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In the band I am in we pretty much did all our songs in the original key and if we couldn't we just didn't do that song. My fiance was a chorus teacher/vocal coach for 20 years and is very big on getting the key comfortable. She has a wonderful voice and sounds great in any key....I on the other hand have a marginal voice.... this works with a band but in a duo set up I will be more prominent. I have been working on backing tracks and have found I have had to change the key quite a bit to make it comfortable on some songs ie "Bad Moon Rising" originally in D and I moved it to A. I will admit it sounds much better than when I tried to screech to do it in D but how far can you go before you need to make stylistic changes. For me I will have to play the guitar part in a different position so I will need to play it differently. The backing tracks pretty much follow the original.....I just don't want it to sound like a lounge lizard act.
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That's where inversions come in handy. However, any time you change the key to a song, the feel of the song becomes different, often in subtle but noticeable ways to those with good ears. This is especially true when the song is originally played with open chords. As soon as you play a barre or inversion, it's immediately obvious to all but the most tone deaf people that "something's not quite right" with the song.
A game several of us musicians used to play (many years ago) was to listen to a song we were not familiar with and determine the key simply by listening. It's really not as hard as it sounds. I find myself playing the solitaire version of this game even now.
All that said, good musicians can play a song in any key and make it sound good. As you point out.... Bad Moon in D really relies on the open chords John Fogerty used in it for it's signature sound. Change it to A and the color of the chords are now totally different.
It's really a toss up on changing the keys vs keeping the original key and groove. But if the singer can't sing in the original key, you really don't have too many options other than changing the key or the singer.
Perhaps another, better option is to choose your songs carefully from the list of songs that you CAN sing comfortably. Avoid the ones that are difficult due to the original key being out of range and the ones you're not willing to re-work into a different key.
The upside to changing keys is that it affords the opportunity for you to work up a totally unique version of the song since the original sound won't be a part of the feel.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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In A I have the chord inversion worked out and as you said it will alter the sound compared to the original but I just don't have Fogerty's vocal range. What I have been using BIAB for is to get backing tracks that are reasonably close to the original without the signature parts which I will play live. Then I play with the key changes to find out what works best. With Bad Moon I transposed the bass upwards to A and the guitar downwards to A and this sounds pretty good to me. Singing wise it seems to hold up as well. I need to work out some of the signature parts to see if it will fly. If not then I may play with styles and come up with a new version. Thanks for the advice.
Last edited by pedwards2932; 11/12/15 05:45 AM.
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One of the interesting things I can do with my GR 55 guitar synth is I can use alternate tunings so I can play the chords as they were in the original but transposed to whatever key I want. Not sure how well it would work but I have used it before when I wanted to take a song down a half step or 2 and it would have been difficult to change the way I played the song.
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This may sound odd, but it depends on the audience.
There are the people who know you changed keys, no why, and think it was a good choice. There's really not that many of these in a typical crowd.
There are the people who know you changed keys, no why, and don't like it. This is usually an even smaller part of the crowd.
Then there is BY FAR the vast majority who don't realize you changed the key at all. I'm not kidding when I say it's probably over 90% of the people or more. They simply don't know.
Then there is the other factor. Alcohol. It's the game changer.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Then there is BY FAR the vast majority who don't realize you changed the key at all. I'm not kidding when I say it's probably over 90% of the people or more. They simply don't know. In a typical crowd I'd say it is more like 99%! If you wanna cover a song grab yer capo and sing it where it is comfortable. The impact of you not being John Fogerty is gonna be much greater than the impact of transposing the song! And that one guy in the audience who might notice? Who cares? 
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Luckily for me I am doing the duo thing for my own entertainment so as long as I don't jeopardize playing a place I feel like I have freedom to do basically what I want just need to learn to duck if they start throwing things. I get what you are saying though most people aren't going to be that tuned into what we're doing.
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Luckily for me I am doing the duo thing for my own entertainment so as long as I don't jeopardize playing a place I feel like I have freedom to do basically what I want just need to learn to duck if they start throwing things. I get what you are saying though most people aren't going to be that tuned into what we're doing. Let me know how that works out for ya. 
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I was just being flip....been playing in a band for 30 years doing danceable music and I see the duo as a way to try things I might not normally do......if a song falls on it's face I just won't do it any more. But the bottom line is I really would like to enjoy the music I'm doing.....that wasn't always happening in the band.
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Then there is BY FAR the vast majority who don't realize you changed the key at all. I'm not kidding when I say it's probably over 90% of the people or more. They simply don't know. In a typical crowd I'd say it is more like 99%! If you wanna cover a song grab yer capo and sing it where it is comfortable. The impact of you not being John Fogerty is gonna be much greater than the impact of transposing the song! And that one guy in the audience who might notice? Who cares? Ha! I struggled with that. I started at 99%. Brought it down to 95%. Then finally settled on the confusing " over 90% or more." Brought to you by the department of redundancy department. I feel as you do though!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Aside from the whole "if it's on the internet it must be true" thing,
9 out of 4 musicians are really bad at math.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Generally, the vocalist's most comfortable range and "sweet spot" will dictate the key and the song will be transposed to suit.
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I was just being flip....been playing in a band for 30 years doing danceable music and I see the duo as a way to try things I might not normally do......if a song falls on it's face I just won't do it any more. But the bottom line is I really would like to enjoy the music I'm doing.....that wasn't always happening in the band. In a duo, you have two choices: be background music that people talk over, or entertain. The former is easier, of course, but if you can sell the songs, nobody is going to care what key it's in. Regards, bob
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Here is a odd observation. Now this doesn't haven't to do with transposition, which isn't a bad thing in my book, but it does have to do with the musicians liberty. I've seen bands a number of times where the singer "made it their own." The ones that bug me are the ones that "lounge it out." Just a pet peeve of mine. Part of what bothered me was, in my opinion, their changes to make a great melody sound lame. Again, MY opinion. You know THAT lounge singer, right? The other part that bothered me, and you will like this, was the number of people that REALLY enjoyed the singer anyway! Some would even come up and say "wow! She/He has a GREAT voice!" What?!?! Yup! So what did it matter what I thought? I was BY FAR one of the few! That guy/girl was out performing to ADORING fans! GOOD FOR THEM!  Just for the record, I have also see singers who have done melodic variations that I was blown away by. So it's not that they have to sing it "like the record" for me. I hope that helps a little?
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Yes your comments help a lot and make sense. I like to stay somewhat true to the original. I recorded my voice on Bad Moon in A and I don't think it went too "loungy" to me. I have to work on the guitar parts to see how it will sound. I try to make intelligent decisions on songs and my fiance being a chorus/vocal teacher won't let me get away with anything. This is what I really like about BIAB is I can easily set up backing tracks and not have to invest a lot of time to see if a song will work.....Bad Moon is essentially a three chord song and the real challenge to me is singing it. As it sits right now I'm leaning towards not doing it but not totally ready to abandon ship.
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Whether a song goes "lounge lizard" or stays true to the original groove I think depends more on the style you choose and the way it's sung. More so than the key you choose to sing it in.
If you take Bad Moon, and apply a smooth jazz style.... you got instant lounge lizard grist.
You can modulate all over the place and still have that original groove if it's played with the attitude, groove, and feeling JF put into the original.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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To be a real Lounge Lizard, you have to play “Quando Quando Quando” 
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I think you are correct. My band has been doing Bob Segar tunes for years and I used to screech it out in the original key and blow my voice out. We moved them into a more reasonable key and no more blow outs and it sounds much better to me. I guess the key for me is to record it and evaluate. Then we'll see if anyone complains that I am doing it in the wrong key.
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I think you are correct. My band has been doing Bob Segar tunes for years and I used to screech it out in the original key and blow my voice out. We moved them into a more reasonable key and no more blow outs and it sounds much better to me. I guess the key for me is to record it and evaluate. Then we'll see if anyone complains that I am doing it in the wrong key. No one will likely notice the key. They will notice that you are screeching and can't sing it in the original key.....they won't know the part about the key, they just know you're butchering the vocal part and that equates to "you really suck" in their minds. Always sing a song in YOUR comfort range. Transpose if necessary. But either own the song or don't sing it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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FWIW, I collaborated with Seattle DJ Bob Rivers on "Bathroom On The Right", a CCR parody with Don Jr doing his fabulous John Fogarty impression.
I have Bob's permission to post it, if anyone is interested.
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As s Sax player playing any key the vocalist wants is a given. As a solo BIAB performer, singing 18 out of 20 songs in an hour set, you bet I am going to change my vocals to comfortable keys for my vocal range.
In hundreds of performances only one time has anyone commented about my altered keys and that was a fellow musician who sings some of the songs in HIS key
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Maybe it's comforting to know the original singer sang it in the key that was comfortable for them! Just a thought!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I think you are correct. My band has been doing Bob Segar tunes for years and I used to screech it out in the original key and blow my voice out. We moved them into a more reasonable key and no more blow outs and it sounds much better to me. I guess the key for me is to record it and evaluate. Then we'll see if anyone complains that I am doing it in the wrong key. No one will likely notice the key. They will notice that you are screeching and can't sing it in the original key.....they won't know the part about the key, they just know you're butchering the vocal part and that equates to "you really suck" in their minds. Always sing a song in YOUR comfort range. Transpose if necessary. But either own the song or don't sing it. bottom line: THIS^ in our worship band our WL transposes the key all the time to fit his range AND to fit what the congregation will be able to sing along with. if we're singing songs the congregation can't sing because they're too high, then why do them? that kind of applies for bar bands, too. there will be people singing along if they can reach the notes. if not - Herb's exactly right - they'll notice if YOU can't hit the notes with confidence and will not think anything except that "he can't sing."
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When I used to play with our worship group Eb seemed to be the key of choice......used to drive me crazy
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Pedward, Seems common with those blinking horn players. (Sorry, Matt Finley and Bob Norton) Ducking the flying brass.
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Pedward, Seems common with those blinking horn players. (Sorry, Matt Finley and Bob Norton) Ducking the flying brass. Don, you gotta have big brass you-know-whats picking on those two gentlemen
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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When I used to play with our worship group Eb seemed to be the key of choice......used to drive me crazy YEP! and Bb!
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When I used to play with our worship group Eb seemed to be the key of choice......used to drive me crazy I played in a wedding band with horns and the keys of choice were Eb, Bb and Ab. That was a great education for this young at the time guitarist.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I transpose everything more or less (The price of being a Baritone.) I'm now experimenting moving stuff around to see how it changes my voice. I record everything for analysis. I blame you lot...... lol
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When I used to play with our worship group Eb seemed to be the key of choice......used to drive me crazy Not a problem for some though. I reckon it is about the best key for Jazz tunes. There's something about Eb...
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For a guitarist it can be a pain.....I learned to live with it but E sure would have been easier.....
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Pedward, Seems common with those blinking horn players. (Sorry, Matt Finley and Bob Norton) Ducking the flying brass. Don, you gotta have big brass you-know-whats picking on those two gentlemen Mario, Yeah, I'm keeping my brass covered!
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I choose from about a dozen instruments in concerts and gigs, and I'm not counting five trumpets as five, just one. This afternoon's concert, I'm bringing four instruments and that's a record low. But piccolo trumpet counts for two, I guess, since it's such a beast.
Anyway, they are pitched in F, G, A, Bb, and C. You pick a key, I'm all over it with something.
And Bob is better than me.
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Us drummers hate it too! Especially drop tuning the cymbals. What a pain!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Pedward, Seems common with those blinking horn players. (Sorry, Matt Finley and Bob Norton) Ducking the flying brass. Don, you gotta have big brass you-know-whats picking on those two gentlemen Mario, Yeah, I'm keeping my brass covered! Good answer!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Us drummers hate it too! Especially drop tuning the cymbals. What a pain! ah, so it's always the drummers' fault that no one is in tune with each other, eh? 
Last edited by Beagle; 12/07/15 05:21 AM.
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Us drummers hate it too! Especially drop tuning the cymbals. What a pain! ah, so it's always the drummers' fault that no one is in tune with each other, eh? Well, I don't know about being in tune, but I've played in some bands where it was the drummers' fault that no one else was able to hear each another. 
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272 |
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Last edited by HearToLearn; 12/11/15 05:55 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
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Forums66
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