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#305121 - 08/02/15 05:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18499
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I always got a kick out of the name, although it made me think he was from TX ..
/// I thought 'Ziggy' played guitar?? ///
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#305123 - 08/02/15 05:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 301
Loc: Miami, Florida
Yes...Plain old Billy...really old...lol.. from Plano Texas...lol

Actually from Houston but there it was Blind Lemon Simmons...lol

Lived in Plano Texas for a few years down the street from Andy Timmons, a real guitar player.

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#305124 - 08/02/15 05:57 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: rharv]
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 301
Loc: Miami, Florida
Originally Posted By: rharv
I always got a kick out of the name, although it made me think he was from TX ..
/// I thought 'Ziggy' played guitar?? ///


Ziggy aka John Ziegler got to cool for Texas and moved to LA to teach guitar and play at the Baked Potato, spent way to much time hanging around Larry Carlton...lol

A little arcane Texas history...lol...guitar slingers, hum dingers, dead ringers...

https://youtu.be/aCPjLSKJ3DA

You guys are gona kill me soon...lol

Billy

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#305131 - 08/02/15 07:13 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1210
Loc: -
Depending on the style of music I suppose...IMHO I feel you could totally pull off a demo with BIAB. Yes you will have to tweak a few things (as pointed out) to give it a few signatures, but there is a lot that could be used very effectively.

What you can't use is the "generate and that's good enough" attitude for sure.

From what I typically hear, BIAB or a local band in the studio, what usually is missing is arrangement. It's not knowing how to develop all sorts of hooks...and repetition of them.

Last, and most important many times, is the vocals. If those aren't there, good luck. Yes there are exceptions, but if the goal is a song that people like, a voice they like helps in that wink

Just my 2 cents. I may be getting my 2 cents back soon...lol.

Great topic!
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#305142 - 08/02/15 08:23 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 301
Loc: Miami, Florida
BIAB is really good software and with enough skill and willingness to spend large amounts of time getting all that can be gotten from the program one could come up with a pretty good sounding demo.

But...only in certain styles, and I think there would always be the need to play something live.

You could pull a thirty thousand pound trailer with your pickup truck but why would you?

I really like BIAB and I am glad I have it but I don't think it is logical to ask the software to do something way out of it design parameters, even if it can be done. It is just to much work and there are much quicker ways of doing things.

I am not willing to spend three hundred hours getting something out of BIAB that I can buy for a hundred bucks for example. That's just not cost effective, for me a least.

Last word on this subject...There also is no sure way to get what you want from a first class pro studio. Everything has limits.

Billy

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#305163 - 08/03/15 06:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
olemon Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 665
Always a joy to watch pros at work.

I've talked with a local studio owner/producer/engineer/guitarist. Essentially, he does in his studio what we do with BiaB. Singer-songwriters come to him with their songs and he produces them. He has a sweet studio with high-end gear. Sometimes he'll bring in local musicians, a fiddle player for example, or singers depending on the situation. He sends the song to another studio where the drum tracks are recorded.

I approached him because I wanted to know his prices and if he would mix/master what I'm recording at home via BiaB/RB/Sonar. He listened to a few of my recordings online and in his opinion thought they were adequate.

Now, I know my recordings are not demos and they can always be better, okay. I go back and listen to them now and then...some of them are awful. His mixes are terrific, but I hear productions from people on this site that can compete. And instead of hundreds of dollars per song, it's a few hundred for their whole catalog!

Obviously, there is no substitute for professional musicians in a recording studio. My hope is that I can model that process 'in the box' by taking multiple instances of the generated audio and slicing and dicing until I get something in the ballpark.

One day I may spend the bucks to demo a song or two, but for now I'm quite content, elated actually, with what PG Music has enabled me to do with BiaB!
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#305166 - 08/03/15 06:39 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
JoanneCooper Online   content
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2074
Loc: South Africa
Jazzman. I disagree with you when you say it is not possible to produce a good demo using band in a box. You only have to listen to the quality of some of the songs in the user showcase. I have joined deuling mixes (by graham from the recording revolution) and every month they give you the raw tracks and then you see how your mix sounds compared to the "pros". I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the tracks that biab generates. It is all in how you do the arrangements and mixing. Those raw tracks are no great shakes but the end product (produced by the "pros") is awesome. Me....I am going to keep trying to learn everything I can about this amazing tool and hopefully improve my productions by continually producing music.

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#305169 - 08/03/15 06:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4477
Loc: Florida
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin



Regards,

Bob
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#305186 - 08/03/15 10:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1210
Loc: -
I have been using BIAB/RB extensively in the studio.

Number of pros who have commented on the tracks being generated or "canned"...0

Just saying, I think it has more to do with what you do with it.

Adding in your own playing (or some else's) goes a long way in making it more believable IF they are any good. If not, it actually hurts you. It screams "amature."



Edited by HearToLearn (08/03/15 11:02 AM)
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#305187 - 08/03/15 10:41 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: 90 dB]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6345
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin


That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob
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#305190 - 08/03/15 11:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
HearToLearn Offline
Expert

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1210
Loc: -
In case I, or anyone else, has maybe strayed too far from the original post...

I love seeing any of this kind of thing!

I also like that it shows people first hand what it is actually like in a studio. The reality and many of the stories I hear are far from each other. This looks accurate to me.

Thanks again for sharing the video!


Edited by HearToLearn (08/03/15 11:12 AM)
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There are 3 kinds of drummers. Those who can count, and those who can't.

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#305212 - 08/03/15 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: jazzmammal]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4477
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin


That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob




Actually, it was generated in Jammer Pro – vaguely similar to BIAB but only MIDI. I still think it's a valid point. A guy with 40 years of studio work, backing everybody in Nashville, was fooled by a MIDI/Soundfont track. RealTracks, on the other hand, are actual instruments. Mo much betta.

I've been pitching BIAB songs for several years. No one has ever said they thought they sounded canned.



Regards,

Bob
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https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

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#305222 - 08/03/15 03:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18499
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Well, that wasn't the Ziggy I was thinking of, but then again, you said you're from TX .. <grin>

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ziggy+played+guitar
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#305259 - 08/03/15 09:24 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7206
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
As a live sound engineer, the most interesting thing I saw in the video was the hand-made 'flapper dampers' on each of Paul's drums. Gonna have to give those a try. One more occasions that I can count, I've made gaffer tape or 'gasp' duct-tape dampers where I fold up a paper towel to about a .25"x2"x2" square and tape that onto the drum head near the rim to tame a ringing snare or rack tom. Works a treat. I think the flapping version in the video would do the same with less of an aggressive effect.

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#305736 - 08/08/15 12:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5250
My take on demos and the rest....

There are no demos anymore. Well, not demo quality. With home recording advances, and the music coming out of home studios being comparable if not better than some "pro" studios, demo quality is a thing of the past and now days, if you want to be seriously considered and have someone actually listen to the songs, you'd best be producing master quality stuff. Radio ready as it's called or broadcast quality material.

I've said this before, but for the new folks, I was at a songwriter's convention a few years ago in LA. In one of the sessions, they played a #1 song that anyone in country music would have instantly recognized. First they played the "demo" that was submitted and then the actual radio hit by the artist. Seriously.... it was nearly impossible to tell which was which. The demo could easily have been the one on the radio except it was an unknown "demo singer" from 16th Ave. That was simply to show us the quality of the competition and the quality of the demo's going in to the publisher's offices in Nashville. The saying.... Go big or go home.... comes to mind.

That means, good vocals by someone who can sing in key and on pitch and hopefully sounds somewhat like the artist you are pitching to. Instrument parts that don't sound midi, fake, or canned. Production chops that have interesting musical things going on. And a polished, professional sounding mix and finishing. Oh yeah, and the writing and composing better be good too. It all has to be good, no.... it has to be the best of the best.... Super!!! If any part of it is less than stellar.....No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig...it's still a pig.

Can it be done with BiaB? I think so. The musical parts anyway. But you can't usually take the stock tracks straight out of BB and throw it into a mix and call it done. Some work and skill needs to go into making it right. Adding some live tracks and a good singer will set it apart from a straight up BB production. Using tools to make the production pop and sound pro is essential.

I have a number of my straight up (meaning 100% BB tracks with production chops) BB project songs signed to a few of the bigger A list publishers. And a number of the hybrid tracks. So yeah, it's possible. I only had one publisher tell me that an early BB song I sent sounded "too stiff" to use. He suggested I used "live musicians" and resubmit the song.

Watching the pro's work is a thing of beauty. They make it seem so simple but it's not. However, when you learn to look for the things they see (and I heard a number of things in the video that many people miss because they simply don't know) , and then start applying those things to your music and production, there will be a difference for the better in your work.

Details count. It's the details that set the pros apart from the masses.

enjoyed that video.
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PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2018 - Xtra Styles PAK Quick Start Tutorial Video

Our latest video includes a Quick Start tutorial on the installation, locations, and use of the Band-in-a-Box® Xtra Styles PAKs in Version 2018 for Windows. Video: Xtra Styles PAK Quick Start Tutorial

We have put all of our Xtra Styles PAKs on SALE! Until December 31st, purchase any Xtra Styles PAK (1 - 4) for just $29 each! (reg. $49) www.pgmusic.com/xtrastyles.php?os=win

User Blog - How To Record a Cover Song Using Band-in-a-Box and RealBand

Joanne Cooper's final blog post for 2017, How to record a cover song using Band-in-a-Box and RealBand is a must-read!

Joanne summarizes the steps she took to produce her cover of "Old Lang Syne" - her final result was posted to the User Showcase Forum: Listen to Auld Lang Syne

https://www.joannecooper.co.za/blog/blog/how-to-record-a-cover-song-using-band-in-a-box-and-realband

Announcing…The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)

We are excited to announce the release of a new project: The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)

Songwriter Floyd Jane shows the songwriting process from inspiration to performance and publication: http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=IYMMZVvQdCw

The idea for this project came about when many members on this forum and elsewhere were asking questions about the song writing process. There are many aspects, and many parts of it necessary to create a song, get it arranged, performed, and then published on the internet. So we asked the great songwriter Floyd Jane, who is a regular member on this forum, if he could help. Floyd agreed and was even able to collaborate with other forum members, Janice and Bud. The result is this video we put together that you can see on YouTube or Facebook, called "The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)".

We hope this video helps other songwriters with their songwriting process, and also shows them tools that are available to them along the way. Also, we mention this User Showcase Forum, and hope to see many new aspiring or accomplished songwriters join this community :blush:

A big Thank You to Floyd for sharing your knowledge with the community and making this possible. And to Janice and Bud for your great collaboration!

Here is Floyd's original forum post for his song "A Little Bit Of Me": http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=433190

Check out Floyd / Janice & Bud’s music here:
http://floydjane.com/
https://www.janiceandbud.com/

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows - 49 Requests Fulfilled!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows boasts more than 50 new features... and a lot of the new features fill the requests posted by program users!

Some of these include:

Q. I am learning guitar. The RealTracks are very helpful in that I can hear great guitar players, and most of the tracks have tab and notation as well. But there is much more to guitar, could you include some videos of some of the RealTracks Artists? Because I would learn much more from seeing a guitarist than just hearing them.

A. We have a major new feature called "Video RealTracks." These work and sound like RealTracks, but you get to see a video of the Guitarist (or whatever instrument) playing as well. The amazing thing is that this works with any chord progression you type in. So, if you want to learn to play like the great guitarist Brent Mason, for example, you can type in chords to any progression you are interested in, and then hear and see a video of Brent soloing over your progression. Now you can learn much quicker, as it helps to see how a musician is performing, as well as to hear.

Q. I love the Audio Chord Wizard, as it figures out chords from mp3 and other audio files. But it is a separate program from Band-in-a-Box, and I can’t go back and forth to change things easily.

A. We've solved that, as BiaB 2018 has integrated the Audio Chord Wizard directly into Band-in-a-Box. Now load an audio file into BiaB, open the Audio Edit Window – Audio Chord Wizard mode, and let it automatically figure out the bar lines and chords for the song.

Q. I like to save songs as MP3 files, and can't do this with BiaB, except a very low quality one, 64kbps.

A. We've improved this, by adding support for Windows Media Foundation. This allows you to save MP3 in your choice of resolutions, up to very high 320mpbs. Better still, it works on current versions of Windows (Windows 7,8,10) and also on older versions too (Vista, XP).

We've answered 49 questions - review all of these answers on our forum post "49 of your Problems solved? List of 49 Requests fulfilled in Band-in-a-Box 2018" here.

All of the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows can be reviewed at http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.new.htm

RealBand® 2018 for Windows Build 3 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 users can update their version with the latest patch, Build 3. Download this patch here

Summary of Changes since 2018 Build 3:

Added: Section Numbers supported. All section letter menus now include numbers 1 through 9 in addition to letters A through Z.
Fixed: Section letters in Notation Window were not being resized if the notation was zoomed in/out
Fixed: RealBand might freeze when generating audio harmonies
Fixed: Loading in a BB song (MGU/SGU) or generating realtracks could freeze up the program.
Fixed: Chords in Notation/LeadSheet on 1st beat of a bar were being drawn too close to bar lines.
Fixed: Support for XP and Vista.

http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_3

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 505 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows users can update their version with the latest patch - Build 505.

This patch can be downloaded here.

Summary of changes for Build 505:

Added: You can now put Section Numbers in your song. Previously you could only use letters A-Z, but now you can use 1-9 as well.
Added:You can now filter styles in the StylePicker for styles that contain Video RealTracks.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box would crash with error "Procedure entry point MFTEnumEx could not be found in the Dynamic Link Library Mfplat.DLL" while starting up if using Windows Vista.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box would crash with error message "dwmapi.dll cannot be found" while starting up if using Windows XP.
Fixed: The Transcribe feature in the Audio Edit window was not always working.
Fixed: The Windows Audio Devices dialog might show garbage text for names of devices if not running Band-in-a-Box in English.
Fixed: There was no Quality selector in the Render to Audio File dialog if rendering MP3 on Windows 7 or earlier.
Fixed: There were visual artifacts in the leadsheet & notation windows when moving the cursor.
Fixed: Using the Transpose or stretching features in the Audio Edit window might cause an access violation if the audio track is mono.
Improved: Band-in-a-Box will start up faster.
Improved: Importing ABC Notation files has been improved.
Updated: Help file and manuals.
Updated: RealTracks Artist bio's.

http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#505

New! Video RealTracks for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows!

NEW with Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows... Video RealTracks Sets!

Video RealTracks allow you to see the RealTracks artist playing that track - you can use them just like any other RealTrack, and you can generate a video which will display the musician playing your song exactly as you hear it. You can also include a chord sheet or notation in the video.
TIP: If you load one of the video RealTracks bands, you will have video RealTracks on 5 tracks, and you can make a video of 1-5 musicians!

We've added Video RealTracks Set 1: Pop Ballad Band to our Free Bonus PAK included in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows packages during our December special.
Video RealTracks Set 2: Country TrainBeat Band is included in the 2018 49-PAK, along with 40 Bonus UNRELEASED RealTracks, 22 MIDI SuperTracks, 101 Instrumental Studies, and Artist Performance Set 8: Traditional Songs Sung by Béatrix Méthé.

SPECIAL OFFER: During our Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Holiday Special, purchase our "Video RealTracks Set 3-6 Special Bundle Offer" to complete your purchase with the remaining Video RealTracks Sets for the low price of just $49! http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.videorealtracks.htm

Learn more about the new Video RealTracks and see them in action: Video link - "Video RealTracks Sets 1-6 for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows"

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