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I have a question related to all this about stability.

In the file cited by Dr. Gannon, the discussion of Ableton Live https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/64bit-myths-facts/ , there was this statement about using JBridge in a 64-bit host to run a 32-bit plugin:

"It is to be expected that a plug-in translated in this manner will never run as dependably as a 32-bit plug-in in a 32-bit host or a true 64-bit plug-in in a 64-bit host."

Following up, I could not find a statement specifically about the stability of the reverse, namely running a 64-bit plugin using JBridge and a 32-bit host (in this case, BIAB). It is great that JBridge now allows BIAB to use 64-bit plugins, and absolutely magnificent that more than 4GB can be accessed by the plugin in this way (that was a real surprise). So, the only thing remaining to justify BIAB going to a 64-bitm app seems to me to be increased stability, if the Ableton statement above is accurate:

"a plug-in translated in this manner will never run as dependably as a 32-bit plug-in in a 32-bit host or a true 64-bit plug-in in a 64-bit host." (emphasis addded)


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It seems to me that the percentage of BIAB users who could take advantage of a 64 bit system would be very small. There are a lot of BIAB users (from reading a lot of the posts), who are still using 32 bit Win XP and Win 7 machines. Would it be profitable for PG Music to maintain 2 separate apps? I can see that a few years into the future everything will be 64 bit, but for now PG can't leave the older systems in the dust. Ray

Last edited by raymb1; 12/12/14 04:44 PM.

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Hi Noel, Peter; Right, but at first i only saw a demo version 1.7beta there, and mailed J about updates, since i already licensed it ... no reply for a few days yet ... i mailed him again today -F

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Quote:
Question: If you have 24 gigs of ram and you're running a plugin that needs that much can you use it?

Peter: Yes, with jbridge you can use a 64 bit plugin that uses 24GB of memory if you want.


And:

Quote:
The tests I've seen have shown no difference in running time on 32 bit vs. 64 bit. There might be specialized applications that would run faster (or slower) on 64 bit, but for an app like BiaB, I wouldn't see much difference. Audio is 16 bit for example, hard to see how 64 bit benefits things there.


Mal, I don't believe this. What is it with some of you guys?

If you have 24 gigs of ram, you use all 24. There is no speed difference in running 32 bit vs 64 bit. Peter says Biab is using JBridge just fine. WHAT ELSE IS THERE? It's like you're stuck in a rut, saying the same things over and over regardless of what the one person in this thread who really knows everything there is to know about Biab is saying.

You are ASSUMING that just because Biab is 64 bit everything will be mo' better. You have to have some technical evidence of that other than just guessing that it's so. Peter said earlier he doesn't see a concrete reason to go 64 bit yet. He also made the point that audio is still 16 bit. Do you have an answer for that? Sounds like a good point to me. Give him a real, solid, technical reason to do it, not simple stuff like "everybody else is doing it so it must be good".

Bob


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Originally Posted By: malevans
..... The main reason has to be the utilization of memory on Windows Ultimate. Ok, I have used jBridge for ages and it works, but this is a 'stop gap' only.

With an increase in the availability of 64-bit processors and larger capacities of RAM, Microsoft and Apple both have begun to develop and release upgraded versions of their operating systems that are designed to take full advantage of the new technology. In the case of Microsoft Windows, the basic versions of the operating systems put software limitations on the amount of RAM that can be used by applications, but even in the ultimate and professional version of the operating system, 4 GB is the maximum usable memory the 32-bit version can handle. While a 64-bit operating system can increase the capabilities of a processor drastically, the real jump in power comes from software designed with this architecture in mind.


I just want to be able to run quite a few large programs in RAM together in Windows Ultimate, like cubase, biab and realband, video editing stuff and more when working on something without having to boot each program or even OS separately ... all the other stuff is 64bit, only PG stuff not. - F

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@jazzmammal

You seem to be confusing things and please don't attribute comments that I have not said, to me.

I am not referring to speed. I am referring to stability.

Permit me to use a Wiki quote:

"A 64-bit processor performs best with 64-bit software.
A 64-bit processor has backward compatibility and will handle most 32-bit software.
A 32-bit processor is not compatible with 64-bit software.

A common misconception is that 64-bit architectures are no better than 32-bit architectures unless the computer has more than 4 GB of random access memory.[29] This is not entirely true:

Some operating systems and certain hardware configurations limit the physical memory space to 3 GB on IA-32 systems, due to much of the 3–4 GB region being reserved for hardware addressing; see 3 GB barrier; 64-bit architectures can address far more than 4 GB. However, IA-32 processors from the Pentium II onward allow for a 36-bit physical memory address space, using Physical Address Extension (PAE), which gives a 64 GB physical address range, of which up to 62 GB may be used by main memory; operating systems that support PAE may not be limited to 4GB of physical memory, even on IA-32 processors. However, drivers and other kernel mode software, particularly older versions, may not be compatible with PAE.
Some operating systems reserve portions of process address space for OS use, effectively reducing the total address space available for mapping memory for user programs. For instance, 32-bit Windows reserves 1 or 2 GB (depending on the settings) of the total address space for the kernel, which leaves only 3 or 2 GB (respectively) of the address space available for user mode. This limit is much higher on 64-bit operating systems.
Memory-mapped files are becoming more difficult to implement in 32-bit architectures as files of over 4 GB become more common; such large files cannot be memory-mapped easily to 32-bit architectures—only part of the file can be mapped into the address space at a time, and to access such a file by memory mapping, the parts mapped must be swapped into and out of the address space as needed. This is a problem, as memory mapping, if properly implemented by the OS, is one of the most efficient disk-to-memory methods.
Some 64-bit programs, such as encoders, decoders and encryption software, can benefit greatly from 64-bit registers, while the performance of other programs, such as 3D graphics-oriented ones, remains unaffected when switching from a 32-bit to a 64-bit environment.
Some 64-bit architectures, such as x86-64, support more general-purpose registers than their 32-bit counterparts (although this is not due specifically to the word length). This leads to a significant speed increase for tight loops since the processor does not have to fetch data from the cache or main memory if the data can fit in the available registers.
Example in C:
int a, b, c, d, e;
for (a=0; a<100; a++)
{
b = a;
c = b;
d = c;
e = d;
}
If a processor only has the ability to keep two or three values or variables in registers it would need to move some values between memory and registers to be able to process variables d and e as well; this is a process that takes many CPU cycles. A processor that is capable of holding all values and variables in registers can loop through them without needing to move data between registers and memory for each iteration. This behavior can easily be compared with virtual memory, although any effects are contingent upon the compiler.
The main disadvantage of 64-bit architectures is that, relative to 32-bit architectures, the same data occupies more space in memory (due to longer pointers and possibly other types, and alignment padding). This increases the memory requirements of a given process and can have implications for efficient processor cache utilization. Maintaining a partial 32-bit model is one way to handle this, and is in general reasonably effective. For example, the z/OS operating system takes this approach, requiring program code to reside in 31-bit address spaces (the high order bit is not used in address calculation on the underlying hardware platform) while data objects can optionally reside in 64-bit regions.

As of June 2011, most proprietary x86 software is compiled into 32-bit code, with less being also compiled into 64-bit code (although the trend is rapidly equalizing[citation needed]), so most of that software does not take advantage of the larger 64-bit address space or wider 64-bit registers and data paths on x86-64 processors, or the additional general-purpose registers.[citation needed] However, users of most RISC platforms, and users of free or open source operating systems (where the source code is available for recompiling with a 64-bit compiler) have been able to use exclusive 64-bit computing environments for years. Not all such applications require a large address space or manipulate 64-bit data items, so these applications do not benefit from these features. The main advantage of 64-bit versions of such applications is the ability to access more registers in the x86-64 architecture."

Having offered that ..... All I really would like to see is 64 BB for my 64 bit system. Peter has said that it will come and I hope it does for all of us that prefer to work in that environment. It would simply be far more convenient to work in BB than to keep switching over to other software.

We have our 32 bit BB .... Great. Now let us have 64 bit BB as well, for those of us that want it.

Mal


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Ok Mal. Another highly detailed non-answer answer.

So you're saying Peter is full of crap, right? He says according to his testing there's no, repeat no advantage to converting Biab to 64 bit. Again, you pasted in a highly detailed description talking about how running a 32 bit app on a 64 bit system is memory restricted when Peter specifically said as far as Biab and JBridge is concerned, that's not an issue.

This whole thing you just posted is irrelevant unless you're saying Peter doesn't know what he's talking about. Forget all these posts of yours and simply say what's on your mind.

You don't believe Peter Gannon.

Bob


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Did I say all that that Bob?

I did not say 'Peter is full of crap'. Nor did I offer a 'non-answer answer'. Is that English even? Nor did I say that I don't believe Peter.

I know I said this.

All I really would like to see is 64 BB for my 64 bit system. Peter has said that it will come and I hope it does for all of us that prefer to work in that environment. It would simply be far more convenient to work in BB than to keep switching over to other software.

We have our 32 bit BB .... Great. Now let us have 64 bit BB as well, for those of us that want it.


Why resort to using a partnership with jBridge? jBridge has been around for a long time and it's great ....... It doesn't make Band In A Box a 64 Bit program. It makes Band In A Box a 32 bit program that utilises jBridge, to appease those of us that would prefer the choice of 64 bit, rather than 32 bit.

Maybe I should resort to an Americanism.

Get real man.


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Oh ..... and further back I suggested.

Why does any company compile 64 bit versions of their software?

That wasn't meant as a joke ..... Maybe you could provide an answer Bob.

The wiki quote is outdated and provides humour for those that like or appreciate it. Some things are facile, some things are complex.

Last edited by malevans; 12/13/14 04:55 PM.

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Edited to provide the correct spelling of facile.


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Originally Posted By: malevans
Oh ..... and further back I suggested.

Why does any company compile 64 bit versions of their software?

That wasn't meant as a joke ..... Maybe you could provide an answer Bob.

The wiki quote is outdated and provides humour for those that like or appreciate it. Some things are facile, some things are complex.


I'm a different Bob, but ..
From your Wiki quote -
"Not all such applications require a large address space or manipulate 64-bit data items, so these applications do not benefit from these features."

I think maybe that is what PG was saying; at this point in time BB would not benefit.


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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Ok Mal. Another highly detailed non-answer answer.

So you're saying Peter is full of crap, right?
...

This whole thing you just posted is irrelevant unless you're saying Peter doesn't know what he's talking about.
...
You don't believe Peter Gannon.

Bob

Bob, I think that your comments are subjective, not constructive, and possibly based on high emotions rather than fact.

This is an extremely well conducted forum, where members can offer constructive comments in a civil manner. I didn't read any statements by the other forum member that they suggested the somewhat derogatory statements you have now made.

I think there is disappointment that there was anticipation that a 64 bit version might be delivered this time around. The topic has been discussed and wished for endlessly.

PGM might have approached this more effectively if they made a statement mid term that the next release would have a lot of new features, but it would not yet be 64 bit, and the reasons why. Instead, there was loads of anticipation and hope, and then sudden disappointment. That disappointment was avoidable in my view.

Let's all sit back, calm down a bit eh? That will really be more objective, and we can all maintain the high standard the forum members continually deliver.

Regards

Trevor


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If the only guy who matters says there's no benefit from Biab being 64 bit and the memory issue is solved with JBridge, and you don't even have to do anything, you install it then it's integrated inside Biab, then what else is there?

Comments in this forum are not simply for the one guy I happen to be talking to. It's for noobies, potential customers and anybody else who's reading this. To me it's very unfair to keep harping on this issue when Peter has categorically said there's no problem.

If or when Mal actually uses all his 64 bit VST's with Biab and JBridge and reports specific issues or problems then we can discuss that but right now he's talking for the sake of talking, he isn't saying anything.

Is he saying he's having a problem with Biab? No. Is he saying he's tried using more than 4 gigs of ram with one of his VST's and and it didn't work? No. So what exactly is he saying? He just wants PGM to create a 64 bit version with all that complexity that Peter talked about with no solid reason other than he wants it. But to someone who doesn't understand this stuff it certainly looks like Biab is missing something important when it isn't.

This isn't personal to me, I just think it's an unfair slam against PGM.

Bob


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One theory on the 64 bit thing;

One benefit may be the ability to run multiple apps at the same time .. in RAM.
If they were 64 bit you could probably run RB and BB (or for that matter any two or more 32 bit apps) at the same time with very little issue concerning resources, due to additional RAM. While they run at 32 bit they share the first 4 gig RAM. At least that's my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So while BB may not see any improvement itself from 64 bit, a given system may (depending on the apps being used simultaneously).
Just one theory.

Peter said it would be coming .. I'm patient. It's not been an issue here yet, due to work flow.


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I believe you are correct, rharv. Actually I believe the programs would have at most 2.7 or so GB to share, after the overhead of Windows is subtracted from 4 GB.


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So, in reality, there's really no argument here other than someone wanting 64 bit. Ray


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My understanding is that each 32 bit app gets it's own separate space, and for practical purposes, it is 2GB of space. If necessary a 32 bit app can get more than that, using some tricks. Band-in-a-Box currently doesn't come close to needing the 2GB.

It is discussed further here...

http://www.brianmadden.com/blogs/brianmadden/archive/2004/02/19/the-4gb-windows-memory-limit-what-does-it-really-mean.aspx
"In the 32-bit Windows world, each application has its own “virtual” 4GB memory space. (This means that each application functions as if it has a flat 4GB of memory, and the system's memory manager keeps track of memory mapping, which applications are using which memory, page file management, and so on.)

This 4GB space is evenly divided into two parts, with 2GB dedicated for kernel usage, and 2GB left for application usage. Each application gets its own 2GB, but all applications have to share the same 2GB kernel space."


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Please no 64 bit before genuine 6/8 & 12/8 smile


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Originally Posted By: Beachboy
Please no 64 bit before genuine 6/8 & 12/8 smile


Well said.

And count-in's that count in at the same time signature as the first bar of the song...


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Originally Posted By: PeterGannon

My understanding is that each 32 bit app gets it's own separate space, and for practical purposes, it is 2GB of space. If necessary a 32 bit app can get more than that, using some tricks. Band-in-a-Box currently doesn't come close to needing the 2GB.

It is discussed further here...

http://www.brianmadden.com/blogs/brianmadden/archive/2004/02/19/the-4gb-windows-memory-limit-what-does-it-really-mean.aspx
"In the 32-bit Windows world, each application has its own “virtual” 4GB memory space. (This means that each application functions as if it has a flat 4GB of memory, and the system's memory manager keeps track of memory mapping, which applications are using which memory, page file management, and so on.)

This 4GB space is evenly divided into two parts, with 2GB dedicated for kernel usage, and 2GB left for application usage. Each application gets its own 2GB, but all applications have to share the same 2GB kernel space."



Peter are you absolutely certain about these facts? For a start I think that Windows used 1.3 gig approx., not 2. I am also very suspicious that 'each app gets its own 2 gig' is not exactly as it seems. I have always heard that 1.7 gig is the max with 32 bit architecture.

Another Reason to design in 64 bit: If there is going to be a future development of BIAB (beyond surface tweaks) , why do this in 32 bit? If, at some point in the future 64 bit coming (sometime, someway - like the song) better to develop in 64 bit sooner. Unless your thinking 64 bit is not the future, or we will never need it.

I would want to see a slick and powerful presence of "Son of BIAB" flexing its muscles in the big boys world, showing its impact as a VST/DXI. Your way ahead of the market in so many ways - check out Cubase 8's 'chord pads' trumpeted as a big feature - it's a toy in comparison with Band in a Box, but some of the visual ways it uses to display chord options are way ahead of you. There are so many potential uses in these pro sequencer pools that you are simply not reaching - good users, long term, dedicated, knowledgeable.


https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html check out the Chord Pads video


Its not infeasible that 32 bit may go the way of 16 bit.. we get these surprising leaps sometimes.

I always had trouble with my 32 bit sequencer, on ten or so different PC's as soon as I loaded orchestral stuff. Then, as soon as 64 bit came along, everything stopped stuttering and just works. Simple.

Z


Last edited by ZeroZero; 12/14/14 11:39 PM.

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