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#274857 - 12/16/14 05:15 AM [RealBand] VST volume level changes without known control events
VideoTrack Offline
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I am using Native Instruments Session Strings VST

I set the volume in the VST, but the moment I press play, something sends a signal to the VST to instruct it to reduce its volume. This happens on many songs and I can never find out why. A check of all control events shows nothing that would change the VST volume. Does anybody else have this issue and do they know why the volume changes whenever play is pressed, no matter where this happens on the timeline?

If Bypass is selected then the volume doesn't change when Play pressed, indicating that this is definitely a signal coming from Real Band.

Send Most recent controller is unchecked, but didn't make any difference...

I can adjust the level while playing and it continues to maintain the new level. But always as soon as "Play" is pressed, it immediately drops to the lower setting

It did it in 2014 and now in 2015 also

Thanks
Trevor


Attachments
2014-12-17_00-03-41.jpg

2014-12-17_00-06-34.jpg

2014-12-17_00-07-46.jpg

2014-12-17_00-23-01.jpg

2014-12-17_00-33-41.jpg


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#274861 - 12/16/14 06:10 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
MountainSide Offline
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Two thoughts come to mind. First, also click on "Disable special controllers". Second, take a look at the "Multi" level display in the Midi Event listing, I've sometimes found that CC commands on blank tracks can have an effect on this. You see this if you use the "Multi" function which shows all CC / SysEx and notes on all tracks.
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#274864 - 12/16/14 06:30 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
LynB Offline
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If you bypass the VSTi then, I would suggest that you are playing another Synth. When playing via Kontact, I would suggest that there is a synth volume control somewhere which is reducing the CC7 values. I use a number of different synths which contain master volume control features. Generally I set these to maximum to retain full volume control within RB.

I hope this is of some help.

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#274871 - 12/16/14 06:41 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: LynB]
VideoTrack Offline
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: LynB
If you bypass the VSTi then, I would suggest that you are playing another Synth. When playing via Kontact, I would suggest that there is a synth volume control somewhere which is reducing the CC7 values. I use a number of different synths which contain master volume control features. Generally I set these to maximum to retain full volume control within RB.

I hope this is of some help.



Thanks for your feedback
When I Bypass the VSTi I don't get any output, so I am definitely playing the correct Synth. There are also VU level meters on the Kontakt VSTi display, these levels change while playing when the slider changes. It's definitely Kontakt I'm hearing.

I thought I might have a different MIDI device sending on the same channel. If I change Kontakt to use say Ch 9 I get no output until I change Real Band to Ch 9 also, then I get output but the level changes immediately play is pressed.
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#274880 - 12/16/14 06:57 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: MountainSide]
VideoTrack Offline
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Originally Posted By: MountainSide
Two thoughts come to mind. First, also click on "Disable special controllers". Second, take a look at the "Multi" level display in the Midi Event listing, I've sometimes found that CC commands on blank tracks can have an effect on this. You see this if you use the "Multi" function which shows all CC / SysEx and notes on all tracks.


Thanks MS

Disable special Controllers and Unchecking Send Most recent patch didn't fix it


Re: "take a look at the "Multi" level display in the Midi Event listing,"
Where do I find that?

Thanks again
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#274898 - 12/16/14 08:06 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
seeker Offline
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Registered: 12/06/05
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Loc: 80 Mi North of Sacramento CA
Videotrack,

Before reading your thread this morning, I had updated
comments posted earlier regarding Z3TA2, Dim Pro, and Rapture.


CC 71-72-73-74 could be your culprit.

Culprits on 3 of my VST's

Good Luck!
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#274910 - 12/16/14 09:39 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1031
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Hey VT, the multi track viewer is in the Midi Event viewer. Located in the top row of RB, slightly off to the right, labeled like a blue page icon with an E on it. Go to the very first track listing to find "Multi". See if there are any SysEx listings in any track also look for other cc's. Common ones would be 7 and 11 for volume changes, 87 for nodes, 10 for pan, 91 for reverb, 93 for chorus as well as a few other less used.
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#274920 - 12/16/14 10:45 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
seeker Offline
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MountainSide,

Really excellent icing on the cake.
Currently working primarily with UserTrack. One selected and
active at a time.
BUT your suggestion could certainly enter the picture.
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#274981 - 12/16/14 02:35 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
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Loc: Pensacola, Florida
I've seen this problem on my computer also using Kontakt. Have not solved it, but there is definitely some interaction between master volume and track volume. I'll be monitoring this thread if someone figures it out, and I'll post if I figure something out.

And it's not just Session Strings that does this. I think the issue is with the Kontakt player, regardless of the instrument loaded.
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#274989 - 12/16/14 03:47 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: VideoTrack]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
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Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Some kind of omni setting in Kontakt itself possibly? Picking up the CC from any channel?
Or possibly the CC is on same channel but a different track in RB.(?)

Just a couple ideas.
However, disabling send last controller usually works.

I wonder if the Kontaxt VST has the initial setting buffered or in memory somehow .. it's weird that it happens as soon as you hit play.
I suppose the Kontakt could be reading the track volume and resetting itself.
(in that case it's a 'feature!)

<confused>
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#274993 - 12/16/14 03:55 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: MountainSide]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8052
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: MountainSide
Hey VT, the multi track viewer is in the Midi Event viewer. Located in the top row of RB, slightly off to the right, labeled like a blue page icon with an E on it. Go to the very first track listing to find "Multi". See if there are any SysEx listings in any track also look for other cc's. Common ones would be 7 and 11 for volume changes, 87 for nodes, 10 for pan, 91 for reverb, 93 for chorus as well as a few other less used.


Oh, OK. Yes now I know what you meant. In the Multi Track Viewer there are a few Control 123 events with a 2nd byte value of 0. This is an All Notes Off event, and even removing them didn't change the problem. The instant Play is pressed the slider on the Kontakt VSTi reduces, regardless of the song position pointer. I can even go to the very end of the song, press play and the slider drops.

Will keep trying.

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#275032 - 12/16/14 10:47 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events [Re: jford]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8052
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: jford
I've seen this problem on my computer also using Kontakt. Have not solved it, but there is definitely some interaction between master volume and track volume. I'll be monitoring this thread if someone figures it out, and I'll post if I figure something out.

And it's not just Session Strings that does this. I think the issue is with the Kontakt player, regardless of the instrument loaded.


Thanks John for the feedback. I'm starting to think it's related to Kontakt VST also. I've reported to PGM Support, together with sending a sample file to reproduces the problem. This will be very disappointing if it's in Kontakt. I've noticed the problem several times, and never been able to pin point. But it's always when I use the Kontakt VSTi inside BiaB or Real Band

Regards

Trevor

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#275149 - 12/17/14 12:06 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events - solved [Re: VideoTrack]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I Think I have found a way to resolve the problem

Regardless of the MIDI out check-box settings, Real Band and BiaB definitely send a CC 7 (and probably a CC10 - Pan) whenever play is pressed.

The Kontakt VST can have different attenuation settings applied when it receives the CC7. I found that the setting was in the range -infinity to -12dB, meaning the maximum volume level I could achieve was -12dB.

I changed this to -infinity to 0dB.

I could have also unchecked the "Accept standard controllers for Volume and Pan" checkbox but I would then have no program control over volume, something most of us would require.

Screen capture below shows the process.

Hope this helps someone else too.

Trev


Attachments
2014-12-18_06-45-34.jpg


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#275388 - 12/18/14 07:27 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events - solved [Re: VideoTrack]
jford Offline
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Cool, Trevor. I'll give this a try next time I fire it up.
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#275401 - 12/18/14 09:44 PM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events - solved [Re: VideoTrack]
jazzmammal Offline
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This is very interesting because I've seen similar behavior too. Just some thoughts, no solution yet.

1. Are you playing a downloaded midi file or is this a Biab generated song?

2. Is it only with Kontakt or have you tried playing the same song file using other synths?

3. Are you generating or regenerating some tracks using Biab styles?. When Biab generates a song it will put in CC7's for dynamics and presumably those will change every time a track is regenerated.

4. Is this only with midi tracks or does it happen with RT's or other audio tracks?

5. Does Session strings create string sections and is that what you're using, sections as opposed to single violin parts? Could it be possible that the different parts of a string section will have different volume settings that could be automatically varied by Kontakt for realism? This would be similar to how Biab will slightly vary each regeneration of a song.

I don't know these answers, just throwing stuff out there.

Bob
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#275452 - 12/19/14 06:03 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events - solved [Re: VideoTrack]
jford Offline
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Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Hi, Bob -

1. Are you playing a downloaded midi file or is this a Biab generated song?
I haven't tried with downloaded songs, but BIAB songs and my own recorded parts experience this.

2. Is it only with Kontakt or have you tried playing the same song file using other synths?
Don't seem to have this issue with other synths. I am thinking, though, that Trevor's solution is the solution. If your volume scale is limited to half the volume, it's just not going to work right.

3. Are you generating or regenerating some tracks using Biab styles?. When Biab generates a song it will put in CC7's for dynamics and presumably those will change every time a track is regenerated.

4. Is this only with midi tracks or does it happen with RT's or other audio tracks?
Kontakt is a MIDI soft synth, so audio or RT's won't play in this scenario.

5. Does Session strings create string sections and is that what you're using, sections as opposed to single violin parts? Could it be possible that the different parts of a string section will have different volume settings that could be automatically varied by Kontakt for realism? This would be similar to how Biab will slightly vary each regeneration of a song.
Session strings can do both. I don't think that's the issue, though.

Trevor can answer with his experience, as well.
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#275455 - 12/19/14 06:39 AM [RealBand] Re: VST volume level changes without known control events - solved [Re: jazzmammal]
VideoTrack Offline
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Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Hi Bob

Answers to my situation interspersed with your questions below:

Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
This is very interesting because I've seen similar behavior too. Just some thoughts, no solution yet.

1. Are you playing a downloaded midi file or is this a Biab generated song?

A: Neither. I am using my own MIDI tracks. It is a backing string cello arrangement that I recorded myself.

2. Is it only with Kontakt or have you tried playing the same song file using other synths?

A: I can play the track to any number of synths, including an external Ketron, but the volume problem was only with Konkakt.

3. Are you generating or regenerating some tracks using Biab styles?. When Biab generates a song it will put in CC7's for dynamics and presumably those will change every time a track is regenerated.

A: No, I'm not generating/regenerating. It is my own user-recorded track

4. Is this only with midi tracks or does it happen with RT's or other audio tracks?

A: Only with MIDI tracks, and only with Konkakt.

5. Does Session strings create string sections and is that what you're using, sections as opposed to single violin parts? Could it be possible that the different parts of a string section will have different volume settings that could be automatically varied by Kontakt for realism? This would be similar to how Biab will slightly vary each regeneration of a song.

A: I use Session String to play individual instruments rather than Ensembles. I generally create/record multiple string harmonies though - 3rd's, 10th's, 5th intervals etc, the same way as the string section in an orchestra would play (Violins, Violas, Cellos etc). Pre-arranged Strings Sections can often sound 'synthy'.
A sample of how I do string arrangements is in Autumn Pulse, a song I composed earlier this year.

I don't know these answers, just throwing stuff out there.

Bob


I believe that the problem is actually solved. It's directly related to the internal attenuation settings of the Konkakt player, and the images I posted previously show where it happens and how to resolve.

Thanks anyway Bob for your input.

Regards

Trevor
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