PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Advice on buying mixing equipment

Hi. I have lots of things to say. I hope this is not much trouble.

First off, I am new here. Hi.

Second and very important, I am not a sp@mmer! I signed up in another music forum earlier today, posted my question and got banned on the spot with a very curt message that accused me of sp@mming. I read that forum's rules and I don't believe I violated any rule. If I'm violating any rule here, please tell me what the problem is! I have read them, and I think I'm ok.

Now let's talk about music.

I am a beginner in this whole business, now I
need some mixing equipment and I have rather specific immediate requirements, but those requirements are likely to change in the future so I thought I would ask the opinion of more experienced people.

I like to make music at home, it's a new hobby and now I want to record my material. I play the piano/keyboard on a MIDI controller, and I sing. The only instruments I have are the controller hooked up to a computer, two tablets and my voice. I want to be able to monitor and record all those input sources (voice is usually added later, overdubbing) at the same time.

Again: I have a computer and two tablets (other sources might be added later), all of them with regular 1/8" TRS output jacks, generally meant for headphones. I want to be able to mix, monitor and record all those input sources at the same time.

I might want to buy a proper microphone, which I don't have yet. I currently record my voice on a Tascam DR-05 recorder, which is very basic and also has a regular 1/8" TRS output jack and kind of works as a poor man's audio interface when connected to the computer's mic input (the pink jack). I use Audacity to mix sources, I have been testing Ardour, but it seems to me that Audacity is a lot better.

What I like about that recorder is that it is extremely sensitive and will pick up every tiny detail of my voice. What I DON'T like about that recorder is that it is extremely sensitive and will pick up just about any kind of extraneous noise, no matter how small, including a lot of "air" noise if you know what I mean. I have to be in a very, very silent room with it.

That is my current, very amateurish setup. I know it's bad and I seek advice on what to buy to improve my workflow. I currently have no way to mix and monitor multiple sources, and that is seriously dragging me down. I am currently considering buying one or more of these items, which you might disagree with (if you do, let me know!!!):

- - Tascam DP-008ex.
http://tascam.com/product/dp-008ex/

I suppose I can mix, monitor and record multiple sources with it, but I am not too sure yet.

Pros: it's small, compact, I can carry it around, including to the studio where I rehearse with a band (playing drums). I want to be able to record the rehearsal sessions, too. I've been reading way too many manuals over the last few days, all the info now is a mess in my head, but anyway, I believe this device also has a metronome, which would be quite useful.

Cons: it's not a mixing board. Which brings me to my next idea...

- - Behringer Xenyx mixing board
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category/Mixers.aspx?s=G100

Probably a cheap to mid-range one. I can't afford the high-end ones.

Pros: it's a full fledged mixing board that I suppose will meet my requirements, plus I can use it in future live performances. Not my own performances so much, rather those of my musician friends. I help them on those things quite frequenly and we're often faced with the venue's (usually a pub) crappy or puzzling mixing board. It would be nice to have my own mixing board.

Cons: it's not as portable as the Tascam DP-008ex, but the rehearsal studio has a mixing board already, but then I think I will need a recorder on top of the mixing board, because my DR-05 can't do multitrack. But wait, how many ouptputs does a mixing board have anyway? I've been very confused about multitracking.

The Tascam DP-008ex and a mid-range Behringer Xenyx board cost just about the same in my country. I believe the Behringer mixing board will be very useful, but I'm not so sure of that, and if I buy it, then I will also have to buy a recorder, so however I include that mixing board in my plans, the total cost of my gear will be double, which makes the decision all the more difficult. In that case, I believe I would buy a Tascam DR-40 or a Zoom H5 (both support 4 channels) to complement the mixing board. But then I believe I wouldn't be able to record the multiple inputs in separate tracks... Like I said, I'm confused.

- - Another idea I've had is to buy a Zoom R16:
http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/r16

Pros: it's reasonably portable though not as much as the recorders I have mentioned before. It has a rather impressive host of features (check the product page by yourself). It can be both the recorder and the mixing board in one single piece of kit.

Cons: it's very expensive in my country, twice as much as the Tascam DP-008ex and mixing board combined! Really steep. And I've been told by someone who tested it that the quality of the pre amps is quite disappointing. I don't want to dump a lot of money on it if it's not worth it.

These specific items are what I have in mind, but I am throwing them to the lions here. I am willing to consider alternatives depending on the advice I get. Please don't be afraid to go wild and recommend something completely different. Just bear in my mind that my budget is small.

I know there is a hail of questions in this one single post, but if you want to help, just tell me what you think and just as much as you feel like, and I'll add your ideas to the tons of information I've been reading lately. Beware: I'll read your replies and might ask for further clarification.

Thank you all in advance.

I just record horns so I don't have any relevant advice on your questions at this time, but I wanted to say Welcome to the forums.

very cool... and welcome to the forum here.

Here's how I do this thing called music.

I have a computer that I built running the software I use.
Connected to the computer is a dedicated external audio/midi interface. The midi instruments as well as the mic and guitar processor input to the interface. On the flip side, I have my monitoring speakers connected to the interface outputs so I can hear what I'm doing and complete the mixing.

I use a decent condenser mic. (Rode NT-2A) and yes, it will pick up all the sounds in the neighborhood.... lawn mowers, dogs, trucks, the train, ....I have learned to deal with it. I either wait until the lawn guy is done cutting the neighbor yards, or I can also do some punch in recording where the dog happened to bark at an inopportune time.

ALL my mixing and recording is "IN THE BOX".... in other words, there's no mixer in this studio. It's software based. Starting on the left is my midi keyboard with papers piled up on it. Next is the left side Mackie monitor and not shown is the lava lamp. Computer under the desk.... video monitor on the desk with keyboard and to the right of the monitor is the interface I use. In the cubby hole to the right is my headphone amp, my POD2 guitar processor and one of the Mackie speakers I use for monitoring. Moving further to the right is a stack of amps and a sub. Out of the scene to the right is another guitar amp. In the center on the mic stand is the Rode.



As far as software goes.... The main things are Band In A Box which I use to compose my songs.....And Real Band (both are PG products) which I use to render many of the tracks.

The interface: Yes, you really do need to get one of these..... choose a model that suits your needs.... number of inputs, number of outputs, phantom power, midi, and pre-amps on the audio inputs..... be sure it has pre-amps...and that it can run ASIO. I have a max of 2 live inputs from my interface...and I rarely use them both together. I have my POD2 plugged into both but I'm recording only the left input.



I also use Sonar as my DAW software simply because I know how it works and like how it works. Real Band from PG will also do much of what Sonar does. It's in Sonar that I do my mixing and also add the live instruments that I play as well as record the vocals.

Unless you absolutely need to have a physical mixer in front of you.... don't buy one. Everything is moving in the direction of being "IN THE BOX".... The only reason I could see having a mixer is if you're recording multiple musicians in a live session. For the solo musician in a studio working on song demo's, a set up similar to what I have described above is all you will ever need.

ALL of the music on my web-site music page was recorded in the studio you see in the pics above.

Hope this helps, and if you have further questions or comments, feel free to respond.

Love the picture of the home studio. A real Man-Cave vibe.

Lucm
Welcome to the forum. Herb's detailed advice represents an excellent tutorial on a great configuration.

And you will find that the Lava Lamp (disappointingly missing from Herb's setup) has cemented itself somehow as a Studio 'Must-Have' If you can't get a real one, apparently a picture of one does pretty much the same job.

Best
Trevor

Oh, such a warm reception! I think I'm going to like it here. Thank you all for the nice replies!

I have been researching some more and I have given up on the Tascam mixer/recorder because I don't think it will be good enough for my plans to take over the world. And I have given up on the Zoom R16 portastudio because I think it's too expensive.

I am now trying to decide whether buying a mixing board is going to be a good idea.

While I was reading Guitarhacker's thorough and helpful reply, two things he said stood out in my head:

1) don't buy a mixing board
2) you're *really* going to need an audio interface

Hmmm... I've been queasy about buying an audio interface because I think it's pricey for the little it does. And probably because I don't really understand its purpose. So now I have a couple of additional questions. The first one is stupid, but I'm not afraid to ask:

I have a handheld recorder on a tripod. I place it on the desk, connected to the computer's mic input (the pink jack). My headphones are connected to the computer's audio output (green jack). I launch Audacity or Ardour and press the Record button on the recorder and... I can monitor it! With Bionic Woman grade super hearing, no less. And when I press the Record button on Audacity, it records my environment (yours truly speaking or singing), on top of any other sounds I may have playing on the computer, and I can record both, so I can already mix two inputs with that cheap rigging. MacGyver would be proud.

How is an audio interface different or better than that?

I said it was a stupid question.

Besides, my biggest problem right now is merging inputs. Look at this diagram of a Behringer audio interface (it's a VERY popular brand where I live, that's why I keep bringing it up):



Audio out: I already have that, on headphones. And now it goes into the interface.

Speakers: I don't need that, I prefer headphones so I don't upset my neighbors. So the interface's output will have no use, I guess.

Headphones: I already have that, straight from the computer.

USB in: mmmkay... but why? I'm not getting any benefit from it. I still can't mix and monitor multiple inputs.

I should probably get an audio interface with more inputs then, but yikes, those are really expensive, aren't they. Really discouraging. I could buy another computer with that kind of money. Or a decent 61-key Akai MIDI controller. Or a mixing board, which can mix multiple inputs and perhaps do other things, like... be an audio interface!

I hope my next question is not so stupid... This is the mixing board that I find most attractive so far:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/Q1202USB.aspx

Would that solve my conundrum? Assuming I don't understand what an audio interface is good for and you know I don't but I promise I will, would that mixing-board-slash-audio-interface do the job? Wouldn't that also let me have plenty of (12 as advertised) simultaneous inputs, not to mention save me plenty of money to buy a lava lamp?

I'm still open to other ideas, please. I really appreciate it.

The Behringer mixer is an audio interface and will work just fine. There are things it does as an analog signal that other interfaces do digitally. It allows you to setup your recording session with effects and record with effects. You can also record without effects and apply those post recording. Some other recorders even in a similar price range offer higher recording bit rate. Some people state they think the mixers produce more floor noise. That has likely been corrected in newer models. I have 24 channel Behringer as well as two Presonus interfaces. The preamps are comparable and I've never noticed any noise advantage of either of Presonus units over the Behringer mixer. Using a mixer and recording the processed signal live is no different than using a digital preset to record over. Many songs are recorded using Presonus, Yamaha, Mackie and Behringer top end digital mixers.

If I were you, I wouldn't buy anything until I had done a lot of reading and had come to a basic understanding of how audio gear works.

Google is your friend.


Regards,

Bob

ABSOLUTELY!!! Read that again....




You need to understand what an audio interface does before you spend a dime on anything.

Essentially, the sound card in your computer is not your friend when it comes to home recording. The audio interface solves that issue. HOWEVER, not all audio interfaces are worthy of the name. Some are junk. Some will make your recording experience effortless..... you gotta know what you're buying.

I am not now, nor have I ever been an advocate of using any of the multi-function hybrid gizmo's that combine an interface with ANYTHING else. They tend to be proprietary in nature and end up being "one-trick-ponies" as the saying goes.

Your interface doesn't just do "a little" bit of something or other.....It is going to be the heart of your studio system. It does a great deal. It allows everything to work properly and in a timely manner, so while it may seem a bit costly, don't be afraid to spend the money to get something good, something that will last you many years and do the job you require of it. I've had my Saffire now through 2 computers and somewhere around 8+ years of recording service. I never regretted buying it. At the time, IIRC, it was around $300.

And yup... you DO NOT need a mixer if the interface has pre-amps in it. I said it before, but I'll reiterate it here..... I do not use a mixer and haven't had one in my studio for many years. I've used them in the past and when I got my interface, I was using one in the same capacity I always used a mixer..... but the sound was distorted. I pulled the Korg D-1600 mixer/recorder out of the signal path and my mic was crystal. I listed the D-1600 on ebay that same day and sold it. I have not looked back since.

Unless you want to have a mixer for looks, to impress your friends, and to see knobs and blinking lights.... nope... you don't need one.

And one last thing... the single most important piece of gear you can purchase for your home studio....



Spare no expense on this item because without it, mixes lose their luster and drive, guitars sound flat and weak, vocalists sing sharp..... and life just isn't quite the same.....

Herb, thank goodness that thing turned up! Songs have the audio quality of a six-transistor radio without it...

Good stuff here guys. I also am an advocate of a good quality audio interface. You all remember what Johnny said when he saw my mixer in my studio. "... what the hell is that doing there?"

Herb (may I call you Herb?), it's not just a matter of showing off to my friends and marveling at blinking lights. It's that I am trying to solve two problems with one tool - if possible. I have felt the need for a mixing board for a while, then I got involved in this home recording thing, and I have found a mixing board that is an audio interface. I thought that would be a good idea, but you really hate mixing boards, dontcha.

OK, the mixing board is on the back burner now. I am researching audio interfaces and I have a new question.

I found two that seemed interesting to me:

1) UMIX1008

http://www.icon-global.com/Audio+Interface_Recording_UMIX1008+Satellite.htm

http://www.streetwisesales.com/product/umix-1008-satellite-usb-audio-interface/

2) M-Audio Fast Track Ultra

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Fast-Track-Ultra-High-Speed/dp/B000Z8U0IY

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may08/articles/fasttrackultra.htm

Uh-oh. It seems that both rely on controlling software and/or proprietary drivers. How much are these things generally dependant on drivers? The reason I ask is that I use Linux, which is never supported. I thought it would be plug-and-play.

Well, I've researched and found the answer to my own question.

Yes, most audio interfaces require proprietary drivers and will NOT work with Linux. That sucks.

But I researched more, a lot more, and found that there are a few cards that work well with Linux, so not all is lost. I've been shopping, choosing and now I have a new temporary decision to entertain for some time. I still have to read more.

I am currently considering these options:

• http://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/scarlett-2i2/
  Works well with Linux, but has only two inputs and no MIDI.
  
  
• http://www.lexiconpro.com/en-US/products/omega
  This one costs the same, has eight inputs and MIDI. I think I have a winner!
  
  
• http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/hw/m-audio_fast_track_ultra
  This one has pretty much the same feature set as the second one, but I can only find it used and even used it costs 50 to 80% more.

I found others, but all of them are way too expensive, like the Saffire 40 or some 18-input monster that I definitely cannot afford. I think I'll buy the Omega. What do you think?

I completely gave up on the mixing board, and I'll tell you why for the benefit of any googlenaut who might end up here and read this thread in search of self education.

I found some pretty honest opinion on Amazon and found that the USB audio interface on the Behringer mixing boards can be quite disappointing. For example, the board has 8 or 12 inputs, but I'd only get two 16-bit channels on USB: left and right. And it can't be routed anywhere else on the board. Meh. That's lame.

Besides, I found quite a few reports of units that broke after just a few weeks of use or even units that were already dead on arrival. Well, actually, I met a guy in a bar two weeks ago who was singing and playing his guitar with a Behringer. He said it was brand new and he was very happy with it, except that the effects were not working, but he had to play that night so he would have it serviced after the weekend. I thought that maybe he just had bought a lemon, but after reading all those complaints, I decided I shouldn't bet my money on that brand.

The best of both worlds for you would be to consider the Tascam DP-32. They are rock solid, record 8 simultaneous inputs -XLR or 1/4", one DI, midi in/out, CD recorder, Mixer, 32 tracks + 8 inputs gives a 40 track final mixdown, virtual tracks and bouncing provide nearly an unlimited track count. The software is built in, has more than decent effects, dynamics and amp modules, etc. Plus USB capability for further transfer and processing. Excellent preamps. phantom power, portability, two aux sends/returns. Because of USB, it works seamlessly with BIAB/RB.

No driver or OS issues - I purchased the DP-24 when they were introduced (Mechanically and virtually the same as the DP-32 other than track count) and have never suffered a software crash. Nor did I have any issue with the 2488 unit before that which I had for years.

Setup - You can be recording as quickly as you can get it out of the box, plug it in, insert an SD card, mic and instrument. Very easy and intuitive to use right out of the box. You can be ready before the lead guitarist has tuned up and connected to his pedals.

Here's a link to another current thread in the Off Topic forum. Focusrite interfaces are real popular around here.

Interface Thread

"...Behringer mixing boards can be quite disappointing..."


Now that's funny. I don't care who you are!

Lucm says: "I am a beginner in this whole business, now I
need some mixing equipment and I have rather specific immediate requirements, but those requirements are likely to change in the future so I thought I would ask the opinion of more experienced people."; "I like to make music at home, it's a new hobby and now I want to record my material."; "I want to be able to mix, monitor and record all (my) input sources at the same time.";
But he also says;"I suppose I can mix, monitor and record multiple sources with (the Tascam DP-008) and its Pros: it's small, compact, I can carry it around, including to the studio where I rehearse with a band (playing drums). I want to be able to record the rehearsal sessions, too. The Tascam DP-32/24 series MTR's are excellent field/live venue recorders and meet all of his wishlist needs that a non-mixer computer audio interface does not.

Lucm is also facing possible limitations and issues with linux OS as well as MME/ASIO issues and latency. None of which are issues with the stand-alone Tascam.

I also just noticed at Sweetwater they are pre-ordering an updated DP-24 (DP-24SD) at a very competitive, reasonable alternative price to popular interfaces.

That DP-24SD is nice. Price is nice as well.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP24SD

The audio device Mullet

Those Tascam mini studios seem to be very good indeed, but they're a bit expensive where I live, and my focus has changed a lot since the beginning of this thread. Now I realize that Guitarhacker is absolutely right, I should get an audio interface and focus entirely on the 21st century, home recording approach.

I just can't get over the price tag on these things.

Last time I came here, I mentioned an interface called Omega. Ugh, awful reviews on Amazon! I am very afraid to buy it. Now I might go with the Alesis i2o. I resent the small number of inputs, but at least it's affordable in my area. Everything else is just too-much-money.