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#305121 - 08/02/15 05:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
rharv Offline
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I always got a kick out of the name, although it made me think he was from TX ..
/// I thought 'Ziggy' played guitar?? ///
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#305123 - 08/02/15 05:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 301
Loc: Miami, Florida
Yes...Plain old Billy...really old...lol.. from Plano Texas...lol

Actually from Houston but there it was Blind Lemon Simmons...lol

Lived in Plano Texas for a few years down the street from Andy Timmons, a real guitar player.

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#305124 - 08/02/15 05:57 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: rharv]
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 301
Loc: Miami, Florida
Originally Posted By: rharv
I always got a kick out of the name, although it made me think he was from TX ..
/// I thought 'Ziggy' played guitar?? ///


Ziggy aka John Ziegler got to cool for Texas and moved to LA to teach guitar and play at the Baked Potato, spent way to much time hanging around Larry Carlton...lol

A little arcane Texas history...lol...guitar slingers, hum dingers, dead ringers...

https://youtu.be/aCPjLSKJ3DA

You guys are gona kill me soon...lol

Billy

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#305131 - 08/02/15 07:13 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1302
Loc: -
Depending on the style of music I suppose...IMHO I feel you could totally pull off a demo with BIAB. Yes you will have to tweak a few things (as pointed out) to give it a few signatures, but there is a lot that could be used very effectively.

What you can't use is the "generate and that's good enough" attitude for sure.

From what I typically hear, BIAB or a local band in the studio, what usually is missing is arrangement. It's not knowing how to develop all sorts of hooks...and repetition of them.

Last, and most important many times, is the vocals. If those aren't there, good luck. Yes there are exceptions, but if the goal is a song that people like, a voice they like helps in that wink

Just my 2 cents. I may be getting my 2 cents back soon...lol.

Great topic!
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#305142 - 08/02/15 08:23 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Planobilly Offline
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Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 301
Loc: Miami, Florida
BIAB is really good software and with enough skill and willingness to spend large amounts of time getting all that can be gotten from the program one could come up with a pretty good sounding demo.

But...only in certain styles, and I think there would always be the need to play something live.

You could pull a thirty thousand pound trailer with your pickup truck but why would you?

I really like BIAB and I am glad I have it but I don't think it is logical to ask the software to do something way out of it design parameters, even if it can be done. It is just to much work and there are much quicker ways of doing things.

I am not willing to spend three hundred hours getting something out of BIAB that I can buy for a hundred bucks for example. That's just not cost effective, for me a least.

Last word on this subject...There also is no sure way to get what you want from a first class pro studio. Everything has limits.

Billy

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#305163 - 08/03/15 06:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
olemon Offline
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Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 665
Always a joy to watch pros at work.

I've talked with a local studio owner/producer/engineer/guitarist. Essentially, he does in his studio what we do with BiaB. Singer-songwriters come to him with their songs and he produces them. He has a sweet studio with high-end gear. Sometimes he'll bring in local musicians, a fiddle player for example, or singers depending on the situation. He sends the song to another studio where the drum tracks are recorded.

I approached him because I wanted to know his prices and if he would mix/master what I'm recording at home via BiaB/RB/Sonar. He listened to a few of my recordings online and in his opinion thought they were adequate.

Now, I know my recordings are not demos and they can always be better, okay. I go back and listen to them now and then...some of them are awful. His mixes are terrific, but I hear productions from people on this site that can compete. And instead of hundreds of dollars per song, it's a few hundred for their whole catalog!

Obviously, there is no substitute for professional musicians in a recording studio. My hope is that I can model that process 'in the box' by taking multiple instances of the generated audio and slicing and dicing until I get something in the ballpark.

One day I may spend the bucks to demo a song or two, but for now I'm quite content, elated actually, with what PG Music has enabled me to do with BiaB!
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#305166 - 08/03/15 06:39 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
JoanneCooper Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
Posts: 2157
Loc: South Africa
Jazzman. I disagree with you when you say it is not possible to produce a good demo using band in a box. You only have to listen to the quality of some of the songs in the user showcase. I have joined deuling mixes (by graham from the recording revolution) and every month they give you the raw tracks and then you see how your mix sounds compared to the "pros". I can tell you that there is nothing wrong with the tracks that biab generates. It is all in how you do the arrangements and mixing. Those raw tracks are no great shakes but the end product (produced by the "pros") is awesome. Me....I am going to keep trying to learn everything I can about this amazing tool and hopefully improve my productions by continually producing music.

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#305169 - 08/03/15 06:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4538
Loc: Florida
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin



Regards,

Bob
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#305186 - 08/03/15 10:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1302
Loc: -
I have been using BIAB/RB extensively in the studio.

Number of pros who have commented on the tracks being generated or "canned"...0

Just saying, I think it has more to do with what you do with it.

Adding in your own playing (or some else's) goes a long way in making it more believable IF they are any good. If not, it actually hurts you. It screams "amature."



Edited by HearToLearn (08/03/15 11:02 AM)
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#305187 - 08/03/15 10:41 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: 90 dB]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6416
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin


That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob
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#305190 - 08/03/15 11:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1302
Loc: -
In case I, or anyone else, has maybe strayed too far from the original post...

I love seeing any of this kind of thing!

I also like that it shows people first hand what it is actually like in a studio. The reality and many of the stories I hear are far from each other. This looks accurate to me.

Thanks again for sharing the video!


Edited by HearToLearn (08/03/15 11:12 AM)
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#305212 - 08/03/15 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: jazzmammal]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4538
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
"Biab is a wonderful tool but if you're serious about presenting a demo to producers or publishers you need what's being shown in this video."



I once got offered a contract on a piano ballad from a publisher who had played piano for a virtual Who's Who in Nashville. He particularly liked the piano track on the demo. It was a Soundfont. grin


That's not what we're talking about, or at least I don't think so. Was this a Biab generated part or did you play it using the soundfont? We're talking about Biab generated tracks.

Bob




Actually, it was generated in Jammer Pro – vaguely similar to BIAB but only MIDI. I still think it's a valid point. A guy with 40 years of studio work, backing everybody in Nashville, was fooled by a MIDI/Soundfont track. RealTracks, on the other hand, are actual instruments. Mo much betta.

I've been pitching BIAB songs for several years. No one has ever said they thought they sounded canned.



Regards,

Bob
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https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

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#305222 - 08/03/15 03:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18673
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Well, that wasn't the Ziggy I was thinking of, but then again, you said you're from TX .. <grin>

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ziggy+played+guitar
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#305259 - 08/03/15 09:24 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7259
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
As a live sound engineer, the most interesting thing I saw in the video was the hand-made 'flapper dampers' on each of Paul's drums. Gonna have to give those a try. One more occasions that I can count, I've made gaffer tape or 'gasp' duct-tape dampers where I fold up a paper towel to about a .25"x2"x2" square and tape that onto the drum head near the rim to tame a ringing snare or rack tom. Works a treat. I think the flapping version in the video would do the same with less of an aggressive effect.

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#305736 - 08/08/15 12:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: The other side of making a demo...how the pros do it [Re: Planobilly]
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5425
My take on demos and the rest....

There are no demos anymore. Well, not demo quality. With home recording advances, and the music coming out of home studios being comparable if not better than some "pro" studios, demo quality is a thing of the past and now days, if you want to be seriously considered and have someone actually listen to the songs, you'd best be producing master quality stuff. Radio ready as it's called or broadcast quality material.

I've said this before, but for the new folks, I was at a songwriter's convention a few years ago in LA. In one of the sessions, they played a #1 song that anyone in country music would have instantly recognized. First they played the "demo" that was submitted and then the actual radio hit by the artist. Seriously.... it was nearly impossible to tell which was which. The demo could easily have been the one on the radio except it was an unknown "demo singer" from 16th Ave. That was simply to show us the quality of the competition and the quality of the demo's going in to the publisher's offices in Nashville. The saying.... Go big or go home.... comes to mind.

That means, good vocals by someone who can sing in key and on pitch and hopefully sounds somewhat like the artist you are pitching to. Instrument parts that don't sound midi, fake, or canned. Production chops that have interesting musical things going on. And a polished, professional sounding mix and finishing. Oh yeah, and the writing and composing better be good too. It all has to be good, no.... it has to be the best of the best.... Super!!! If any part of it is less than stellar.....No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig...it's still a pig.

Can it be done with BiaB? I think so. The musical parts anyway. But you can't usually take the stock tracks straight out of BB and throw it into a mix and call it done. Some work and skill needs to go into making it right. Adding some live tracks and a good singer will set it apart from a straight up BB production. Using tools to make the production pop and sound pro is essential.

I have a number of my straight up (meaning 100% BB tracks with production chops) BB project songs signed to a few of the bigger A list publishers. And a number of the hybrid tracks. So yeah, it's possible. I only had one publisher tell me that an early BB song I sent sounded "too stiff" to use. He suggested I used "live musicians" and resubmit the song.

Watching the pro's work is a thing of beauty. They make it seem so simple but it's not. However, when you learn to look for the things they see (and I heard a number of things in the video that many people miss because they simply don't know) , and then start applying those things to your music and production, there will be a difference for the better in your work.

Details count. It's the details that set the pros apart from the masses.

enjoyed that video.
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PG Music News
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Beginners Help - Muting the Melody Notation

Visit our Beginners Forum, and you'll notice our amazing Forum Community helping out new program users!

Like this recent post regarding Muting the Melody Notation: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458716 - Forum user Matt Finley did a great job of answering the new program user!

Our Beginners Forum really is a great resource for new program users!

Q: When I have entered chords and notation for a song, is it possible to mute the notation and just have the chords playing? This would be helpful for when I just want the chord backing track but want to read the notation.

A: There are several ways to do this. The easiest is probably to use the Mixer window and change the volume slider to zero for the Melody track. Or, hit the Mute icon on the Mixer for the Melody Track.

Another way, with more control rather than all or nothing, is to press F5 at the measure where you want to mute, and select mute or change the volume to zero. Later, press F5 and select Return to Normal, or change the volume back.

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#TechTipTuesday - Band-in-a-Box® Patch Updates

If you're ever experiencing an issue with your Band-in-a-Box program, make sure you have the most recent patch update for your version - this can be done at http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm.

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To find out which version of the program you have, visit Help | About Band-in-a-Box within the program. You will see the full version number listing as:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2018 (512)

The number in parentheses is the build number. As you can see, my Band-in-a-Box is up to date and will continue to stay that way because I've selected "Automatically check for updates every 7 days" within the Help | Check for Updates.... option (you can set the number of days to a different number). This window will also look to see if you're version is up to date, so you don't technically have to visit http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm if you didn't want to!

Once you've installed your patch update (make sure the program is closed when you're doing this), give it another try - if you are still experiencing the same issue you can report it by contacting us directly, or you can post your result to the Forum thread that also announces the patch update, like our recent Band-in-a-Box 2018 Build 512 Update (Feb 15) post.

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RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

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