Am I correct in thinking that PGMusic has been altering the levels of the Realtracks in the last couple of updates? I'm sure I saw it mentioned somewhere.
Anyway, I noticed quite a difference in the levels of some of my Rock n' Roll backing tracks and some of my more Jazzy backing tracks which is disconcerting when using them live.
I had a copy of Wavepad, so I imported my wave files rendered from BIAB and where necessary amplified them or parts of them, then I normalized all of them and ran a smooth compression algorithm across them. I'm attaching links to an example (before and after) as I would value others (with better ears) opinions as to whether I have messed up these recordings by doing this. To me it sounds fine, just louder, but....
Yes, the second one is louder. I am having trouble understanding the question. Once you mentioned using Wavepad, I'm not sure if the question is about using that or Realtracks volumes.
If example 1 is not using Wavepad and example 2 is using Wavepad, I'd suspect Wavepad as being the difference.
I don't recall any significant changes in RT levels lately. Are they both using the same generated tracks? Seems like it, enough to eliminate RTs as the source for the difference.
It could be something as simple as the mixer output setting one file compared to the other.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Both really. I always use default volume levels in BIAB and I only use Realtracks. Some song styles play and render at a much lower level than others. This has been mentioned by other forum users previously.
I therefore took my rendered BIAB songs and put the quiet ones into Wavepad. I then amplified, normalized and compressed them in wave pad. In wavepad, I can visually see the wave files and get them to a similar size. I realise the wavepad version is a lot louder, but I'm just wondering if they still sound acceptable and I value the opinions of those on here. Do they sound over compressed? Is the normalisation ok? Does the amplification ruin them etc? I'm not a production expert and many on the site are. Does that make sense now?
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
Personally, I don't really pay attention or care what the levels of any of my tracks are unless they are particularly low or high, when I import them to my DAW. Of course, either extreme is not good.
I can adjust as needed in the DAW... either by lowering the other tracks, or using normalize on a low track. And... of course, using envelopes is my way to even things out.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Test them using the sound system being used for the 'end result'. You mentioned in your original post they were "disconcerting when played live".
I can see/hear a difference between the A/B version posted. Neither sounds bad to me, but there is a definite difference in power/loudness. You need to make all the songs being played live blend for the desired end result. Do this by listening to them on the 'live' system and making adjustments.
When I played live there was always a dress rehearsal. This meant the show was done from start to finish once and final adjustments were made. I suggest taking the time to play/audition things in the anticipated order and listen/adjust. Nothing will replace this for the end result.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Test them using the sound system being used for the 'end result'. You mentioned in your original post they were "disconcerting when played live".
While I don't disagree with this premise, one does have to be careful that they don't begin mixing to a specific sound system's quirks.
The better option, albeit slightly harder to do, because it requires a few things, is to mix similar to the pro's. Commercial projects are mixed so that they sound good on any system they are played on. By learning how to mix in this manner, the music you record and mix should be able to be played on any system from home stereo, to car, to concert PA, and sound good enough that only minor adjustments to some tone controls are needed for personal taste. You shouldn't find that you're having to cut the bass way back or boost the highs by a huge amount. If you find yourself having to do that, you need to go back to MIXING 101.
The tracks coming out of BB and RB are generally pretty good to start with. I don't really make any kind of major adjustments to them for my projects. In fact, many are straight out of the box with no plugs on them except my mastering plug in the master output bin. So, you have excellent starting tracks. That should make the mixing easier.
The critical component that many folks overlook or ignore is the room, the acoustics of said room and the monitor speaker setup you are using to finalize your mix. Folks who work with tiny speakers and no sub, tend to mix bass heavy since they have to turn up the bass to hear it. If they had proper gear, they would hear it and place it in the mix properly. Same deal with highs. If you work in a room with carpet, lots of furniture and big heavy drapes, you need to pay attention to the high end of the mix a bit more closely. This is one reason why you hear people giving the advice to beginners NOT to use your home stereo speakers and your headphones from your stereo to mix. Spend the money, just like you would spend more money to get a nice "real" Fender or Gibson guitar rather than an el-cheapo $139.99 knock-off if you're really into guitar playing. It plays better, it sounds better and is better. Yet people will turn around and buy speakers that are $99 a pair to monitor their studio creations and then wonder why they can't get a good mix to save their lives.
Not saying that that's the problem, but it bears looking into if the mixes you make sound "good in the studio" but not nearly as good out in the real world.
One other thing... Some folks do it, but try to avoid using MP3's at gigs. Use Waves.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/11/1602:35 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
To continue Herb's thoughts a bit further. I've taken a concept from another trade altogether, dog training.
When training, while having the end result in mind, I'm not concerned with the end result in the beginning. I train with 'training'. I minimize distractions in as neutral of an environment as possible. It's easier on the dog and helps the dog win more than lose. Once I've trained the dog to the level of understanding I'm looking for, I move to the next stage, proofing.
Let me explain how this concept also works good for me in mixing.
I primarily mix with headphones. It creates a neutral environment, free of most distractions. (It also allows me to mix in the midst of outside distractions)
It neutralizes any room idiosyncrasies and allows me to mix anytime, almost anywhere.
I can hear with great clarity and can discern small changes with greater accuracy.
Using headphones always provides me with the same 'room'. So that the more familiar I become mixing with headphones and adjust to the idiosyncrasies of my headphones, I learn to adjust to these idiosyncrasies during my mix.
I 'proof' my mix by listening to the mix on different speaker systems in varying environments in the same manner I proof my dog by training in many different situations and environments that allow the dog to adjust and improve his response to commands. If the dog has not learned the command and the proofing reveals he needs further training. We go back a step, return to the training area, reduce distractions and work on training.
If I proof my mix in varying environments and additional mixing is needed, I put my headphones on and address that issue.
My home studio cannot compete with a real studio environment in acoustics nor equipment. No need to pretend that it does so headphone mixing works well for me.
To continue Herb's thoughts a bit further. I've taken a concept from another trade altogether, dog training.
When training, while having the end result in mind, I'm not concerned with the end result in the beginning. I train with 'training'. I minimize distractions in as neutral of an environment as possible. It's easier on the dog and helps the dog win more than lose. Once I've trained the dog to the level of understanding I'm looking for, I move to the next stage, proofing.
I proof my dog by training in many different situations and environments that allow the dog to adjust and improve his response to commands. If the dog has not learned the command and the proofing reveals he needs further training. We go back a step, return to the training area, reduce distractions and work on training.
I needed to hear this Charlie. I'm having to go back to basics on a few things... moved a bit too fast, so back to the boxes. Build a solid foundation before we move on even if it means working basics for the next month or more.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I primarily mix with headphones. It creates a neutral environment, free of most distractions. (It also allows me to mix in the midst of outside distractions)
It neutralizes any room idiosyncrasies and allows me to mix anytime, almost anywhere.
I can hear with great clarity and can discern small changes with greater accuracy.
Using headphones always provides me with the same 'room'. So that the more familiar I become mixing with headphones and adjust to the idiosyncrasies of my headphones, I learn to adjust to these idiosyncrasies during my mix.
I 'proof' my mix by listening to the mix on different speaker systems in varying environments in the same manner I proof my dog by training in many different situations and environments that allow the dog to adjust and improve his response to commands. If the dog has not learned the command and the proofing reveals he needs further training. We go back a step, return to the training area, reduce distractions and work on training.
If I proof my mix in varying environments and additional mixing is needed, I put my headphones on and address that issue.
My home studio cannot compete with a real studio environment in acoustics nor equipment. No need to pretend that it does so headphone mixing works well for me.
I love reading these posts because there is so much to learn and share. Unlike Charlie, I don't have a good experience using my headphones to mix. The reason is that the headphones tend to give me a better sound, and masks what is actually going on in the track. So, I begin with the headphones on, and at a certain point, I take them off and use my monitors. I can't trust the headphones only. I then walk around the room; listening at different angles. I never, ever, use the headphones to make my master. Are there any other tricks out there?
Just lost everything I had written! Anyway, thanks for all the help everyone. It's very informative and I always get more useful tips than I probably deserve. Glad my newbie questions help others too. Yes, Trevor, it was the Croon1.sty and the horns were from the 9 part crooner style. The Piano solo was Realtrack 454.
As the worlds worst Dog Whisperer, I got some good mutt training tips as well! Photos attached
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487 BIAB 2021 (Build 818) Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi) VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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Anyway, thanks for all the help everyone. It's very informative and I always get more useful tips than I probably deserve. Glad my newbie questions help others too. Yes, Trevor, it was the Croon1.sty and the horns were from the 9 part crooner style. The Piano solo was Realtrack 454. 
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