot less than Finale or Sibelius (of course, Finale just released PrintMusic 2014, which may fill all your needs at a lower price point than the main Finale program).
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Thank you for your great suggestions. At present, I'm a little put-off by both Sibelius and Finale, from both a pricing and learning curve perspective. On the other hand, Finale's PrintMusic 2014 and Notion both are in the price range I can afford. I plan to download the trial software and will check it out.
I might as well ask now: How do you guys get your BIAB work into Finale, Sibelius, Notion, whatever? If anyone has the time, I'd really like to hear about your work flow to the final printed score.
Again, I greatly appreciate your replies. Thank you.
Bob
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You can just export MIDI. Unfortunately the chord info does not transfer and you have to re-enter those.
MuseScore will read BIAB files directly, including chord info.
If BIAB could export Music XML, you could import that into most software. We are close; this already works for the voice synth.
My experiments exporting MuseScore as Music XML have not worked well enough.
Last edited by Matt Finley; 10/28/14 07:43 AM.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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There is a new version 2 beta of MuseScore available. I wonder if they have improved MusicXML export. If it does work, then even if you don't use it for notation, it's an option to get it into XML, which can then be read by one of the other notation programs.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Ah, yes, worth trying. Thanks John.
I don't know where the current problem is: reading a BIAB file into MuseScore, or exporting it as XML. It works, but not accurately.
Wherever the problem is, it is not a fault of BIAB, as MuseScore reads the BIAB source file and BIAB never claimed that this would work. It would be nice, though, if the two companies got together. If this new version of MuseScore works, then PG Music would not have to devote any effort to supporting Music XML export.
EDIT: the writeup says the changes include this:
MusicXML import/export improvements - greater compatibility with other applications, ability to control degree of layout preserved
But alas, some strange things happened. The chords imported but in the wrong measure, and all the melody notes play but the notation is wrong - everything is the one pitch. ?
Last edited by Matt Finley; 10/28/14 10:37 AM.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Johnny One-Note? 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Funny! Why don't you try it also, John?
We may have to wait though; it is a beta after all. I noticed that the File, Open menu said that BIAB file types were "experimental". I don't remember that being in version 1, and indeed I got better results in version 1 than this new beta. However, the list of new features says there are now more options for Music XML and maybe I haven't yet found the right choice.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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In going to try it; just couldn't at the time I posted.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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So I tried it. I opened an MGU file with MuseScore 2.0 Beta 1 and it created the staff, but as Matt experienced, it was all the same note. However, when I played it, I heard the melody play. It also picked up the chord progression above the staff.
I exported to MusicXML and then imported that into Notion 4.0 (I haven't upgraded to 5.0 yet). Notion displayed the chord progression (with some formatting errors) above the staff, but no notes came through from the melody line.
Hopefully later MuseScore betas will provide better support, but it was nice to see the chord progression come over from BIAB into a notation program. Now just need the notes.
As was said, it would be cool if PGMusic could somehow get together with the MuseScore folks to better handle SGU and MGU files, but there might be conflict since BIAB/RB are for profit programs, whereas MuseScore is open source.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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We do get the right melody notes from a BIAB file in MuseScore v2.0 Beta1.
Here is how to proceed :
- Load your *.mgu file into Musescore
- Go to Style Menu/General/Score/tick Display in Concert Pitch/OK.
It's done.
Last edited by John-Luke; 10/29/14 01:17 AM.
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Thanks, John-Luke. I'll give it a try.
I don't use MuseScore as my main notation program, so there is still lots for to learn as far as options are concerned. But it looks like there is hope for using it either directly, or as an intermediary, to notate BIAB scores, both with notes and chords.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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One simpler way to do : Just click on 'Concert Pitch', at the extreme right of the second line of the menu, just near the metronome icon.
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I'm a MuseScore fan and have used it a number of times. Once you get the hang of how it works, its workflow is smooth.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Thanks for this tip, John-Luke. I'll try it at home later.
Assuming it works, I wonder why this extra step is required in version 2 beta when it was not in version 1? Oh, well.
Is anyone here actively doing beta testing for MuseScore?
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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I installed a trial version of Finale PrintMusic 2014 last night. I didn't have the time to 'play' with it, but I did manage to get a midi file created from BIAB loaded and displayed in PrintMusic 2014. The particular file was "Unit 7". I was a bit disappointed in not seeing chords displayed and in the 'swing' eighth notes displayed incorrectly. (From memory, PrintMusic produced dotted eighth-16th notes from two eighth notes, I recall.) Also, the melody (tenor sax) ended up on the bass clef for reasons I don't understand.
I'll give it a more thorough evaluation and trial over the weekend.
Bob
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Thanks for this tip, John-Luke. I'll try it at home later.
Assuming it works, I wonder why this extra step is required in version 2 beta when it was not in version 1? Oh, well.
Is anyone here actively doing beta testing for MuseScore?
I'm another supporter of MuseScore. I discovered the program earlier this year and used it on a few scores already. I'm not a beta tester, however I have made several suggestions on their support forum and they are definitely responsive. I actually discovered the program when I kept beating my head against the wall with BIAB's ahem... limited scoring abilities. Since I don't use melodies, just straight chords, being able to import them into MuseScore is extremely helpful. Like all scoring apps, Musescore has its own learning curve, but it's not that bad overall.
BIABguy
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Okay. Decided to try Finale PrintMusic first, before delving into Musescore and others. My initial comment is pretty much the same as I have had for every piece of sophisticated software I've used in the last decade: When are they going to produce a decent manual that follows what the majority of users want to do first?" IMHO, that first thing would be to input a midi file produced elsewhere and see the notes. Maybe not, but that is my first task. So, having done this, finale displays my melody in the bass clef, and I cannot find anything in the outline manual that offer a clue on how to convert this to treble clef. Mind you, the resulting midi track sounds just fine, but the notation is wrong for my purposes.
I know this is a BIAB forum, but if anyone has a solution to this, please let me know. Thanks!
Bob
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Never mind, I figured it out after a bunch of futile searches. Sorry for wasted bandspace.
Bob
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Hi, Reading this discussion, I like to draw your attention to the 6000 BIAB files I converted into musicXML. It is quite easy to compare the results and give comments, in order to evaluate if the tool PDFtoMusic Pro is good enough (imho it is) to produce worthwhile and useful musicXML files (or .mxl) from BIAB for any notation program. The 6000 BIAB files have been batch-printed. The results can be seen here: SugarSync PDF YAHOO BIAB FILES #-Z: https://app.sugarsync.com/iris/wf/D7389688_4167795_9924404After conversion to musicXML they have been imported into MuseScore and batch reconverted into 3 other formats (after a fixed simple filter I created myself): .mscz, .mxl and PDF again. In fact this new PDF representation is the result of the musicXML. The result is printed with a MuseScore template, so measures with too crowded notes ( in BIAB) are represented in a different better way. Additionally I choosed a greater chord size which sometimes leads to overlapping chords, but that was MY choice. The results can be seen here: SugarSync PDF BIAB YAHOO FILES #-Z (mscz prints): https://app.sugarsync.com/iris/wf/D7389688_4167795_9874546Read my forum thread if you want to access all the other formats as well and more: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=276893#Post276893Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Sibelius is a fine choice for serious work and far more powerful but it is quite difficult to master. The company also got rid of programmers so its future is in question.
# Just out of interest Matt these programmers were ported over to Steinberg and are currently working on an update for Cubase's scoring (which is already rather powerful) their development blog is here ... Its quite interesting for me... http://blog.steinberg.net/
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/02/15 06:16 AM.
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I've been reading these "create a chart" threads for years. It's always been and still is the same thing over and over: Biab/RB won't do what we want and all the other programs either don't work or are so complex (and expensive) nobody but a rocket scientist can figure them out.
This has been in the wishlist since forever and nothing's been done so the assumption is nothing can be done for whatever reasons so for me it's a dead issue. Therefore I've worked out a workaround that others have figured out as well.
What you do is simply visualize what the chart looks like without all the extra stuff like 1sr/2nd endings, tags, codas, DS's, and section letters. By that I mean it's like taking a pic of an existing chart with your phone and simply counting the number of bars you see and the chords you see while ignoring the other stuff.
Enter your chords and bars in Biab that way as one chorus, no chorus repeat, then print it out and then hand write all those other things. It's no problem to get the staff, bar lines, melody and chords alone to display like I want them. I'll set the left margin to 3/4" so I have room to write the song section letters and any little one word notes like "Tag" or "Coda.". I can easily hand write the coda sign wherever it should go.
I'll then make copies and hand them out to band members. If I need to email them I'll scan them to a pdf and email that. Not as elegant as using Biab's built in pdf creator but using a scanner is almost as fast.
Just experiment with that and forget wishing Biab would do this or that or messing around with all these other programs. My advice is just deal with how it is because change ain't happening and these other programs don't work either.
Bob
Last edited by jazzmammal; 01/02/15 07:25 AM.
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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.............What you do is simply visualize what the chart looks like without all the extra stuff like 1sr/2nd endings, tags, codas, DS's, and section letters. By that I mean it's like taking a pic of an existing chart with your phone and simply counting the number of bars you see and the chords you see while ignoring the other..........
Bob
I'm not sure for who this comment is meant. If I'm the one I should like to get a BIAB file ( .mg..) example from you so I can create a PDF file and convert it into a musicXML without manually correcting it and see what all real short comings are! This because your comments doesn't yet make sense to me. For the purpose I use it there is no more simple way to use BIAB files without all kind of manually corrections to create files that can be used directly as full transposable music in an app at an iPad or Androïd based tablet. With some stuff, which we as amateur musicians hardly use in BIAB there are some problems, which can be easily added at the tablet itself. Not so with a lot of stuff you mentioned like tags, coda's and section letters which are converted as well. All depends also on settings used in BIAB used during printing to PDF. Secondly the whole issue is, the details has to be solved one by one to create a program that meets your expectations. I've learned to have some considerations with the creators. I'm only a user of PDFtoMusic which tries to convince them to solve all short comings one by one. And until now I succeeded by using 6000 excisting files in batch mode processing them to get an idea of all those short comings. The improvements are great! For me it already serves its purpose for most of my files and I can directly use them without any manual correction. But I'm not a prof composer! All necessary handwriting can be done at your tablet! And while rehearsing everybody can transpose as needed ( if the singer wants another key, or an new instrument wants another key)! No paper involved, all instantly available at your tablet if you use musicXML or rather .mxl or .mscz. So please send an example so I can learn what the prof really wants! Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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I have got to say that I agree with Bob. With BIAB, the time and effort you have to put into notation, instruction notes and producing different instrument parts makes it too big a job to be practical. It is far quicker to adopt the exact method described by Bob and add that stuff manually. A simple lead sheet for any instrument is where BIAB is tops but anything more complex is not even worth considering. Believe me, I keep trying but it never gets any easier/faster. I have always thought that this is a great shame because the actual entering of notes, not to mention adding harmony parts and having a great rhythm section, is perhaps 5x faster than with any of the 'proper' notation programs I have used (and still do) - Sibelius 7.5, Overture 4, MuseScore. I also agree with what Bob says about those programs being very difficult to use.  The overall fault with them is that they have allowed computer programmers a free hand in the designing of various functions, rather than doing the proper marketing and asking the musicians/arrangers how they would like the program to operate. Unfortunately, that is a problem in many types of computer programs. But, you know, unlike Bob I have not given up on convincing 'the powers that be' at PG Music that it would be worthwhile putting some programming effort into the notation, so that it is fully competitive with the notation/score programs. It would be a world-beater of a program because BIAB has got such a head-start on speed of entry of notes and being able to hear what your arrangement sounds like with a full rhythm section. I guess there is a belief at PG Music that the real future for BIAB is to keep producing RealTracks for the use of the single acts and deadly duos that play all the clubs these days. But I can tell you there is still a much bigger customer base of people who use BIAB to produce lead sheets for proper sized bands and orchestras and would love to do the whole arranging thing in BIAB. It is so frustrating to produce a great sounding arrangement in BIAB and then have to transfer a midi file (with accompanying bugs - more than a few, BTW) into one of the so-called proper notation programs so that you can produce the parts. I have just produced a few arrangements for one of my bands (three-piece frontline plus rhythm section) in which I tried hard to create all the parts properly marked using BIAB. I got some very presentable parts with all the proper markings and notes and I only was beaten by a couple of sets of repeat marks, which were easy to add manually. However, the process just took far, far too long.  Don't get me wrong. I am a huge fan of BIAB and I use it every day for practice, producing lead sheets and preliminary arrangements (even for big bands). I just want it to do even more! There is a huge worldwide market for this! Pretty please!
Grah Jive Talk
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.... I guess there is a belief at PG Music that the real future for BIAB is to keep producing RealTracks for the use of the single acts and deadly duos that play all the clubs these days. But I can tell you there is still a much bigger customer base of people who use BIAB to produce lead sheets for proper sized bands and orchestras and would love to do the whole arranging thing in BIAB. It is so frustrating to produce a great sounding arrangement in BIAB and then have to transfer a midi file (with accompanying bugs - more than a few, BTW) into one of the so-called proper notation programs so that you can produce the parts..... Graham, I completely agree with this nice summary. However I'm not a composer but an amateur jazz musician who wants to be able to fast exchange a piece of music during a jam session or rehearsel and adjust the key for the different instruments and use a proper key for the bypassing singers. So no paper or printing needed, just exchanging files on our tablets, by email or bluetooth. Then transposing it "on the spot" for your own needs. (FYI "Avid Scorch" and "MuseScore Songbook" are the apps that can "transpose" your scores + chords on the spot). What I didn't realize is that although good notation programs excist like Sibelius, Finale and MuseScore ( btw free) that several prof composers sometimes still prefer BIAB for simple or small work. And it seems that then, to import this stuff in their real notation program, they use a midi file exchange from BIAB. I've to say that I'm not that familiar with this type of exchange but the few times I tried it, it seemed to create a mess. So for me midi was exit right away. Also the .mgu file import option from MuseScore was a mess imho. My favourite program became PDFtoMusic Pro which produces musicXML. Then still a lot of things needed to be corrected, but after all improvements they added last year on my behalf it became very useful. So presently I only need to print BIAB to pdf, then convert it via PDFtoMusic Pro into musicXML, filter it with my own developed clean up musicXML .bat tool and do nothing else but use the results right away. No manual corrections needed for me. Ready in a few minutes. I realize that prof composers music is generally much more complex compared to the simplified fake book stuff I'm interested in. Nevertheless I'm quite sure PDFtoMusic Pro can improve their program to an even much higher level if more problems are solved. There are 3 steps in this process. Firstly the way BIAB creates the PDF which includes optimum print settings for this process. Secondly the way PDFtoMusic converts the pdf to .musicxml. Thirdly the way your notation program including the optimum settings reads musicXML! Since I'm pretty familiar with the problems involved I'm very interested in an example BIAB file which one of you created in BIAB and which you afterwards used to exchange with your favourite notation program. Then that created a lot of headaches I understood the way you use to do it. But still some of you seem to use BIAB for quick and dirty work. If you send such a BIAB file to me I like to try it the way I do it, so I can experience all shortcomings myself. Then I can import it into Sibelius, import it into Finale and import it into MuseScore, print it to pdf and send it back to you as is without manually corrections. This might lead to more improvements in the whole process which might benifit all of us. Thanks, Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Hi Rob, Let me tell you first that I am not a pro. I am just like you and using BIAB for much the same things as you do with my small groups - mainly Dixieland/Swing/Mainstream Jazz. Most of the band members also have BIAB (not always the latest version unfortunately) and we swap files of the tunes we are working on. As an extra benefit this also allows you to practice your part for a tune at home before a practice session. I also play 1st bone in several amateur big bands (are there any pro big bands these days?) and like to arrange for these. Hence again my habit of developing the arrangements in BIAB. Yep, I agree there might be some ante in combining our experience by sending files to each other and see if we can come up with some improved methods, partner software programs etc. I am a bit busy over the next few days with other work (I work as a marketing consultant for a small but worldwide successful software company - non music. I am not a programmer!  ) Just one more point from me before I put my head down on some deadlines. As a marketing type I am looking at the number of views of this topic. That again indicates the big interest in getting proper score printouts from BIAB! I know an awful lot of people who would update to get those improvements  If I remember correctly, the last person that worked a lot on this kind of thing was Oliver Gannon when he gave us Tags etc. Maybe he would do some more work? He certainly has the knowledge, as does boss bros Peter, of course.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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.............What you do is simply visualize what the chart looks like without all the extra stuff like 1sr/2nd endings, tags, codas, DS's, and section letters. By that I mean it's like taking a pic of an existing chart with your phone and simply counting the number of bars you see and the chords you see while ignoring the other..........
Bob
Reading again your proposal Bob ( jazzmammal) I realized that my first response was due to a wrong interpretation by me from your proposal. My first impression was that you were targeting the PDFtoMusic Pro conversion. In fact the true length of the endings is missing or need to be corrected I do that by adding / correcting that stuff in the PDF at my tablet which is as easy as with pencil on paper ( even better since you can stuff as well), so I'm not printing paper anymore. My problem which is to get all stuff normally printed correctly as beïng shown in BIAB pdf print, will be shown identical when imported via musicXML, while your problem is to be able to notate it simple and correct in BIAB in order to get a correct print out with 1st/2nd endings etc. You give a methode to prevent adding all the extra stuff like 1st/2nd endings, tags, codas and DS's in BIAB if I'm correct and add it afterwards with pencil. But if you wanted partly ( or all?) that stuff can be added in BIAB if you really wanted to is my impression, as long as you print it while using the "Fake sheet mode" page representation during the print process, correct? In fact my BIAB knowledge is still too limited I noticed, to really know till what extent you can add all the stuff in BIAB for "Fake sheet mode" printing what you really want to add. I used 1st/2nd ending codas and DS's etc. several times, if I wanted to create music with repeats at one page rather then at 2 pages. So it is possible to add it. Normally I do prevent it because my routine of using the methode is so limited I rather use 8 bars in a line + using more lines at a page and write all music sequentially as we play them. Additionally some of my band members are bad in following 1st/2nd ending correctly which is another reason why I usually prevent them. But again you can add 1st/2nd ending codas and DS's if you wanted to, so why don't you? Is it too complicated or are the indications which can be added too limited? My concern is what are the limits from all the things you can add with BIAB in order to get the most complicated pdf print out you can produce. Then the next step is can it all be converted correctly into musicXML by PDFtoMusic Pro? If not what can be improved by Myriad in order to get a perfect reproduced copy from the BIAB pdf if importing it as converted musiXML. I give an simple example, without any manual corrections and without filtering anything I did use the file: Agua De Beber-Am.MGU Printed that file as: Agua De Beber-Am (Biab-print).pdf in the Fake Sheet Mode. Converted that pdf with PDFtoMusic Pro into: Agua De Beber-Am (P2M-conversion).xml Imported the XML result into Sibelius and exported the result as: Agua De Beber-Am (Sibelius-xml import).pdf and Agua De Beber-Am (Sibelius-xml import).sib Imported the XML result into MuseScore and exported the result as: Agua De Beber-Am (MuseScore-xml import).pdf and Agua De Beber-Am (MuseScore-xml import).mscz Imported the XML result into Finale and exported the result as: Agua De Beber-Am (Finale-xml import).pdf All mentioned files can downloaded via unzipping Fake BIAB's.zip: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7389688_4167795_9087518I've got a filter which can correct some specific mistakes, will resize/position chord fonts and resize/position page size, which I didn't use for this conversion. The results are pure as used during conversion and importing. I hope you will give some comments on the results. Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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You give a method to prevent adding all the extra stuff like 1st/2nd endings, tags, codas and DS's in BIAB if I'm correct and add it afterwards with pencil. But if you wanted partly ( or all?) that stuff can be added in BIAB if you really wanted to is my impression, as long as you print it while using the "Fake sheet mode" page representation during the print process, correct? Yes and no. The problem is when you add those things in Biab, when they print there's lots of overlaps like the 2nd ending line goes through some of the chords, the numbers and coda signs are too small, etc. And, there's no way to edit that stuff. Things like that are almost impossible for a player to read on stage. It's frustrating because PGM did a great job of creating fakebook style font for the chords themselves but then no way to create that same fakebook style of font and sizing for all the markings. If the coda sign for example is too small and is right next to a chord, you can't do anything about it. Can't move it, can't resize it, nothing. You mentioned XML, that's what folks have been dreaming about since forever. I do not have any kind of inside information it's just my opinion and my opinion is it simply can't be done using the existing code. Several programmers who seem to know what they're talking about have said that Biab is very old code and the only way to modernize it is with a complete rewrite which would be a huge and very expensive thing to do. I suspect that's what it would take to fix the notation which is why I said that this issue is dead to me. If PG decides to do a complete rewrite and create a whole new thing with all these enhancements including 64 bit that's fine but until then, I think it's a dead issue. If it wasn't they would have fixed it by now. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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.......Can't move it, can't resize it, nothing. OK, with that I completely agree. But resizing and moving is done if needed in choosing a correct template in the notation program which imports the musicXML. .......can't be done using the existing code. I guess you mean the BIAB program code, but I think that if they can create a PDF file it can't be difficult to create a musicXML file as well! They just don't want to invest money into a new universal language which probably won't make it in the future. But if you import a musicXML, created from a by BIAB printed PDF file converted by PDFtoMusic Pro, into a notation programs you can change, correct and add anything you like in order to create your favourite personal lay out. Only if too much work is involved to do that it isn't very useful. So if too much goes wrong during the conversion process, too much work is involved to correct all mistakes which creates much more work then the process you advices. For that reason I did add the present musicXML results in the examples if they were imported into the 3 most used notation programs in order to show what results are created. This was done without using any favourite personal templates to show what happens with the standard used template! If you created a favourite template in your personally used notation program, you can already set a lot of font-sizes and type, chord-sizes and types, page margins and lots of other things to reflect your personal favourite lay out. Importing the musicXML will instantly show your favourite lay out in that case. Additionally musicXML can be used in "Avid Scorch" at your iPad (if you have one). So you can transpose your music on the spot. The same applies for the "MuseScore Songbook" if you used the .mscz format. Simply import musicXML into "MuseScore" (free) and save it as .mscz. Did you observe the printed PDF from BIAB and compare them with the PDF's from Sibelius, Finale and MuseScore? I really liked some comments on those results! see: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7389688_4167795_9087518......If PG decides to do a complete rewrite and create a whole new thing with all these enhancements including 64 bit that's fine but until then, I think it's a dead issue. If it wasn't they would have fixed it by now. OK, with that I completely agree as well. However there are a lot of BIAB files around and I wanted to fill the gap to be able to import easily BIAB files into excisting notation programs which produce formats that can be used in apps used at tablets in order to have them fast available, with the great advantage you can TRANSPOSE all the music on the spot at your tablet. So I used PDFtoMusic Pro to produce musicXML. It took me last year to get Myriad so far that a lot has been improved. All excisting BIAB chords are perfectly recognized, a lot of strange mistakes have been solved, but it isn't still perfect. It serves already enough to be very useful. That's why I converted all 6000 available BIAB files to observe what happens and be able to give Myriad feed back about what still goes wrong in the conversion process. I think that if you use a good setting during the BIAB to PDF printing process, the converted to musicXML results are good enough to be used for the majority of the files without manually applyïng any corrections. So you just import the converted MusicXML and then print them to .mxl, .sib, .mscz or PDF using your favourite template. All processes can be done in batch-mode so you can do a whole directory with .mgu files in one run printing it to PDF. Also you can use the batch-mode with PDFtoMusic. And even in Sibelius and MuseScore for print outs in your favourite format you can use a batch mode. I don't know about Finale and others. My favourite way of making decent printed scores from BIAB is still printing it to PDF with correct print and notation window settings, converting the PDF into musicXML with PDFtoMusic Pro, importing it into Sibelius or/and MuseScore (free) using my own template and export it to my favourite formats beïng PDF, .mxl, .sib and .mscz. Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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But if you import a musicXML, created from a by BIAB printed PDF file converted by PDFtoMusic Pro, into a notation programs you can change, correct and add anything you like in order to create your favourite personal lay out.Rob Rob you seem to know more about this stuff than I do. I gig a lot, I live in Los Angeles and I'll get calls for gigs. I'll need to come up with 10 charts by Friday kind of thing. I'm not interested in a work of art music pdf file that's going to hang in the Louvre. All I want and the others in this thread want is a nice fakebook chart that I can hand out to band members that I may or may not have ever met before and they can read it without any problems. I don't know if you have fakebooks in Europe but a good fake book chart is usually one staff with the melody line and the chords above. That's it. If you've never heard the song before you're supposed to be good enough to fake it. Then there will be the 1st/2nd or even 3rd endings, and a coda or tag ending and those symbols are easy for the player to read. Nobody has time to create a PDF from an XML from a Biab file, put it into a tablet, use Paint or something else to create an overlay, use the stylus (yes I know all about that stuff), make the corrections, create a new pdf and print that. Way too much trouble. My way is much faster. If Biab could simply do that in the first place it would be even faster yet but that's not happening. Bob
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Bob, let me summarize the way you do it. If you need 10 charts at the gig friday, that you did find in your fake books somewhere, but not yet in the correct key (otherwise you could have printed it right away) for all different instruments, so you want to notate them all in BIAB and print them out in the transposed key's which you need for the different instruments you plan to play with. So after notating the stuff in BIAB, which is most work I guess, you make n x 10 different print outs by using the transposed settings in BIAB when printing for different instruments. Then add by pencil 1st/2nd endings and coda's on each sheet when needed. Nobody has time to create a PDF from an XML from a Biab file, put it into a tablet, use Paint or something else to create an overlay, use the stylus (yes I know all about that stuff), make the corrections, create a new pdf and print that. I just don't agree. This is not the order in which things should be done. Making a print out on paper or a print to pdf is the same action,saving to pdf is quicker then printing. The next step could be running the pdf with PDFtoMusic Pro to create your musicXML which only takes a few seconds more, then import it into a notation program with your favourite template (e.g. large visible chords). Their you can add your missing 1st/2nd endings and coda's in the way you like it. Then print your paper or PDF's again. Your tablet is still not involved. Once you are familiar with the different steps it is very quick. If you need to do it for 10 songs you can batch-process several steps in one directory. I realize that not beïng familiar with the procedures some barriers need to be taken, but once you know the steps it doesn't take really so much time as you suggest. And in case you have a tablet, or rather everybody used a tablet, you should never hand out paper print outs anymore but just could print it directly to PDF and send it by email to your friend musicians. Any tablet can display PDF's. If you use the correct programs everybody can add its own notations. Then at the gig a singer might come along who wants it all in a different key. Or you didn't make a copy for an instrument that wants to join the gig! You have to say sorry. I'm just tryïng to suggest some practice I experience many times at a gig or worse so at most jams. Also when rehearsing with my combo's, if music is present in one of the fake books, it is almost never in the correct key available. So yes you might need to notate it first in BIAB then hand it out next rehearsel unless the song directly can be found in the growing data base for "Avid Scorch" or "MuseScore Songbook" then we play it right away since you can transpose it on the spot on your tablet. I realize that not all guys you play with might have a tablet yet, but the number grows fast. And once they have it you can transpose it directly, and if they don't have the correct program you can transpose it for them at your own tablet and make a "screen photo to pdf" and send it by email or bluetooth to their tablet. So within seconds they have the song in the correct key available! I'm very in favour of using a tablet instead of paper and since "MuseScore Songbook" can run also on all Androïd systems many more people can make use of the transpose option. (Btw I've got a (growing) data-base of over 160 real/fake pdf books all indexed/bookmarked for searching, which might interest you, free for everybody who joins it. Can be used in iGigBook, ForScore and any other PDF reader, send a personal email ). Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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I just don't agree. This is not the order in which things should be done. Making a print out on paper or a print to pdf is the same action,saving to pdf is quicker then printing. The next step could be running the pdf with PDFtoMusic Pro to create your musicXML which only takes a few seconds more, then import it into a notation program with your favourite template (e.g. large visible chords). Their you can add your missing 1st/2nd endings and coda's in the way you like it. Then print your paper or PDF's again. Your tablet is still not involved. Once you are familiar with the different steps it is very quick. If you need to do it for 10 songs you can batch-process several steps in one directory. Ok, but a few questions. I'm always on the lookout for new things so I do appreciate your input. It looks like pdftomusicpro costs $199? Then I need another notation program to accept the XML file? Which program would you recommend that works well for the least cost? When I said my way was better that also includes not spending more cash or at least not too much. I'm not saying I would not spend some money for this but most of us commenting here want to simply use what we already have and not have to spend as much as what Biab cost us in the first place. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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OK, for a single pdf page at the time "PDFtoMusic Pro 1.5.0" ( you need this last version: http://www.myriad-online.com/en/products/pdftomusicpro.htm) it is and stays free! For many of you it may be enough already, certainly for experiments. I use a cracked Sibelius from the internet. MuseScore is a free notation program anyway. MuseScore will be the future standard notation program, no doubt. The last version is "MuseScore 2.0 Beta 2" ( http://musescore.org/en/node/42051). There is a lot to tell about all this stuff, about advantages and disadvantages, but it also changes fast since reguraly new versions with new options become available. So any disadvantage may be vanished next month. At iPad you can use "Avid Scorch" (Sibelius oriënted) and "MuseScore Songbook" (MuseScore oriënted)! At Androïd tablets only the "MuseScore Songbook" is available which can transpose. So if you like to experiment with the results in one of the apps I can give you links to Dropbox or SugarSync where you can import thousands of songs of music from my directories in all formats I've been mentioning and see how it looks like. To begin with, if you want to experiment what tablet do you want to use? IPad or Androïd oriënted? Secondly if you already use stuff at an iPad which apps are you using? IGigBook? ForScore? Avid Scorch? Btw only the payed tablet apps will do the jobs, but that's no money, so all your experiments already can start actually completely free. Since I've a lot of experience I can help you to use several stuff in an optimum way and at the same time I'll learn from all new pitfalls you guys might experience! But you need to invest some time to learn as usually! Rob
Last edited by robvh; 01/09/15 12:48 AM.
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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... I use a cracked Sibelius from the internet. MuseScore is a free notation program anyway.
Rob Hopefully just because MuseScore is free your aren't trying to justify the use of cracked commercial notation software? Yes, MuseScore is free but you can, and SHOULD, donate money (even "poor" folks who have access to PC's and music gear have a few bucks, or Euro's, to spare if they use it) and if possible and have some skill, some time and code help. OR did I misunderstand your statement? If so my apologies. Larry
Last edited by Larry Kehl; 01/09/15 05:23 AM.
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Hopefully just because MuseScore is free your aren't trying to justify the use of cracked commercial notation software? Larry, No it had nothing to do with MuseScore beïng free. My exercitions started with the 1 month Sibelius trial version because Sibelius did provide "Avid Scorch" the app which can transpose music scores. But some of my collegae musicians have Androïd tablets. They hate iPads, too expensive and too "Apple" controlled. So then in my search I discovered "MuseScore Songbook". That app is available at iPad and Androïd tablets. So now we have a similar platform which could be used by everybody. For that you needed the .mscz format from MuseScore. Since MuseScore did add the transpose function last december (I also specificly asked them to do so) my interest is shifting towards MuseScore as well. However I like the lay out of .sib in "Avid Scorch" a lot more since you can prepare it in Sibelius. So in fact I hope they will soon provide that app also for Androïd tablets although I doubt it. Fyi I did buy the full version from BIAB and PDFtoMusic Pro. Nobody does buy a full version notation program for just doïng some experiments and afterwards concluding it didn't be very useful for his purpose. So I might buy it if it suits me when I stay using it. It is not a money issue for me but a "value for money" issue. The one month trial version Sibelius was too short for all my experiments and so a friend of me provided a cracked version. I better shouldn't have mentioned it, sorry about it. MuseScore is already benifiting from my contributions Rob
Last edited by robvh; 01/09/15 08:33 AM.
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I completely understand where you're coming from Rob, just be careful about saying certain things here because PG runs a commercial forum and they could delete a post talking about some of these things.
I will look into what you're suggesting.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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......As a marketing type I am looking at the number of views of this topic. That again indicates the big interest in getting proper score printouts from BIAB! I know an awful lot of people who would update to get those improvements I'm also interested in those numbers but only to see how many people read this and how many are really interested to get there print outs on a tablet where they can TRANSPOSE "on the spot". Additionally they can exchange their music "on the spot" with other musicians. No paper involved. Saving trees! Having any music available "on the spot", binding your favourite YouTube examples "on the spot" etc.etc! And to be honest it disappoints me every time. Although a lot of my results can be downloaded and viewed right away the #people who really seem to take interest seem unbelievable low to me wrt the #readers. My public links are located at SugarSync which gives the possibility to see how many people download a specific link when I mentioned it in the forum(s). This originally posted issue (Your favorite way of making .....) is the first one which did offer some downloading (I posted earlier at other BIAB forums). May be I'm impatient. So it seems crucial where to post what! My discussion here is may be a little bit "off topic" but the longer I think about it, the more I believe it is "NOT off topic", although I've no idea what the majority off BIAB users do with the program. The "real band" side is imho the most heavy part of the program, but most users I know use it primarily to fast notate a song from a music fake book or search for a excisting song in all available BIAB files, then use the possibility to TRANSPOSE it and print it for themself or hand it out to other musicians in a correct key! What is called the "decent print out" in this forum issue? As far as I experience the print outs made by BIAB at a printer are good enough! The problems are at the notation side! Everybody wants a fast notation possibility without all the tough complexity which is offered by true notation programs. That it is exactly what is offered by BIAB, but just a little bit too less to please enough people. But times are changing fast and the world market is bigger then ever! The rat race for commercial shares is exploding. Paper printing is out. Tablets are in. Last month I attended a song contest ( yearly held for over 50th) in Amsterdam between 16 singers accompanied by a 7 heads band of real pro's. It was a variëty of singers from classic to jazz and pop. So the band had to play very different things! Already (or in my eyes only) 3 used an iPad for all their music. Next year it will be 5 if not all! You can do so much more things with a tablet then with paper. And there is nothing what you can do with paper what you can't do with your tablet! Believe me just start learning it! Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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You make a good point about Ipad notation viewing Rob. Paperless Books are already widely used (Kindle etc), but unfortunately the machines are not really big enough for reading notation, its only a matter of time that this becomes standard.
I once helped an orchestra keep tabs on its music, its really tough, do you have enough copies for that 2nd trombone, did the solo violin part actually get returned? Is it OK to simply photocopy in an institution? (Not in UK schools) . Also, as you get older its harder to see in the dark. Those music stand lights are so so, much better to have hte score backlit, resizable etc.
Its now feasible for everyone to have their own cheap large tablet sat on their music stand, and to distribute the music via network/dropbox
Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/10/15 11:10 AM.
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I had one of the first "iRex" 9.7 inch e-readers, but the company went bankrupt. It was before the iPad came along. Very nice for music reading, only the hardware was too slow and unreliable. Today you can buy several 9.7 inch e-readers which will be much better but they probably cannot compete with an iPad anyway.
May be I'll try one for outdoors sunny day gigs where you have a problem with reading an iPad.
Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Yes Rob, I don't think that many ereaders cope with all lighting conditions, but the backlit ones do, better than tablets- or at least conventional tablets.
On the subject of notation, its something I have thought about a lot. To develop a full blown notation program for BIAB seems to me to be unfeasible because there are so many special requirements. For example, adding a gracenote can throw out the rest of the bar's timing if is not treated as having no 'time segment' then there are things like the rules for direction of stems, placement of staccato and accents, ties and slurs, appoggiaturas, not to mention the specialised symbols required for specific instruments - e.g. pedal points. It's all far too complex to provide as an 'additional feature'. Where to draw the line, for a 'basic' notation package, is very hard to decide, it depends on your preferences as a musician, its different if you are a church organist as opposed to a realbook player
My view is that if BIAB can provide a lead sheet this is good enough, as long as one can export the MIDI and work on it elsewhere if desired. I would be happy with read only notation. (IMO)
10 inches (IPAD)....would be a bit small for my eyes, I would need a 14 inch screen at least.
Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/10/15 11:15 AM.
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Sibelius seems to be the software of choice when I asked other members of my band, but they don't use BIAB.
Bob Hi Bob, be aware that there are Rumours that Sibelius may be in its last incarnation. All the developers are working for Steinberg I believe. Z
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Thanks, and yes I've heard that as well. After posting my earlier comment about using Sibelius, I had second thoughts (and a look at my wallet), and decided to give Musescore more careful scrutiny. The new beta version of Musescore seems to fill my needs for now, so I am going to work with it for a while.
BTW, this has been a very interesting and informative discussion. Thanks to all who posted their comments.
Bob
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.........Where to draw the line, for a 'basic' notation package, is very hard to decide, it depends on your preferences as a musician, its different if you are a church organist as opposed to a realbook player. I'm a realbook player, not an organist nor a composer. Basicly BIAB suits me. It's absolutely useless to try to upgrade BIAB to a level that comes close to any real notation program. BIAB is good enough to notate simple fake book music. But then if you want to use the notated stuff from BIAB you want to exchange it correctly with any other medium without the need to start correcting it. From my limited experience with BIAB my impression is that if you print it on paper it is OK. If you print it to PDF you get the same result, as far as I experience it. That seems OK to. So what is left is how to exchange it with a real notation program and/or with an app from a tablet. Here we have 3 possibilities (which I know of) either using midi or musicXML or converting via the .mgu import from MuseScore. BIAB exports midi. I know what midi is but have no experience with it. From the experience I had with by exporting midi and using it as input for any othe notation or whatever program the result is barely a shadow from the original print. So you need a complete workover which is that time consuming that you better could have imported the music manually! Iow, useless imho! So what is left? Same applies for the MuseScore conversion which reads .mgu. Left is musicXML, but BIAB doesn't support it. So the next option is PDFtoMusic Pro which translates the PDF into musicXML. Almost all programs support musicXML input as does the Avid Scorch iPad app. The PDF to musicXML conversion is such a good job that most of the time I can use it without any corrections at all. I like to explain for people who are not familiar with PDF to musicXML or for the ones who have a bad experience that there are 2 kinds of PDF.'s. The ones that contain pictures which basicly are scanned and the ones that have vectorised music PDF exported from a notation program. Most PDF's contain pictures, they are very hard to convert and the results are bad, so the majority who ever tried the conversion programs easily may conclude that it is useless. However music notation programs generally properly export PDF in a vectorised musical format. Also the BIAB PDF's are vectorised PDF's. That are PDF's that can be converted much better into musicXML. Nevertheless it is still tough and since 3 steps are involved: BIAB to PDF, PDF to musicXML and musicXML to any notation program or app. All three are prone to creating a mess if the job isn't done properly. So PDFtoMusic Pro can only convert vectorised PDF's. Anticipating on the variëty of settings that can be used by BIAB while printing is quite impossible. So if you print you should avoid some settings. So what I do is, run the BIAB printed pdf with "optimum print settings" and use the by PDFtoMusic Pro produced musicXML as input for either Sibelius, MuseScore or directly for "Avid Scorch!". There is one note to make, afterwards I filter the musicXML for some rubbish to prevent basicly all wrongly interpreted slurs and ties and some other stuff. Everybody who wants to experiment can get my input for it. What I don't know is what kind of BIAB notation work is around that challenges the limits of what PDFtoMusic is capable of! Therefor I used the 6000 BIAB files from the BIAB Yahoo Group as a reference to confront Myriad with what all goes wrong. I've no idea if those 6000 BIAB files can be seen as an optimum trial. Neither did I compare all 6000 musicXML output printed as PDF again with the originally scanned input from BIAB. My time is limited. All this was done in batch-mode. It all can be found in the links I supplied. Everybody can compare them and comment. Each time when I discovered mistakes in my own files I did analyse them and tried to have Myriad to solve it. Myriad has done a hughes job but I can't expect them to solve mistakes caused by the BIAB to PDF process. The program is developed for general use and not for BIAB of course! So it is still not perfect, but it certainly is very useful imho. I'm using it every day for converting my BIAB files into musicXML ( or rather .mxl afterwards ). And it suits me doïng nothing but converting and using the results right away without correcting anything! So who wants to supply me with (an) additional BIAB file(s) from which he thinks exchanging the way he did it ( using midi) was a hell of a job. Then I can prove that the way I do it might be very easy! I like to be able to compare and discuss the problems, so we can learn from it. Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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To experiment yourself with creating musicXML from BIAB I did write a "Quick and Dirty" manual wich includes links to all the programs you need to start your experiments. It's all free downloadable. Also more details are given if you want to adopt the methode. BIAB2musicXML MANUAL.pdf - download at: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D7389688_4167795_9082656Enjoy music, Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Last week the app "MuseScore Songbook" added the property "Original" for the sizes in which music is displayed. Additionally any size can be choosen.
This is really great news for any tablet user, iPad and Androïd oriënted tablets. With "Original" (now the default) the music is shown as printed from the notation program, which means honoring the original number of measures per line.
Then of course remember this app can 'transpose" your music on the spot!
(For creating files: BIAB to PDF, then PDF to MusicXML, then MusicXML to .mscz. Mscz is the format you need for your app! Use PDFtoMusic Pro for conversion to MusicXML and MuseScore for conversion to .mscz, if problems let me know)
Rob
Last edited by robvh; 07/12/15 09:36 PM.
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Funny, I was thinking of this thread because yesterday I had a rehearsal for a gig this Friday where we have a different bass player and he needed 4 charts. Luckily these individual tunes fit on one page with no 1st/2nd endings or codas. I printed them from Biab and for one I just handwrote, "tag the last 4 and end".
I also did a big band gig last Saturday for the first time in months and it struck me how big those charts are. I didn't measure them but they're bigger than standard and this illustrates the problem with using tablets. They've been making big band charts that big for years because on dark stages using stand lights players of all ages and eyesight abilities have to be able to read them easily. an iPad would be out of the question and even a bigger full size tablet might not be too good either.
I just did a quick search and it seems the standard big band orchestra size paper is 9.5 X 12.5". At least in the US.
For me if I'm doing a standard small group jazz gig I can read a basic real book type chart on a 10" (diagonal) tablet but for something else where I really need to read some notation along with the chords that's too small. I still need my minimum 8.5 X 11" paper.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob, I do understand your concerns. But I like to add several remarks. Standard in Europe we use A4 ( ca 8.2" x 11.6"). Subtract the free edges and the really used spaces for music is 7.5" x 9.5". But on an iPad you use the max available screen space 5.8" x 7.8". This is 26% smaller then A4. In practice if you size the chords 26% larger the chords size is about the same as on paper if you wish. Then if more pages are needed you may need a foot pedal. Then iPad seems to launch a larger 12" screen version ( http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/ipad/ipad-pro-plus-release-date-rumours-force-touch-poll-ios-9-run-osx-3492180/ ). Then larger screens exist as well ( http://mashable.com/2014/08/19/fuhu-big-tablet/ ). Basicly many especially older people do have all kind of reasons not to switch to paperless music reading, since any new technique needs a learning curve (I'm 76 and more then happy with my iPad). Nevertheless I just notice that also in the professional music business for both classical and entertainment music, iPad's and alikes are used everywhere. In the Netherlands I should say about 30% of the musicians is already using it. No printing, directly exchange any music, transpose it for your instrument or the singers voice, etc.etc. Correcting, erasing, you name it. Don't miss the boat!! My concern that iPad was the only one which had a decent music reading (and writing/correcting) tool(s) is slowly vapourating. The "MusicScore Songbook" is available for iPad and any Androïd tablet. I'm still waiting for "ForScore" to enter the OS Androïd market. Rob
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Things are coming along no doubt. If I'm familiar with some tune but don't have it memorized like what happened a few years ago when a sax player sat in, he pulled it up on his phone using iRealB, put it on my stand and I could read it ok. But that's because it was another standard AABA jazz tune that I sort of knew but not quite, you know?
But take something that's more modern and certainly not standard like some Lorber tunes such as Watersign or Toads Place. I'm supposed to catch those fully written out keyboard parts and no way could I do that on even an 8" screen. I need my full size black on white fake book chart with lots of light.
I keep checking up on this stuff by reading threads like this and talking to other players. Yes, I've seen a good number using their iPads on stage but again, they're 99% standard stuff that they already pretty much know. They're just using the iPad as a memory crutch. But I've talked about this, if somebody calls a more complicated tune that they've never heard of much less played before, then you could have a problem reading that because you have to be able to see the notation clearly and for that you need your full size fake book.
The other thing of course is the cost. The largest tablets are not cheap when I already have all the books.
But on my third (or fourth?) other hand the idea of having my 1,000's of charts digitized and inside a nice sized device is very appealing.
I know I'll get there eventually.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob, Since you mentioned some examples like Watersign and Toad's Place, it made me curious to see what exactly you are referring to. So I searched for both songs available in my iGigBook library at the iPad, which contains some 160 books including the Classical Real Book Vol ll C, Bb or Eb versions which contain both songs. I copied both into "ForScore", sized the pages to maximum and asked myself "can I read this easily?" The screen size of the standard iPad is 9.7" ( not 8"), the readibility of mentioned files is perfect (even when not resized it was already good enough). No offense, but you need to be pretty blind if you can't read it, unless you wanted both pages at one screen ( both songs contain 2 pages). So for me paging can easily be done manually, although a foot pedal may make it probably easier. This is a matter of taste. Paging manually is so quick and easy that I ( as a keyboard player ) can do it without a foot pedal anyway. I always copy found pages from "iGigBook" into "ForScore" since this app has all the possibilities like making corrections, notations and, resizing, organizing, etc.etc. like anything you can do with paper sheets and more. No offense again, but your examples didn't make much sense to me. Then of course you need to buy an iPad if you haven't one already. If you have one I can help you (anybody) to get started and have your 1.000's of charts very quickly. Rob
Last edited by robvh; 07/17/15 10:26 AM.
Musicians and music publishers are still wasting too much paper...come on men we live in the digitised age...Wake up!
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
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For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
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Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
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If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
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