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#274646 - 12/15/14 05:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: PeterGannon]
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1031
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
You folks are much more knowledgeable than I in these technical matters and ,as a result, perhaps you could clarify a point for me.

In in Peter's post there is a quote: "and the system's memory manager keeps track of memory mapping, which applications are using which memory, page file management, and so on".

One of the advantages to a 64 bit system, to my way of thinking, is that a 64 bit, using more RAM, allows a system to have less dependency on swapping to the page file on the hard drive. Is my thinking correct?
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#274650 - 12/15/14 05:22 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: sixchannel]
DHD Offline
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Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 42
Loc: Maine USA
Originally Posted By: sixchannel
One mans meat -- etc.
Go to 64 bit and keep MJames as a customer but lose me??
I'm not about to change my XP based PC any time soon - too many "old" programs that work perfectly and won't on Win8.
Peter, no matter what you do, you won't please all of the people all of the time.
Ian


I agree with sixchannel.
I've got too many old programs that would be too expensive to replace.
The jump to 64 bit would be too costly for me.
You'd lose my yearly biab upgrade if the 32 bit biab disappeared.


Edited by DHD (12/15/14 05:23 AM)
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#274660 - 12/15/14 06:04 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: DHD]
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11054
Loc: Hamlin NY
FYI- 64-bit Win 7 Pro has a 32-bit emulator. Every old 32-bit program that I tried with it works, including Windows Office 97 and Corel Photopaint 7. Corel Photopaint 7 is a Win 95 program.

It was because of the emulators that I chose Win 7 Pro.
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64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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#274671 - 12/15/14 06:25 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11054
Loc: Hamlin NY
As most of you know I am a big proponent for 64-bit and in fact BiaB is the only NEW 32-bit program on my system. I am going to speak for myself but I do believe that many others wanting 64-bit feel the same way I do.

I do not want the current BiaB/RB just converted to 64-bit. I would like a complete rewrite in both 32 and 64 bit that includes but not limited to real support for time signatures other than n/4 (6/8, 12/8, 5/4, 7/4 etc), a better GUI, improved VST and VSTi support, chord input every 16th note, using all 16 MIDI channel as I see fit (MIDI, RTs, thru, MIDI guitar, etc), etc.

I know that this may be impossible with the current PGMusic staff at this time. However they do allow me to respectfully wish for such a rewrite. Thank you for that.
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The only exercise I did this month was run out of money!

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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#274695 - 12/15/14 09:06 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MarioD]
Cerio Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 790
Loc: Spain
Originally Posted By: MarioD

I do not want the current BiaB/RB just converted to 64-bit. I would like a complete rewrite in both 32 and 64 bit that includes but not limited to real support for time signatures other than n/4 (6/8, 12/8, 5/4, 7/4 etc), a better GUI, improved VST and VSTi support, chord input every 16th note, using all 16 MIDI channel as I see fit (MIDI, RTs, thru, MIDI guitar, etc), etc.

I know that this may be impossible with the current PGMusic staff at this time. However they do allow me to respectfully wish for such a rewrite. Thank you for that.





+1

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#274696 - 12/15/14 09:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MarioD]
Jeff S Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 81
Ok I'm late to the party on this one but I have a couple of questions. Is the current bar limit in BIAB which I think is 255 (correct me if I'm wrong) a limit imposed by the 32 bit architecture and thus memory limit? Or is it just that the programmers haven't figured out to do that yet? The track count we can currently have playing at one time is I think 7 if you count the melodist and soloist. Is that limit based on 32 bit architecture limitations or just a programming decision.

I ask these questions because everyone is debating whether or not there is any benefit going to 64 bit. If the answer to these questions is the limits are imposed by the 32 bit architecture than I would say yes there would be a benefit. Particularly the bar limit which has been a frequent request over the last few years.

If it's programming then how about we get these done before adding some fancy video editor. Also is the ancient UI (yes its still ancient) a limit of the 32 bit architecture? These are legitimate questions. These are things people have been asking for and since no reason has been given why they have yet to be implemented I think most people think it would take a 64 bit rewrite to get them.

Now in all honesty the program works for what I use it for and if I'm honest with myself I probably don't need a 64 bit version. I will say this though. Despite all the wonderful things this program does it looks old. There are a lot of people who will not buy it because it looks old. The fact that you can't buy a new 32 bit computer by perception alone makes this program old. How many more units could PGM sell if they addressed the UI alone? How much more legitimacy would they gain in the professional audio market?

I love this program, it has allowed me to create music I could never do on my own. If the questions I posed can be addressed in the current 32 bit system then lets get this done. If it requires a 64 bit rewrite to get them then lets get it done and quit moaning about it. Everybody benefits.

The 32 bit version is great and if they stopped developing it today it won't effect any current user. Why all the 32 bit guys are afraid a 64 bit version will somehow change the 32 bit version to no longer work or be available I don't know. It is what it is. The 64 bit would be a new product ( a stand alone product) or at least it should be.

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#274699 - 12/15/14 09:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17322
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Jeff, I could be completely wrong, but I don't think either of the first two examples you gave are related to the difference between 32-bit versus 64-bit architecture of the application program or operating system.

255 is actually an 8-bit concept. The range from 0 to 255 is 256 total values, expressed as 2 raised to the eighth power. The architecture of the program or operating system has not been the limit for that for many decades, and the answer to why there is the 255 measure limit lies elsewhere.

As for the 7 usable channels, I believe that limit is related to one bank of MIDI that has 16 channels. You may only see 7 but there are more used when you have the guitar broken out into separate tracks for export, and/or use the MIDI harmonies available in BIAB from the pull-down menu. For example, take a look at Preferences, Channels and then click on Harmony. You will see channels 11 through 14 used for harmony. In other words, there goes four more tracks in addition to the more obvious seven that you thought were the limit. MIDI channel 1 used to be commonly used by some programs for control information, so there goes one more...

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#274704 - 12/15/14 09:43 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MarioD]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4676
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: MarioD
As most of you know I am a big proponent for 64-bit and in fact BiaB is the only NEW 32-bit program on my system. I am going to speak for myself but I do believe that many others wanting 64-bit feel the same way I do.

I do not want the current BiaB/RB just converted to 64-bit. I would like a complete rewrite in both 32 and 64 bit that includes but not limited to real support for time signatures other than n/4 (6/8, 12/8, 5/4, 7/4 etc), a better GUI, improved VST and VSTi support, chord input every 16th note, using all 16 MIDI channel as I see fit (MIDI, RTs, thru, MIDI guitar, etc), etc.

I know that this may be impossible with the current PGMusic staff at this time. However they do allow me to respectfully wish for such a rewrite. Thank you for that.








Exactly. Outstanding summation, Mario. To me, this one would be the most important:


"...chord input every 16th note..." cool


I must say that I find it amusing that with a program that does all this one can do, people constantly complain about bit depth, graphics, menus, etc. Sure, every user has a wishlist of changes that would benefit him/her personally. Chord input every 16th would would make BIAB 500% more useful to me, but to someone else? Who knows?

I lack the technical knowledge of the computer experts here (Like Dr. Gannon), so I'm not qualified to voice an opinion on 32 vs.64. In fact, reading this thread gave me a headache. grin

I have been using the program for a few years now though, and I've barely scratched the surface of it's capabilities. It is the greatest songwriting tool every invented.

Now, if it only had chord entry every 16th, it would be the greatest greatest songwriting tool ever! laugh
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#274705 - 12/15/14 09:46 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: 90 dB]
Larry Kehl Online   content
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Registered: 06/04/00
Posts: 2088
Loc: New Mexico
Aaarrrggghhhh!! (not you 90 DB, you are just the last post I'm attaching to)

I worked with a guy who is famous (in very small closed circles) for saying:

"There is no horse so dead it can't be beat some more"

but even he would think this thread is now bordering on the absurd.

So may as well jump in here - but first let it be known I am above all an unabashed free market capitalist pig (who would have pulled out finger nails - not water boarded), but I digress.

Back to BIAB: that crappy, slow, dodgy, never runs, can't possibly make any music with it (because it looks ugly, duh? Susan Boyle is no model either), POS software which, can't even load ubiquitous terabyte and awesome unlooped side stick rim shots or petabyte sine wave flutes.


OK here's what you do to fix PG's wagon:

1. First, and this is important: only those experienced programmers, who are obviously working on bleeding edge classified real-time SW for LM, Boeing, Raytheon, other, but unnamed, corps., etc., and who have hands-on expertise in AdA and other real-time critical appropriate languages (C++ is NOT - but pretends to be) force PG to go public. (with those qualifications and being tops in your field of writing RT SW - how you folks also have time to write Grammy, CMA, … winning songs is beyond me).

2. Now this group needs to pool your money and buy at least 51% of the now public stock.

3. Then get seats on the board and fire the President (wish I could fire MINE), and fire the CEO, CFO, COO, CPO, CM(usic)O, and all other PG staff.

4. Then hire all new staff (but I guess you do not really need to; because, you are already better than PG staff)

5. Then do a slick re-write so that BIAB looks shiny new like polished chrome and glass. Also make it web based, think first "Open Web DAW" (analogous to Office 360, etc. ). And since you are all that good you can even make it run real-time over the web to sample accurate timing levels so all users can jam together with no lag time (unlike us mortals who can't do this on high speed data links).

6. Also we don’t want to leave anybody out or hamper their ability to modify at will and "have it their way" so may as well make it open source code as well. The plus here is that you have bragging rights over the much vaunted an oft pointed to Reaper because even they don’t have open source code (those money grubbin' has beens).

7. Don’t want to be "behind the times" so this flawless, bug free, complied code should require MINIMUM PC specs (for this 21st century AHAB[iab] "Acerbic Human Arranger of Bands [in a box]) of :"

i7-5960x or better (min clock 4ghz), 32 GB DDR4 3333MHZ RAM, Win 9 (since it's almost here), with MINIMUM HDD access times no less than SOTA solid-state drives (using CY 2014 reference period).


8. Now sell it for a break-even price of (to the scores of users who buy it)? This is all altruistic right?

Larry


Edited by Larry Kehl (12/15/14 01:02 PM)
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#274707 - 12/15/14 09:58 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17322
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Larry, I love the "Windows 9" part, as Microsoft skipped right over it! [I think 10 is great so far]
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#274708 - 12/15/14 09:59 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: Larry Kehl]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5509
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Larry Kehl
Aaarrrggghhhh!!
"There is no horse so dead it can't be beat some more"


Ditto that! cry

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#274725 - 12/15/14 11:33 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: Matt Finley]
Jeff S Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 81
Thanks for the clarification Matt. I don't use midi very much and rely on real tracks almost exclusively so I was operating under the assumption there are only 7 tracks.

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#274732 - 12/15/14 12:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17322
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Jeff, you're welcome (assuming I was even correct). I've long ago come to the conclusion there is an awful lot we users do not know.
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BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#274851 - 12/16/14 04:55 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: jcland]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8138
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: jcland
Can someone give me a logical reason why after all these years we are still stuck with the 8.3 naming hierarchy on the style names? That in itself seems obviously archaic in this day and age.

...

How about it PGMusic, you can keep it as a 32bit program for now but at least give us the ability to use something other than 8.3 in naming styles.


JC, this is a good question, but deserves it's own topic rather than simply tagging on to the subject of 64 bit programs.
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#275770 - 12/20/14 08:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
av84fun Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 388
Why did I know there would be ANOTHER Donnybrook on the 64 vs. 32 bit saga.

Lots of interesting posts but I just have to say that the "etc." and "21st Century" comments are unhelpful to say the least.

Given the significant size of this thread and the massive aggregate size of similar threads, comments and explanations of SPECIFIC "A vs.B" examples are all too rare.

BIAB works fine for me but I must admit I've not attempted to configure the software so that songs could be written during the 3g phase of the next spacecraft launch.

Such a pitty.

Or maybe we should have an interface so that we could attach a biab hard drive to a Drone and write songs while the HD is on its way to a collaborator. Think of all the bandwidth we'd save not having to e-mail the file!!!

(-:

Jim

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#322229 - 12/01/15 04:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
solidrock Offline
Expert

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 1827
Ok, that was a good old chin wage, served zero purpose, now lets get back to PG DOS in 2016.

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#322284 - 12/01/15 09:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
MikeK Offline
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Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 2069
Loc: Buford, GA
Reviving this tread from a year ago doesn't take ANYTHING away from me enjoying the goodies in BIAB 2016 32 Bit one BIT! laugh

'nuff said....
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#322346 - 12/02/15 07:36 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
pax-eterna Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 10/19/15
Posts: 139
TBH, I am a dedicated 64bit PC person, however I don't really have any issues with BIAB being native 32b. I have not come across any problems caused directly by this. And using external 64bit applications is well covered by J-Bridge.

I guess from a "purists" p.o.v. it might be important, but from a real world perspective, and jmo of course, all runs as it should.

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#322520 - 12/02/15 05:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: MJames]
lingyai Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 113
Gentlemen,

Not wishing for a pillow-fight with anyone here, but I think I have a new point to make.

I read through this thread fully, to be sure whether my following point – about a very specific, useful, real-world benefit which a 64 bit BIAB would bring, for me and I suspect many potential new users as well – had been dealt with squarely and decisively before posting here.

I believe it has not – although it has been mentioned a few times, sometimes as though it were a settled question.

In summary: Having tested this, I believe – correct me please if you've actually experienced otherwise – that while you can, within BIAB, use jbridge to run a 64 bit VSTi like Kontakt, you cannot load that instance of Kontakt up with more than a couple GB of of libraries, the way you can with a 64-bit host.

In detail...

I have invested a lot in some very nice Kontakt libraries. I am not being snooty here, but they sound simply worlds better, in my opinion, than SampleTank or any of the other things in 32 bit BIAB through which we can play out midi. I think this is the reason that Kontakt is, I understand from other forums, very commonly used as a staple tool by professional composers, whereas Sampletank, well … a lot less so.

Some of these Kontakt libraries are hugely RAM-intensive. I have had multis (or collections, in Kontakt-speak) of orchestral instruments going fine in 64-bit Sonar, where around 9 gb of samples were employed. I went 64-bit, when I got a PC with 16 GB of RAM, so I could do just that.

Yes, when j-bridged, 32 bit BIAB will let me load up and play libraries in 64 bit Kontakt – but only if the Kontakt instruments stay below the memory limits imposed by BIAB's 32-bit design.

But I cannot load that same 9 gb multi into Kontakt when using it as a VSTi within BIAB. Someone in this thread mentioned that they had not “torture tested” this. Well, I have. It triggers “Kontakt out of memory” errors. As you'd expect. Jbridge allows 32 and 64 bit software to communicate, but it does not give BIAB the RAM “heavy lifting” power imposed by its 32-bit design. It doesn't suddenly suspend the memory “law of gravity” which, as I understand it, constrains all 32 bit programs.

I know there are workarounds. For example, I can load the best midi playback device available in BIAB, then start creating a song, browsing styles etc – but in the end, I have to imagine, when auditioning things, how it would sound through my ultimate intended soundset (i.e. Kontakt). If I want to hear it through Kontakt, I have to stop, export my all my candidate arrangements, load them into Sonar, play them, then decide if I'd chosen well … if not, then back to BIAB. This sometimes takes many iterations.

This works, but – apart from being a bit of a pain in the old rump roast – it deprives me of something very powerful – when inspiration strikes, the ability to hear the intended result while composing. Because what you hear in turn affects what you compose (which includes, in BIAB, which styles you pick, what variations you apply, etc). We all know this virtuous feedback loop.

Now, imagine, for some bizarre reason, you wanted to write a Hendrix-style guitar part, but restircted yourself to doing it on an acoustic, imagining how it would sound after being run through the magic pedals and amp and played with a whammy bar.

Or it's just like in Photoshop, you expect to be able to see the changes you've instructed as you make them. Imagine if Photoshop permitted you only to specify changes (for example, adjust contrast by x%, saturation by y%) but you'd have to view the results in other software. You'd do a lot of back and forth, wouldn't you? And maybe murmur “h-e-double hockey sticks, why is this necessary” a few times, I'd suspect.

That is exactly what I do when I want to use BIAB's midi styles for multipart compositions written for my preferred Kontakt libraries. The workaround is not only a pain, but it is just not the same. I lose the feedback loop.

Moreover, as nice as some of the Sampletank patches are, they sometimes sound so different from the Kontakt ones that I'd use, that the Sampletank patches are not a useful guide to me when I am auditioning styles. Sometimes something will sound great in Sampletank but not Kontakt, and vice-versa. For example, I have a Kontakt cello with programming which permits very expressive legato playing. Sampletank's cello (even from Miroslav) will shed little light on what the midi it's playing within BIAB will sound like through the Kontakt cello.

For this reason, I don't use BIAB near as much as I'd hoped to. For RealTracks it's brilliant, and fine in 32 bit. For midi, when using large libraries, it's off-putting. It's a genuine obstacle to music- making, not some groundless whining about 64 bit for its own sake.

It's been mentioned here that it seems most BIAB users don't care about 64 bit. That could well be true, if we are just talking about present users, and we assume they are fairly represented on this forum.

But if you want to talk about additional, new users – you know, the ones who aren't here yet? – well, could it be that they are not here because they never got past the – to many, now ancient historical – “32-bit only” drawback. Outside this forum, it does seem pretty horse-and-buggy, an easy reason for folks to not even investigate.

Think about it. BIAB is so powerful – it could easily could be, say, a professional composer's best friend, or at least one of them. But professionals these days use 64 -bit, and have for quite a while, so they can access the power of Kontakt, UVI and other RAM-hoggy but top-flight virtual instruments which they have come to take for granted. You're not hearing their voices here, because they're not here.


Edited by lingyai (12/02/15 05:59 PM)
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#322541 - 12/02/15 06:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Not Buying Another Upgrade Until BIAB is 64 Bit. [Re: lingyai]
Pumps2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/02/15
Posts: 42
Originally Posted By: lingyai

For RealTracks it's brilliant, and fine in 32 bit. For midi, when using large libraries, it's off-putting ...

Think about it. BIAB is so powerful – it could easily could be, say, a professional composer's best friend, or at least one of them. But professionals these days use 64 -bit, and have for quite a while, so they can access the power of Kontakt, UVI and other RAM-hoggy but top-flight virtual instruments which they have come to take for granted. You're not hearing their voices here, because they're not here.


The realstyles are wonderful, but that forces you to work entirely within BIAB, and that is just not a platform that makes much sense for any professional writer/arranger.

I do use BIAB quite often to create a starting bed for arrangements. This is always a MIDI -based process because that is the only practical way to get the material to line up in the notation program. The end result is a notation file that can support playback that sounds realistic enough for demo purposes.

I don't see the lack of 64 bit as being as much of a problem as the general lack of priority on MIDI-based styles. Most of the newer BIAB styles cannot be saved to MIDI. They added 201 RealTracks and 3 MIDI tracks in this release!?

I really don't get the obsession with RealTracks in a world that is moving so quickly to DAW / VST technology.
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DAWs: StudioOne Pro, Cubase 9.5 Pro
Audio: Scarlett 18i20
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From the program manual:
[Save As] | Save as video
-In the Make Notation Video dialog, select a track at the upper left corner. (Note: The dialog title says “Make Chord Sheet Video” until you select a track.)
-You can also set the dimension (width/height) of the video and select the number of frames per second and a specific codec.
-Press the [OK - Render Video] button to start rendering the video. When the video has been created, press the [Show Video File] button.
-You can then double click on the file to watch the rendered video.

Note: A special use of this feature is to combine a Video RealTracks (new with version 2018) with the corresponding notation in a single video. This creates an educational video, which shows the actual performance with notation/tab, playing over your chord progression! To do this, right-click on the Master button or one of the track buttons at the top of the main screen and select Render Video(s) from the menu.

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac Resource - Individual New Features Videos

The release of Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac added 50+ new features and enhancements, Video RealTracks, 202 new RealTracks, and more!

Here is a summary of the videos created to highlight the new additions and features:
(click on the title to play the video)
-Everything you need to know in under 5 minutes!
-Complete New Features Video
-2018 Audio Chord Wizard
-Piano Roll Window
-Vocal Ooh & Aahs
-Audio Harmonies
-Video RealTracks
-202 NEW RealTracks
-40 Bonus RealTracks in the 2018 49-PAK

Summer NAMM 2018 Shout Out!

We were just down in Nashville for the 2018 Summer NAMM show. We were especially excited to attend this trade show as we've had a number or musicians record RealTracks for us in Nashville, and we hoped to meet them in person!

Click here to see everyone who stopped by!

From left to right:

RealTracks Producer Mike Harrison, PG Music's own Tobin Frank, and RealTracks Artist Wanda Vick
RealTracks Artist Eddy Dunlap & Tobin
Tobin with RealTracks Artist Brent Mason
RealTracks Artists Dave Cleveland and Darin Favorite with Mike and Tobin
Tobin with Brent Mason, Mike Harris, and Darin Favorite
Mike & RealTracks Artist Jelly Roll Johnson
Tobin & RealTracks Artist Jason Roller
Tobin with RealTracks Artist Tony King
Band-in-a-Box Endorser Bobby Cochran with Tobin & Mike

Special thanks to Mike and all the RealTracks Artists and PG Endorsers who stopped by. It was so great to meet everyone!!

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