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#342112 - 03/27/16 08:41 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
ROG Offline
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Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 2509
Loc: York, England
Hi everyone.

I'm surprised that this thread has gone so far without anyone mentioning compressors.

I remember back in the 70s, mixing with the old guy who was my mentor and who taught me most of what I know about recording and who had mixed a fair few chart successes. The first thing he would do is to patch compressors into all the rhythm tracks. If you have too much dynamic range in your rhythm instruments then the tracks can combine in all sorts of horrible and unexpected ways, which will interfere with the vocal in exactly the way that CocoTex described. This technique gave rise to Malcolm's famous phrase - "When I put something in the mix, I want it to stay there". And generally it did! With the rhythm tracks tamed, mixing the backing track was a piece of cake and it left room for the vox and lead instruments to use dynamics to good effect without getting lost. Some years later, I was talking to one of the guys from the cutting room (mastering), who said that they rarely touched Malcolm's mixes - they just cut the copper master straight from the tape.

Don't get to thinking that the Realtracks don't need compressing - they are generally recorded without too much compression, in order to leave the choice up to the mixing engineer.

Finally, I'm not saying that automated envelopes aren't useful - they obviously are, but they aren't the full story.

Just trying to help with a few thoughts....

ROG.

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#342118 - 03/27/16 09:04 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: Carolyne]
Carolyne Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 213
Loc: California
Thanks to all for the clarification. I just want to make sure I'm mixing my songs in a manner that gives me the best sound advantage. It's sort of like poaching eggs. You think you know what you're doing, until you see someone else do it. I take the information on these Forums seriously, and always listen with an expectation to learn something. Ha! It's a principle I wish I had adopted earlier in life. Thanks again for sharing.
-Carolyne

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#342134 - 03/27/16 11:42 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
CocoTex Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Well...this outpouring has been amazing and helpful and a great sanity check.

As suggested, I did strip tracks off, starting with 2, and removed all bar and chord setting (many times, I'm always finding something here and there, and often the ending no longer plays correctly if I change much or certain things. I don't mean anything near the ending, but eventually I get it back on track).

Starting with 2 tracks and building is excellent, nod to DGA and others.

I've not even learned about compression yet, way over my head as it is. I did get 1 song the way I like it. I don't have formal music training, can't read it, so no note tweaks, just worked with what I had. I ran it thru LandR a couple of different ways, and the result was what I was looking for (just for Reverbnation, and perhaps later I'll use it to explain/show the studio/producer what I want in the song).

Here's something I could use help with, and I was able to accomplish this previously, but must have tweaked/set something up wrong. Let's say, for simplicity's sake.

I record 3 tracks on BIAB, guitar, drum, bass, get them where I like them, render to wav files, then I load the wav files on a separate digital recorder I use in my home studio, Zoom R16, which has worked great for me.

The 3 tracks play great on the Zoom, the settings from BIAB are generally preserved, the volume can be a little iffy for each, but the tempo is right on for them.

Then, using the Zoom, I'll record a vocal track (separate track, mono, 24 bit).

Zoom saves all files as wavs. I'll transfer the one vocal wav track back to BIAB, (File, Import audio wav etc files). I only do this so I can see if I'd like different/additional instrument tracks. This worked fine previously, but now the audio file loaded into BIAB is out of sync and the tempo is off.

To test, I loaded all 4 wav files (all 3 instrument wavs from BIAB, and the 1 vocal wav from the Zoom unit) directly into a couple DAWs and everything is in sync there.

Is there a fix for it in BIAB? Or can I correct something I've set improperly?

(I have rebooted and fully shut down all devices several times to see. Just in general, I do have to do this often with BIAB anyway for some reason, and the error at the time is missing once rebooted).

Also, while I'm begging for info, when I make a chord change, it is not recognized until I regenerate the entire song. Like if I just regenerate the piano, it will recognize the new chord, but the other non-regenerated instruments will not. I'm sure there's a better way to do this, hate regenerating when it's not required.)

Thanks everyone.

Andy
_________________________
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller

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#342139 - 03/27/16 11:59 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: ROG]
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8056
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: ROG
I'm surprised that this thread has gone so far without anyone mentioning compressors.


Wow, yes, excellent point. They really can be a very important go-to tool. A must for getting some dynamic balance into the mix.
_________________________

BIAB, RB 2018(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Izotope Prod. Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, KorgX3R, RodeNGT2, AM802mixer, NS40M Studio Monitors, Pioneer Active Mons, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

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#342182 - 03/27/16 07:27 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
dga Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 671
Loc: Raleigh NC
Andy why aren't you using RealBand to open up your BIAB files?
_________________________
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"

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#342185 - 03/27/16 07:44 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
dga Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 671
Loc: Raleigh NC
If you don't want an instrument to regenerate with the others Freeze the track/instruments. However, if you make a Chord change with frozen track/instrument the chord change will not effect that track. You can change a C7 to a C9 freeze the piano, Drums and Bass leave the guitar unfrozen that will sound OK. But if you change a C to an F that will not sound at all correct. Look up substitution chords and you can see what chord changes you may try making for only one instrument while others are frozen.
I freeze the drum track when I like the sound of the drums.

I also freeze my guitar/piano track when I change a C to a C/G(or Cmaj with a G Bass that is what this notation represents) C/B, C/A and I only want the BASS to pick up the change. I'll make a series of slash chords after freezing the Guitar track (or piano) and then regenerate the Bass. The bass pattern follows the bass notes indicated in the cord, most of the time. The Guitar and/or the Piano stay on the basic chord.
_________________________
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"

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#342186 - 03/27/16 07:52 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
dga Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 671
Loc: Raleigh NC
Originally Posted By: CocoTex




Also, while I'm begging for info, when I make a chord change, it is not recognized until I regenerate the entire song. Like if I just regenerate the piano, it will recognize the new chord, but the other non-regenerated instruments will not. I'm sure there's a better way to do this, hate regenerating when it's not required.)

Thanks everyone.

Andy


The Snowflake is the Freeze button next to the solo and mute buttons. Turns blue when its frozen, grey when it is unfrozen. I freeze all tracks when I like the arrangement that the instruments are playing. And I freeze all track on a song when I am finished with it. If you accidently enter a chord or push the generate button, you may never hear that super arrangement you once had.
_________________________
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"

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#342216 - 03/28/16 05:28 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: dga]
CocoTex Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Thanks, DGA.

I've rarely opened RB. My head's about to explode as it is. But I'll try that with the "new" audio vocal track. Still it's weird that once I could, but now I can't get an imported audio track to play in sync.

I knew that about freezing, and that's why I asked. I did not know if there was a work-around when changing a chord other than regenerating an instrument, or all instruments to pick up the new chord, but then losing all the frozen arrangements.

I'd never thought about singling out instruments for chord tweaks, though. Cool idea.

Thanks for your help.
_________________________
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller

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#342248 - 03/28/16 11:53 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3731
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
CocoTex,

When you record a track on your Zoom R16 are you creating space for the two bar lead in BiaB requires? When you listen to a BiaB recorded track on the Zoom R16 while you are recording a new track you will hear a two bar count-in generated by the R16 and a two bar count in generated by BiaB. Even if you do not include the BiaB generated two bar count in when BiaB renders the track, two bars of empty space need to be present at the beginning of the R16 created track if the R16 track is going to be imported into BiaB.

Another thought is your R16 recording settings may not match BiaB settings. BiaB uses 16 bit depth at 44.1Khz sample rate. You indicated the R16 bit depth is 24 bits. That's fine as BiaB just ignores the extra bits but what sample rate do you have the R16 set at? A mismatched sample rate can cause pitch or timing error.

Here's another approach to mixing you may like:

Lower all track faders to 0 volume.

Raise the drum fader until the drum volume level is comfortable.

Raise the bass volume level until the sound of the bass blends well with the drums. Can you clearly hear the kick drum? Does the kick drum hide any of the bass notes? If so then you need to adjust both track EQs until everything can be clearly heard then adjust your fader levels again to blend the tracks.

Add another track and repeat the last step.

By the time you're finished adding tracks everything should still be clearly heard and at the correct volume level relative to each other.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (516) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#342265 - 03/28/16 03:13 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
CocoTex Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Thank you, Jim.

The R16 allows a choice of either 16 or 24 bits, and the depth is 44.1Khz, no changes allowed for this sample rate. I'll change it to 16 just in case it accidently has an effect. But you may have hit a spot for me.

When rendering BIAB tracks to wav files (mono and one file per BIAB track) I do select 2 bar lead-in, and I don't find a way to specifically add 2 bars to the R16, but I'm recording the track based on the BIAB track's lead in.

BUT I think recently I added the BIAB 2 second delay (the Render to Audio File cell under "ACID info"). So that might be it, but the tempo still has been off when I import the new track from the R16 to BIAB.

(I don't know if ACID info is needed, so if you think that's a problem too, please let me know.)

I've reset the delay at start to 0 seconds and will try it. Like I said, I used not to have this issue, so it must be something I tinkered with.

Thank you again for taking time to help me. All of you, too.

Andy


Edited by CocoTex (03/28/16 03:29 PM)
_________________________
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller

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#342295 - 03/28/16 07:14 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3731
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Andy,

Thanks for the correction about the R16 sample rate. I hope you'll update this thread with the solution!
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (516) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#342319 - 03/29/16 02:33 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8056
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: CocoTex


(I don't know if ACID info is needed, so if you think that's a problem too, please let me know.)



Andy

Don't use Acid at this stage. It won't (shouldn't) affect your results, but is one less item in the equation.

Trev
_________________________

BIAB, RB 2018(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Izotope Prod. Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, KorgX3R, RodeNGT2, AM802mixer, NS40M Studio Monitors, Pioneer Active Mons, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

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#343799 - 04/07/16 02:38 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
CocoTex Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Setting the delay to 0 didn't help. But, however it happened, it resolved a week later when I created a new draft of the song. Importing a wav audio track is now completely synced. I'm still using the original bare bones, so it's beyond me how/what/why, but I'll take that as a win.
_________________________
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller

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#343800 - 04/07/16 02:39 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: VideoTrack]
CocoTex Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Thanks, Trev. I'll keep my paws off ACID. And acid. smile
_________________________
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller

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#343986 - 04/08/16 07:46 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: rharv]
dga Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 671
Loc: Raleigh NC
Originally Posted By: rharv


hence my workflow of changing the BB tracks to regular tracks right away.


How do you change a BB track to a regular track in RB? What is the purpose/advantage of doing this?


Edited by dga (04/08/16 07:49 PM)
_________________________
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"

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#344037 - 04/09/16 04:42 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18765
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Under the Edit Menu item
Edit-Tracks-Make all BB Tracks regular tracks

Purpose?
So you can treat them like regular DAW tracks..
This is only in Realband, not in BiaB
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Make your sound your own!

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#344065 - 04/09/16 08:17 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3731
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
RealBand reserves the first eight tracks for Band-in-a-Box tracks so if you are starting to create a song in RealBand, the first track available for you to use is track # 9. Since the RealBand control panel and menus are at the top of the page you are constantly having to skip over the first eight, reserved for BiaB, tracks. So if BiaB is not involved in creating your song there is no need to reserve the first eight tracks for BiaB.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (516) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#344103 - 04/09/16 01:58 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18765
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Also, if you open a BiaB song file in RB, it will try to handle the first 8 (BiaB) tracks like you were still in BiaB. The names have a different color and the tracks behave differently.

Example: RB will regenerate those 8 tracks when (generic) Generate is invoked.

I'd rather they acted like all the rest of the RB tracks, and regenerate only when I've selected them specifically.
This is why my workflow is like I said above.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#344138 - 04/09/16 06:18 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: rharv]
dga Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/15
Posts: 671
Loc: Raleigh NC
Originally Posted By: rharv
Also, if you open a BiaB song file in RB, it will try to handle the first 8 (BiaB) tracks like you were still in BiaB. The names have a different color and the tracks behave differently.

Example: RB will regenerate those 8 tracks when (generic) Generate is invoked.

I'd rather they acted like all the rest of the RB tracks, and regenerate only when I've selected them specifically.
This is why my workflow is like I said above.


I am really annoyed with the first 8 tracks being empty when I open a BIAB file in RB. I scrunch them all up by reducing the with of the first 8 tracks, I've never been able to put anything on those tracks. SO are you saying you can put stuff in those tracks?


Edited by dga (04/09/16 06:21 PM)
_________________________
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"

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#344198 - 04/10/16 07:11 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Mastering a song [Re: CocoTex]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18765
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Yes-
Edit-Tracks-Make all BB Tracks regular tracks

Then they are just like all the rest of the tracks; do whatever you want with them
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Make your sound your own!

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