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#278918 - 01/08/15 08:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7577
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
I have no problem whatsoever thinking of myself as an entertainer...

until people start pointing out that clowns are entertainers wink

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#278975 - 01/09/15 06:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Notes Norton]
chulaivet1966 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 632
Loc: West coast
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
DJs are not musicians, A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument. There are bad musicians and good musicians. You don't have to play first violin in the Cleveland Orchestra to be a musician.


That's how I see it....pretty simple to me.
DJ's are entertainers mixing up what others have written for a specific venue/crowd.
A turntable does not qualify as a musical instrument from my perspective.
I see it as a music medium....a method to convey what musicians have actually recorded.

EDIT: Based on some opinions that means radio DJ's are musicians too?....I don't think so.

Could it be said they're in a sort of derivative genre?
I don't know....it's early and I need more coffee.

Lots of various opinions without a doubt.

Feliz Viernes to all....


Edited by chulaivet1966 (01/09/15 07:45 AM)
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#278988 - 01/09/15 07:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4448
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
OK, I've taken your advice and watched some very creative DJs, but IMO the turntable is not a musical instrument and they are not musicians. They are entertainers though.

Rappers who don't sing are not singers either.

We have to be careful with our language. New things need new terms, or the language loses it's meaning.

Example: Awesome used to be reserved for things that were truly awe inspiring. Now I hear people saying, "Your new shoelaces are awesome."

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
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#279049 - 01/09/15 11:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Notes Norton]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4393
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
"Your new shoelaces are awesome."


Not to mention cra-cra adorbs.....
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#279061 - 01/09/15 01:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Notes Norton]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8385
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
OK, I've taken your advice and watched some very creative DJs, but IMO the turntable is not a musical instrument and they are not musicians. They are entertainers though.

Rappers who don't sing are not singers either.

We have to be careful with our language. New things need new terms, or the language loses it's meaning.

Example: Awesome used to be reserved for things that were truly awe inspiring. Now I hear people saying, "Your new shoelaces are awesome."

Insights and incites by Notes


Extremely well articulated, Bob. 100%
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#279066 - 01/09/15 01:29 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6592
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
What really matters is what does the audience think. We've all said that for years, we play for the audience and if they want to hear Marguerittaville or the Chicken Dance I'll do it even though I hate it if that's what the gig calls for.

Well, all you have to do is listen to or watch some of the shows concerning modern music and they all refer to these people as musicians. It's definitely part of the language now, all these DJ's, EDM types, and other people doing these shows are referred to as musicians. To me that's the end of the story. For us as old timers discussing amongst ourselves oh no they're not, is nice but completely irrelevant.

That train has left the station, the people who count say they're musicians so they're musicians. Like you just said Notes, the language changes. We're going to be the Lone Stranger standing at the rim of the Grand Canyon screaming into the void all by ourselves "No they're not, dammit!!"

Bob
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#279077 - 01/09/15 02:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Kemmrich Offline
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Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1815
I just watched a couple of avicii live videos and I can not believe how wild the crowd goes. It really is just a big event to drive the crowd to ecstasy.

I like the song/video "Wake Me Up" and I am trying to be "hip" (ha, ha), but I just don't get the crowds going that nuts over recorded music being mastered/DJ'd by one person. Now if I was trying to score drugs and pick up women, I can tell that is the place to be!
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#279078 - 01/09/15 03:00 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4747
Loc: Florida
“they all refer to these people as musicians...”

"They" could just as well refer to these people as ducks. It still wouldn't make them ducks.

“...It's definitely part of the language now ...”

No, actually it is colloquial, not really part of the language.

“the people who count say they're musicians so they're musicians...”

Just who are 'the people who count'? Some Millennial cretins writing blogs from their mom's basement? grin

You're free to define it any way you choose, Bob. I just disagree.


Regards,

Bob
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#279098 - 01/09/15 05:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Danny C. Offline
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Registered: 03/18/04
Posts: 6494
Loc: South Louisiana
I where the "entertainer" badge with honor when ever it is used to describe me or my shows/sets.

Later,
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#279172 - 01/10/15 06:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4448
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
It's part of the language now? Not if you look in the dictionary.

And when you abuse the language like that, you hinder communication.

My previous example of "Awesome". If your new shoe laces are "awesome" what word will you use if you see something really awe inspiring?

If you do see something truly awesome and use that word, you are comparing the truly awesome to shoe laces.

Example: So if you see a guitarist play the entire 7th symphony from Shostakovitch on an acoustic guitar without missing or leaving out a note, and you say, "Man, that was awesome" you are saying that was just as good as a pair of shoe laces.

A DJ is a DJ, a musician is a musician. If we call the DJ a musician, pretty soon anyone who plays an mp3 file, or sticks a CD into a changer becomes a musician.

There is a difference between a DJ and a musician. An accomplished musician is someone who plays an instrument that can read sheet music. Stick the music for something as simple as "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" in front of the DJ and the most accomplished DJ in the world can not play it unless he buys a recording that someone else has played.

So if we call DJs musicians, how do we differentiate between the person who cannot play "On Top Of Old Smokey" or "Fur Elise" or "Symphony #9: From The New World" or "Louie Louie"?????????

No, calling DJ's musicians is as wrong as calling a musician a DJ. There is a difference and it abuses the language to call the DJ a musician.

I know language evolves, and I'm certainly not opposed to new words and the growth of language. What I am against is the kind of abuse that hinders communication.

Aspirin reduces muscle pain. So does ibuprofen. If you call them both aspirin, and someone has a fatal allergy to ibuprofen, how does that person choose the product that will save his/her life from the product that will get rid of his/her aching biceps?

No, a DJ is not a musician. A DJ is someone who plays recordings and may accompany them with sounds from his/her equipment.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Insights and incites by Notes
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#279271 - 01/10/15 04:33 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: jazzmammal]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2234
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
What really matters is what does the audience think. We've all said that for years, we play for the audience and if they want to hear Marguerittaville or the Chicken Dance I'll do it even though I hate it if that's what the gig calls for.

Well, all you have to do is listen to or watch some of the shows concerning modern music and they all refer to these people as musicians. It's definitely part of the language now, all these DJ's, EDM types, and other people doing these shows are referred to as musicians. To me that's the end of the story. For us as old timers discussing amongst ourselves oh no they're not, is nice but completely irrelevant.

That train has left the station, the people who count say they're musicians so they're musicians. Like you just said Notes, the language changes. We're going to be the Lone Stranger standing at the rim of the Grand Canyon screaming into the void all by ourselves "No they're not, dammit!!"

Bob

Agree 100% with you Bob! At the end of the day those DJs you described are getting good paying gigs and delighting their audiences. They could care less whether folks in a forum dedicated to computer-generated backing tracks think they are musicians or not! laugh I personally see a lot of similarities in people here using backing tracks to make "music" and a DJ using CDs to make "music"!

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#279630 - 01/12/15 11:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4448
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Just because they are making a good living competing with musicians doesn't make them musicians.

Calling a DJ a musician is like calling a collage artist a painter. They both create visual art, but use different tools and methods to produce different kinds of visual art.

But as you mentioned, they don't care what we call them.

Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (01/12/15 11:54 AM)
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#279632 - 01/12/15 12:02 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Notes Norton]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7577
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
Just because they are making a good living competing with musicians doesn't make them musicians.


I think that is a very clarifying observation Notes.

The general category is ENTERTAINMENT. Within that category various groups compete in different ways for market share. There are all kinds of entertainers (yes, even clowns)... but the type of entertainers that compete directly with musicians for the same gigs are DJs, karaoke operators, and in some cases standup comedians.

Depending on one's definition of a musician, open mic could fit just about anywhere, since the skill level is all over the place at open mics I've been to.

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#279651 - 01/12/15 12:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Robh Offline
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Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 4166
Loc: California
My freakin' shoelaces are awesome! lets get that straight now! Shoes are very comfortable too. hhmmm they might be awesome as well?!?!?
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#279765 - 01/13/15 06:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Robh]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4448
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: Robh
My freakin' shoelaces are awesome! lets get that straight now! Shoes are very comfortable too. hhmmm they might be awesome as well?!?!?


Well my shoelaces are awesomer (or is that more awesome)!?!?!
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#279831 - 01/13/15 02:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4393
Wait... what....

PAID???

I am supposed to get PAID?????

All these years.....
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#279932 - 01/14/15 08:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4448
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
The gig we've had for 7 years now just gave us a raise. We didn't ask for it, but we are building the business and the owners wanted to show their appreciation.

It's outdoors, on a deck, over a salt-water lagoon. We now ask people to bring lawn chairs because there aren't enough seats on the deck for everyone, and the overflow sits out on the 'beach' at the end of the deck.

The owners know that the way we treat the gig is to make all decisions as if we were the owners and were collecting the revenue. In other words, what's good for the business that hires us is good for us.

Example. A group of bicycle riders that ride from Cocoa to Key West passed us by about 5 years ago. They liked us so they make sure to schedule their trip so they could stop on our day for lunch (we do Tuesdays). They had a tail wind yesterday and got there early. So we started a half hour early.

We also skip breaks and if the crowd stays late, we play late. We recognize regular customers and play their requests without them having to ask. We tell stories on the mic, have running gags, and talk with the audience. We have a personal relationship with the regular audience members, know many by name, know things about their life and ask about them, and generally treat them as if they were friends and we were all at a cocktail party. It's how we compete with DJs and KJs.

Here's how the musicians should think about the bars and restaurants that hire them: What is good for the establishment is good for us, and we will do everything we can in the capacity of entertainers to make money for the club - that includes keeping customers happy so they want to stay a little longer and come back again.

Insights and incites by Notes
Insights and incites by Notes
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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#279934 - 01/14/15 08:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Joe V]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4393
You want to come to Cleveland and play an outdoor lunch gig?

It is 3 degrees as I type this..... grin
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I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#279983 - 01/14/15 01:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: Notes Norton]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6592
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
That is so cool Notes, good for you buddy. Around here I keep seeing stories like this one:

http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2015/01/la-studio-musicians-feeling-the-strain-of-runaway-recordings.html

You could consider this simply an "inside baseball" thing but for the fact it just shows there are that many more great players running around town looking for gigs and whatever bars and restaurants are left using live music don't have to pay squat.

The one thing in this article that really shocked me is the comment about Nashville songwriters. Wow, down 80%. Damn, I had no idea. This goes with articles I've seen about the decline in the quality of country music, how it's all the same drivel over and over and over. For that stuff they only need two writers, one to relieve the other in case one gets sick.

Bob
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#280015 - 01/14/15 03:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them. [Re: jazzmammal]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3358
Loc: WV, USA
Bob,

Thanks for posting that article, even though it is depressing as hell for working musicians to read.

It’s a shame that we now have more truly talented musicians than ever before, and no place for them to play. For those who wish to make a living playing or recording live tracks or performing for a live audience , the future is bleak.

For musicians who just want to play for fun and they have NO hopes or desires of making a living doing it, they should have much less trouble finding competent musicians to jam with. The wealth of instructional material available today is in large part responsible for that.

The lack of paying opportunities for these musicians is due to the dumbing down of music consumers and the advancement of computer software to mimic live musicians. Music consumers are more ignorant now than they’ve ever been.

That’s why “purists” like me recoil at the thought of calling DJ’s musicians! Doing that only adds to the ignorance of the general public, especially if it’s a real musician endorsing the use of the incorrect terminology.

Words mean something, … or at least they used to……………
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