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#340427 - 03/15/16 04:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Interesting trivia about 440Hz and the common telephone dial tone.

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#340432 - 03/15/16 05:17 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Notes Norton Offline
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O-Scopes have come a long way since I was in college wink

I wonder if someone with perfect pitch (absolute pitch) can hear the difference?

I had a band-mate with absolute pitch and he said some notes sounded darker or brighter to him.

Notes
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#340433 - 03/15/16 05:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
GHinCH Offline
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The dialtone is by no means exact. There is a bandwidth in which the dialtone should be.

Made curious by the discussion I checked other sources and finally found a good summary on Wikipedia. The English text seems to be an abbreviated version of the German text.

English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch
German: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammerton

In short the concert pitch travels all about from 409 to 461 Hz depending on instrument, time, and preference of conductor, instrumentalist, or singer.
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#340434 - 03/15/16 05:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Mike Head Offline
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Registered: 12/10/15
Posts: 270
Hi all
Just thought I would throw this in the pot before you all go off retuning your instruments..

Now I know why you can’t play along to commercial recordings of a big orchestra
Like the Philharmonic * *

Why are orchestras tuned differently?
In 1936 American Standards Association (and the International Organization for Standardization in 1955) accepted that A would be tuned at 440 Hz (or cycles per second). Yet despite the fact that a standard has been accepted, orchestras frequently deviate from this standard.
The San Francisco Symphony (reportedly) tunes to 441 or 442 Hz
The Boston Symphony Orchestra (reportedly) tunes to 444 Hz
The New York Philharmonic (reportedly) tunes to 443 Hz
and The Berlin Philharmonic (reportedly) tunes to 445 Hz
I know there's a tendency for some European countries to tune to 442 Hz and German orchestras are among others who tune to 445 Hz. But what makes an orchestra choose one of these numbers? Who makes the decision, the orchestra's leaders/committee or the conductor? What is the point of making this distinction? Why, after standardizing a tuning system, go to the trouble of changing it by so slight a degree?
(For the sake of this question, let's not take into account period instruments or ensembles which are famously tuned to anything from 415 Hz to 490 Hz)
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#340467 - 03/15/16 10:33 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Mike Head]
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
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Mike, to partially answer your questions our piano tuner and I had a similar conversation on his last visit. Our upright piano is tuned to 432Hz. I asked him why and he said older upright pianos, ours is over 100 years old, sound warmer at 432Hz. Also it puts less tension on the strings and wooden parts. He said spinets and in house baby grands and grands sound better, a little brighter, at 440Hz. Symphonic orchestras like to tune at 442-444Hz because it is quite a bit brighter than 440Hz. Concert solo grands are usually tuned to 445 Hz or higher. This is the brightest a piano can be but it also puts more wear and tear on the wooden parts and there are a lot of string breaks when tuned that high. He said he keeps a tuning book on his clients so he knows how the piano should be tuned.

Thus the lower the Hz tuning the warmer and less wear and tear on the piano while higher Hz tuning the brighter the sound with the most wear and tear on the piano.

Note he said that he tunes the concert pianos at the local colleges either monthly or bi-monthly depending on the college.
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#340572 - 03/16/16 05:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Notes Norton Offline
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My old Roland MT-32 synth comes tuned at 442Hz. If I want to use it with my other synths, I have to manually re-tune it to 440Hz.

Sometimes I just leave it at 442 and it really doesn't seem to make a difference.

I don't know if I can hear the difference, after all, it isn't even 1%.

We use equal temperament so our instruments a not really in tune with themselves anyway.

I do know that orchestras tune up to whatever the oboe is tuned to though.

So if the orchestra (and the oboe) is tuned to 440Hz and the piano playing the concerto is not (445Hz), is it going to cause a problem? Can anyone really hear the difference?

I also know that sometimes when making a backing track, I'll detune the highest horns in the brass section a but sharp to make them sound brighter (it's like stretch tuning a piano). But are they sounding brighter because of their native frequency, or because they are a tiny bit higher than the rest of the band?

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud here.

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#340587 - 03/16/16 07:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Matt Finley Offline
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Most people cannot hear a difference of less than 6 cents.
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#341718 - 03/25/16 01:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Trygve Larsen Offline
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I came across this article today and found it very interesting.... Maybe all we need is a bit "deeper" understunding of the whole subject?;

Recreating Balance


MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 2014
How to easily convert any music to 432hz and why
"If you want to understand the secrets of the universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration"
Nikola Tesla

What do these words mean ?
A vibration is a movement up and down :



A frequency is the number of movements up and down per second, called hertz.
Energy is the ability to move, it is what fuels the movement up and down.

Sound is created by this motion up and down, when our vocal strings vibrate or when the wings of an insect go up and down, it creates a sound. A guitar tuned to 432hz means that when one of its string is plucked it will go up and down 432 times per second. Since frequencies spread in their environment, the body of the guitar will start to vibrate along with this frequency, and so will the surroundings of the guitar, including people.
This is a powerful force, see how a voice can shatter glass.
Many studies have proven the effects of music on our physical, mental and emotional health.

There are several aspects in music : the emotional and mental energy in it, the intention behind it, and the physics of it : its frequency, geometry, etc.
Positive intentions, emotions and thoughts in music can provide healing regardless of its physics, but proper physics can take the healing to a whole other level.

The 432hz tuning means that the middle A note will have that frequency. Then all the other notes will tune accordingly on different frequencies along the scale. So 432hz is just a reference point.
If you watch any orchestra or band, they will always tune together to the exact same reference point frequency. If even just one instrument is out of tune with the others, the whole thing will sound off.

Jamie Burtuff explains that European music before the early 50s, ancient Egyptian music, traditionally made Tibetan bowls and digeridoos, sitar Indian music, and many others, have been tuned to 432hz. I have also measured sounds of Wolves, Whales and Dolphins singing and some Amazonian shamans and they were all using these frequencies.

Around the second world war, the cabal studied which tuning would be the most harmful for humans, and as a result imposed the 440hz tuning via Goebbels (who thought it was the best for war marches), and JC Deagan. Musicians at the time protested against it but it was pushed through anyway. Almost all music has been tuned to that since then.

Since the new age movement, there has also been another tuning circulating called solfeggio, based on a middle C note of 528hz. This corresponds to a middle A of 444hz.
Although the numbers used for these frequencies do correspond to geometrical patterns found in nature, it appears they do not correspond to frequencies : as you can see in this video at the 6min6 mark, these frequencies are not harmonious between themselves, which means that it is not possible to play any music with them. So when you listen to music made with these frequencies, there can only be one note that will be part of this solfeggio frequency scale, and the rest of the music will not be part of it, which raises questions about its validity.

John Stuart Reid has shown the shape created by 432hz with cymatics (the science of making sound visible by vibrating water or other types of particles) :



It encompasses the shape in the center of a tri Vescia Pisces :



This is the basis of so much universal geometry, if not all. This is where the flower of life pattern is born, from which all platonic solids can be derived among other things :



This means that, as the cymatics show, 432hz will create this geometry in physical matter, which include our own bodies.

A very professional 28 pages scientific study has been published showing clear reducing of inflammation, stress levels and other symptoms by listening to 432hz music in Pythagorean tuning only three times, for 35min each time, in a period of 7 days. You can read the whole study here :

http://fr.scribd.com/doc/202351974/Spiritual-Results-

(Note : The Pythagorean tuning (also called just intonation), is a separate, independant and complementary aspect than the 432hz aspect. The 432hz is the reference point, and the Pythagorean aspect is the space between the different notes in the scale. Click here to learn about it)

Scott Onstott in Secrets in Plain Sight has shown how our measurement systems such as miles and meters are not random but correspond to natural distances found in nature. Therefore they resonate with sacred geometry.
In music, the same note on higher and lower octaves is found by dividing or multiplying the frequency by two.
Scott Onstott also showed that the number 432 and its octaves are found frequently in measurements of space and time throughout our galaxy, for example in the dimensions of our Sun (432 000 x 2 = 864 000 miles diameter) and Moon (4320 ÷ 2 = 2160 miles diameter), and in the 25920 years of the galactic cyle/procession of the equinox : 432 x 60, 60 being at the basis of how we measure time. This seems to me to be the basis for the music of the sphere. Additionally the speed of light is 432 x 432 miles per second, there is 43200 x 2 seconds in a day, and our solar system is travelling inside the galaxy 43200 miles per hour. (More info about this here)

Everything in creation, all matter is in a state of vibration. 432hz is in tune with the frequency of nature throughout the cosmos. If humans are out of tune with it, it creates discomfort. Listening to music in 432hz helps us realign with our environment and the natural geometric patterns of the universe, promoting well-being physically, mentally and emotionally.

Here's a song from my 432hz and 'music of the sphere' sound healing CD :



Click here to learn and hear more from it

Now, here is how to convert any music from 440hz to 432hz



(Note : This protocol is to convert music from 440hz to 432hz. If the music was originally made in 432hz then using this protocol will make it out of tune. Almost all music nowadays is in 440hz, except a lot (but not all) of Indian traditional music which is still made in 432hz, as well as some traditional Tibetan or didgeridoo music, and a few other isolated cases.)

Download the free software Audacity here
Then download this little plug-in here in order to be able to save files in mp3

First we need to create a protocol, and then you will be able to apply it quickly and easily to any file or group of files.
Open Audacity, click on the 'File' tab on the top left corner, then 'Edit chains', and then 'Add' on the bottom left corner.
Enter the name you want for the protocol, for example 432, then click on insert. Then double click on 'TimeScale', and then edit parameters.
Then type -1.818 in both (%) boxes and click Ok :



Then click ok again, then click on insert, and double click on 'Exportmp3', and click Ok.

That's it ! Click ok to leave this box, and now anytime you want to convert a file, click on 'File', 'Apply chain', select the 432 protocol, and click on 'Apply to files', select the music files you want to convert and it will be done automatically. You can select as many files as you want and the converted files will be placed in a new folder named 'cleaned', inside the folder where the original file was.

And here's a video tutorial if you need help

*****

You can also use certain music players for computer and phones which will play your music in 432hz automatically without needing to convert the files. However the files will not be converted so if you play them anywhere outside of these players, for example if you upload them on a website or on another device or physical CD, they will be in 440 again. They are still good alternatives as they will automatically play any 440hz tune in 432hz without requiring any work from you.


Edited by Trygve Larsen (03/25/16 01:51 AM)
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#341724 - 03/25/16 02:11 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
GHinCH Offline
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Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
I'm missing the links in your post (click here), except one.

There are many reasons why we use the tuning that we have now. And I don't believe music will sound the same when one plays it based on the 432 Hz reference point versus the 440 Hz reference point.

If that 432 Hz frequency is that natural -- I don't have neither knowledge nor means to prove it -- I suspect my guitar should sound different when recorded while played tuned to the 432 Hz based scale compared to a recording that was played tuned to the 440 Hz based scale and then the recording would be electronically tuned to the 432 Hz based scale.
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#341728 - 03/25/16 02:38 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 12596
Loc: Australia
Hi Trygve,

An interesting article.

Here's an article on concert pitch that you might also find interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch

In relation to the above figures in your post...

  • Light travels as 186,000 mi/sec and 432 squared is 186,624. The values are of the same order but disagreeing by 624.
  • The sun's mean diameter is 864,938 miles.
  • The moon's diameter is 2,195 miles

It seems like the article's author has bent the figures a little to suit his argument. He is correct with his statement about a 24 hour day.

Here in Australia, we work in kilometres and that means all values quoted will be quite different.

Lastly, I wonder which mile the writer is using as his reference? There are many possibilities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile

Regards,
Noel
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#341750 - 03/25/16 06:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4260
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Since we use equal temperament, I wonder if it even matters?

If middle A is tuned to 432Hz, then most of the other notes are still off.

Just thinking out loud here.
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#341751 - 03/25/16 06:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Noel96]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 7735
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
A vibration is a movement up and down

Up and down? !!! Heck, whatever does that mean?

Quote:
It seems like the article's author has bent the figures a little to suit his argument.

Good story tellers can put words together to create any amount of credibly sounding scientific argument, and challenging conventions with separate unsubstantiated beliefs.

Thanks for pulling things back into line a bit Noel. I'm not re-tuning my piano for anyone.

(PS: And certainly no disrespect to you Leo for bringing this to the discussion, only questioning the original 432 author.)
Trev




Edited by VideoTrack (03/25/16 06:16 AM)
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#341793 - 03/25/16 09:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: VideoTrack]
GHinCH Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Quote:
A vibration is a movement up and down

Up and down? !!! Heck, whatever does that mean?

It means that a vibration is a movement that doesn't know where it wants to go.
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#341828 - 03/25/16 01:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: Trygve Larsen]
jazzsax Offline
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Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 353
Loc: San Jose,CA
I guess that would make my hi pitch 1889 Bari Sax even more obsolete.

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#341927 - 03/26/16 12:18 AM [Off-Topic] Re: 440 hz Music – Conspiracy To Detune Us From Natural 432 Hz ?! [Re: GHinCH]
Trygve Larsen Offline
Expert

Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 867
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: GHinCH
I'm missing the links in your post (click here), except one.

There are many reasons why we use the tuning that we have now. And I don't believe music will sound the same when one plays it based on the 432 Hz reference point versus the 440 Hz reference point.

If that 432 Hz frequency is that natural -- I don't have neither knowledge nor means to prove it -- I suspect my guitar should sound different when recorded while played tuned to the 432 Hz based scale compared to a recording that was played tuned to the 440 Hz based scale and then the recording would be electronically tuned to the 432 Hz based scale.

Yeah, sorry for that, forgot to put in the link at the end.. But here it is... http://recreatingbalance1.blogspot.com/2014/09/how-to-easily-convert-any-music-to.html
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