Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
You need to be logged in to post on the forum
Topic Options
Index
#145193 - 01/04/12 08:53 PM RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11529
It's easy to get MIDI samples that are as good (or better) than actual instruments.

And if you (magically) got Fats Waller over to your house, and he played your MIDI piano, it would sound fantastic, and blow away almost anyone else playing on an actual piano.
I read an article that Herbie Hancock plays most of the time on a software synth piano (hooked up to 2 Macs, just in case one goes down). So he plays a MIDI piano.

But the key ingredient in this theoretical example isn't "MIDI" vs actual instrument, it is the musician - Fats Waller in this example.

With our RealTracks styles, we have tried to also include the "musician" in the style, by actually recording fabulous musicians. This doesn't happen with our MIDI styles. With our MIDI styles, you just get C7 chord patterns by the keyboard player who made the style.

The term "RealTracks" means "Real Musician, playing on a Real Instrument"

Why try, in words, to debate which approach is better? Why not just listen to the results, compare them, and judge for yourself?

So let’s use are ears for awhile, and judge for yourself if you prefer Band-in-a-Box MIDI styles or RealTracks…

MIDI vs RealTracks (Band-in-a-Box styles)

For the RealTracks demos, all tracks (including the solos) are generated by Band-in-a-Box,
For the MIDI demos, all tracks except the melody are generated. the melody track is not generated, it is a composition played in.

The MIDI synths are the
1. Roland VSC Software (Virtual Sound Canvas), (similar to MS GS WaveTable and Coyote WT Wavetable)
2. Roland Hypercanvas (TTS-1) software (better than the Virtual Sound Canvas, and compatible with all Windwos versions. (32 and 64 bit)
3. Coyote Forte Softsynth
4. Roland SD-20 Hardware Sound Canvas (newer module)
5. Roland SC-155 Hardware Sound Canvas (older module)
6. Ketron SD2 Modules

The demos are of a RealTracks BIAB style, followed by a similar BIAB MIDI style with the 3 synths (1 software synth and a hardware one)
======== JAZZ =====================
RealTracks Jazz Swing http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/_J140_OS.wma
MIDI Software VSC Jazz Swing: VSC: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/J_DIZZY.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/J_DIZZY_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/J_DIZZY_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 Jazz Swing: Ketron SD2: MIDI Jazz Swing: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/J_DIZZY_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/J_DIZZY_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/J_DIZZY_Roland_SC-155.wma

RealTracks Jazz Ballad: http://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/jazzu/misc/slowbal2.wma
MIDI Software VSC Jazz Ballad: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/JAZZBAL1.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/JAZZBAL1_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/JAZZBAL1_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/JAZZBAL1_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/JAZZBAL1_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/JAZZBAL1_Roland_SC-155.wma

REalTracks Smooth Jazz (Breezy): http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos/_jbrztss.wma
Another RealTracks, playing over same chord changes as the MIDI ones, with a soprano sax solo instead of the melody: http://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/jazzu/misc/KGBALLAD_Realtracks.WMA
MIDI Software VSC Smooth Jazz: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/kgballad.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/KGBALLAD_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/KGBALLAD_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/KGBALLAD_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/KGBALLAD_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/KGBALLAD_Roland_SC-155.wma

RealTracks Slow Bossa : http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos/_bossany85.wma
MIDI Software VSC Bossa: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/bosalite.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BOSALITE_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BOSALITE_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BOSALITE_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BOSALITE_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BOSALITE_Roland_SC-155.wma

========= ROCK, BLUES ==================
RealTracks Blues Shuffle : http://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/jazzu/misc/BluesEPianoGuitar.WMA
MIDI Software VSC Blues Shuffle: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/bonnier.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BONNIER_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BONNIER_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BONNIER_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BONNIER_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/BONNIER_Roland_SC-155.wma

Rock Ballad: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/_BALBMS1.wma
MIDI Software VSC Rock Ballad: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/ROADHOG1.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/ROADHOG1_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/ROADHOG1_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/ROADHOG1_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/ROADHOG1_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/ROADHOG1_Roland_SC-155.wma

===== COUNTRY =======================
RealTracks Slow Country 12/8 : http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/_CRYSTAL.wma
MIDI Software VSC Country http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/C~CRYSTL.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/C~CRYSTL_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/C~CRYSTL_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/C~CRYSTL_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/C~CRYSTL_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/C~CRYSTL_Roland_SC-155.wma
=========== OTHER ===================
RealTracks Celtic Reel: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/_CELTJIG.wma
MIDI Software VSC Irish Jig: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/CELT_JIG.wma
MIDI Software Coyote Forte: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/CELT_JIG_ForteDXi.wma
MIDI Software Roland Hypercanvas (aka Cakewalk TTS-1): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/CELT_JIG_TTS1.wma
MIDI Hardware Sound Canvas SD-20 http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/CELT_JIG_Edirol_SD-20.wma
MIDI Hardware Ketron SD2: http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/CELT_JIG_Ketron_SD2.wma
MIDI Hardware Roland Sound Canvas SC155 ("older model"): http://64.40.109.32/audio/allstyledemos/CELT_JIG_Roland_SC-155.wma

Some points to remember:
- There are many more MIDI styles in Band-in-a-Box than RealTracks styles. So you might use a MIDI style because there isn't a RealTracks style available.
- Mixing MIDI and RealTracks styles can be done easily in Band-in-a-Box. You can get the best of both worlds by doing this, to get the style you're looking for.
- MIDI styles are more editable than RealTracks styles. If you plan on doing a huge amount of editing of the parts, to add in different specific segments, consider using a MIDI style. If you are happy with the results as is, or just need to do a few copy and paste edits, you can use RealTracks and edit them in a DAW like RealBand (or Sonar etc.)
_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

Top
#145194 - 01/05/12 08:39 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: PeterGannon]
Keebo Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 192
Good info, tips, and examples. Thanks Peter.

Another good reason to let the Realtrack session musicians record via MIDI controllers when creating new MIDI styles.

Thanks.
_________________________
See Personal Bio for system setup

My SoundClick Page

Top
#145195 - 01/05/12 12:03 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: Keebo]
Robh Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 4034
Loc: California
Peter, my only thought about the comparison page is that VSC is a very bad example of midi tracks, even TTS would pale in comparison to RT in sound quality. To do a real solid comparison would it not be better to use the very best midi synth available? I mean maybe mixed down MP3s from the Ketron unit, or maybe a top flight softsynth like kontact or something similar?
_________________________
Toshiba dual core Win 7 4 gig ram, BiaB, Realband, Studio one Producer, Melodyne, Gibson S-1, Carvin 980 Cobalt acoustic, Ovation legend 12 string, clone jazz bass, Fender Mustang III amp, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL interface, TC Helicon voiceworks.

Top
#145196 - 01/05/12 01:37 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: Robh]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11529
Hi Rob,
Good suggestion.
Yes, we have just added links to MIDI demos for the MIDI Modules
1. Roland SD20 Sound Canvas (we sell the current one, which is the SD50 http://www.pgmusic.com/rolandsd50.win.htm

2. the Ketron SD2 http://www.pgmusic.com/ketronsd2.htm

_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

Top
#145197 - 01/06/12 11:14 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: PeterGannon]
Rachael Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/18/07
Posts: 1602
Nice comparisons. Back a few years ago, I was sold on BIAB when RealDrums were introduced as Midi drums sounded too 'perfect'. The post is about RealTracks. I'm not asking for links to these demos using RealDrums but I would certainly notice a big difference. The hardware synths do sound nice for the most part.

R

Top
#145198 - 01/06/12 10:41 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: Rachael]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 5307
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Excellent way to show the difference in quality between the various sound options. People deciding which MIDI route to take will benefit from the comparison. And I hope some people who were previously not interested in the real tracks will hear what they are missing.

thanks for posting!

I agree that it would be interesting to offer a version of each demo using Garritan or other high quality sound library.

I think members of the forum would also benefit from hearing the difference in the same song played through the same sound source..
1) played straight out of BIAB, no CC tweaks
2) the same song, same MIDI module, but fully tweaked out.

(I bet MIDI hard and soft synth sales would increase dramatically after that demo.)

_________________________
You can train a dog to jump through a hoop by positive reinforcement. But if you kick him just once after he jumps through the hoop, he will probably avoid the hoop from then on. The same principle is true of song writing.

Top
#145199 - 01/07/12 07:46 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: Pat Marr]
carkins Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 349
WOW!
What a difference to my ears between the Ketron and Roland examples and the VSC example.
Makes the VSC sound like something from Toys R Us!

Would there be that same difference if you were using the sound banks from a Casio or Yamaha midi keyboard if that's possible (new to midi)?

How about a midi keyboard, external synth, shoot out to determine which is the best value for a newbie (price vs sound quality) all playing the same song with the same or no effects?

Maybe as a separate Midi Forum defining the parameters.
I'm sure there would be lots of opinions and contributions from some of the the midi-philes out there.

Could be interesting and informative.
Carkins

Top
#145200 - 01/07/12 08:10 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: carkins]
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 7220
Loc: Hamlin NY

Peter, thanx for adding the Sound Canvas SD-20 and the Ketron SD2 in your comparisons.

Quote:

WOW!
What a difference to my ears between the Ketron and Roland examples and the VSC example.
Makes the VSC sound like something from Toys R Us!






Carkins, this proves exactly what those of us who like MIDI have been saying all along; the more money you put into sound samples the better the output. There are hard and soft synths that can make both the Ketron and Sound Canvas sound like they were from Toys R Us, I just wish that I could afford them
_________________________
It has taken me many years but I have finally figured out what I want to be...............younger!

Top
#145201 - 01/07/12 09:25 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: carkins]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 5307
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

WOW!
What a difference to my ears between the Ketron and Roland examples and the VSC example.
Makes the VSC sound like something from Toys R Us!

Carkins




when Roland VSC first came out, I loved it because it made MIDI sound so much better than what I was hearing when a MIDI file played on the web through my browser. I suppose a lot of people (maybe the majority) have never heard MIDI played EXCEPT through a web browser.

It would also be a good comparison to include that for at least the first demo. After one, I don't think anybody will click on the IE demo again. But it MIGHT make some people realize that there's more to MIDI than they THOUGHT.
_________________________
You can train a dog to jump through a hoop by positive reinforcement. But if you kick him just once after he jumps through the hoop, he will probably avoid the hoop from then on. The same principle is true of song writing.

Top
#145202 - 01/07/12 09:39 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: MarioD]
Kemmrich Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1531
Of course the realtracks versions don't have any of the "signature riffs" that seem to be present in the midi driven audio. If you have to have signature riffs, then you need midi or play them yourself. The realtracks shine (to me) when using instruments to support original numbers with additional "live instruments" and vocals on recordings.

I can't see why anyone needs to insist on midi-only or realtrack-only. They are compatible. However, I do see Note's point where he wants to play/compose everything from a "self-satisfaction" point and to get the backing tracks to do EXACTLY what he wants. I just want the end result to sound good. If I am playing live, I won't be using any backing tracks (but I am not pedantic about that point, either).
_________________________
"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
Kevin on Soundclick

Top
#145203 - 01/07/12 12:03 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: Kemmrich]
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 7220
Loc: Hamlin NY
Quote:

I can't see why anyone needs to insist on midi-only or realtrack-only. They are compatible.




EXACTLY

Both are different tools for us to use or not use as we see fit. Personally I use both but the majority of my music contains MIDI generated parts. I like midi for the exact same reasons as Notes does. However I have some clients who just need backing tracks for their songs, mostly copies of songs they want to have for their children/grandchildren and friends. For this purpose RTs are perfect. Fast with a great sound, i.e. I don’t have to put a lot of time into creating MIDI parts. My clients are very happy with the results, as I am.

Fighting over what’s better MIDI or RTs is like fighting over what’s better a Chevy or a Ford IMHO. There will never be an end to either battle!
_________________________
It has taken me many years but I have finally figured out what I want to be...............younger!

Top
#145204 - 01/07/12 01:17 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: MarioD]
MitchC Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 08/19/11
Posts: 581
DITTO THE "EXACTLY"

(from another post..)

I honestly just do not understand this whole MIDI vs RB/RT debate. There is no debate. They both do different things. It's not an 'either / or' situation.

To the point of this thread, to the OP, here is a tune I did string swells on... and it happens to incorporate BIAB, Real Band, using primarily Real Tracks. If there were Real String tracks I probably would use them. There are not, so I needed MIDI. Using Piano Roll, entered my string parts, renedered them with Garritan Personal Orchestra. And lastly, a live lap steel track. Every tool used was the right one for my particular need. Each element was necessary, and one does not negate the value of the others.

Not much on debates so this will be my last on the MIDI vs Real Tracks thing...

The tune, if interested:

http://soundcloud.com/mitchc-1/beyond-the-reef-hi-c6

Top
#145205 - 01/10/12 05:15 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: Kemmrich]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11529
We added a few more synths....


Software Roland Hypercanvas (TTS-1)
- note: this is available as a purchase from us (you buy Cakewalk Music Creator ($39), and it includes this great synth. http://www.pgmusic.com/musiccreator.features.htm

Software Coyote Forte $40
http://www.pgmusic.com/coyotefortedxi.htm

Hardware (older) Roland Sound Canvas SC-155
_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

Top
#145206 - 01/11/12 09:33 AM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: PeterGannon]
filkertom Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 1882
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
+1 on the Exactly. I love Real Tracks, I love MIDI, I use 'em together.
_________________________
Best,
Tom Smith
My Music at Bandcamp
Win7/64 SP1 • i5-3570K • 16 GB RAM
Audiophile 192 • BIAB 2014 • Reaper 4
AKG C1000S • Behringer Xynex1002

Top
#145207 - 01/25/12 07:57 PM Re: RealTracks vs MIDI (Band-in-a-Box styles).... Compare [Re: filkertom]
Keith McIntyre Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 40
Loc: San Diego
Really nice post. I appreciate hearing the various softsynth tracks.

To me midi vs realtracks comes down to application. RTs are much better at reproducing instruments that have a lot of humanistic nuance. Like the sax. So much of playing the sax is in the embrasure. Without spending a LOT of time tweaking midi controllers it is really hard to get a convincing sax.

Mallets hitting a metal bar are much easier to model. Velocity is pretty much all you need.

Midi works great for sequencing synths, where there really isn't a "standard" timbre to compare the timbre to.

BIAB midi styles are good, but they don't put the care into tweaking the specific midi instrument that is required to get realistic timbres on brass, woodwinds, and strings. Keyboards and percussion are more approachable from the vantage of timbre. It's the physics of the instrument...

But the premise that RTs and RDs possess more musicality comes into play with keyboards and percussion. They do have more human feel (imperfections and nuances that the human ear expects of a live musician).

IMO RT/RD is superior to midi styles regardless of which synth is used - with the caveat that there is a RealStyle that matches the style you want to play. Midi provides more flexibility to paint soundscapes using electronic instruments (synths).

I use BIAB for jazz accompaniment. I want live musicians playing acoustic instruments without paying for them. RealStyles are GREAT!

YMMV :-)

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Shout Box (Live chat with other users)

PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows Build 413 Patch Available

We've recently posted the Band-in-a-Box Version 2015 Build 413 Update which is a free update for any Band-in-a-Box 2015 customer.

Click here to download the update.

Limited Edition RealTracks in the 20 & 49-PAK!

If you're purchasing Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows during our Special, be sure to check out the additional RealTracks, MIDI SuperTracks, Artist Performance Sets and Instrumental Studies available in the 20 & 49-PAK which you can add to your purchase!

Video - Save Your Song as a Video with Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows!

One of the newest features in Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows is the ability to save your song as a video!

Watch this newest feature in action with our YouTube video: http://youtu.be/P07vmLIJCok

Introducing RealTracks Artist Avery Bright - Album Credits

RealTracks Artist Avery Bright has been playing the Violin since he was just four years old! He's been part of a few different albums this year - view his album credits here.

You'll find Avery's work in RealTracks Set 206: Pop String Quartet.

Purchase jBridge for Only $10!

One of the exciting new features in Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows is support for 64-bit VST Plugins when you use jBridge.

You can purchase jBridge for just $10 during our special! Click here for more information.

Load and Play Videos with Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows!

One of the new features in Band-in-a-Box 2015 for Windows is the ability to load videos that you have already downloaded from YouTube or elsewhere into Band-in-a-Box Video Window. The audio is extracted from the video to the audio track!
Watch program creator Peter Gannon explain this new feature here.

Introducing RealTracks Artist Mike Moreno - Upcoming Shows!

Mike Moreno is a Jazz guitarist recognized as being one of the most important figures in the new generation of Jazz guitarists! He's also a busy man - not only will you find his work in our newest Jazz RealTracks Sets 215-216, you'll also find him performing throughout January! For a complete list of his upcoming performances, visit http://www.mikemoreno.com/shows.html

Forum Stats
22407 Members
39 Forums
31749 Topics
251798 Posts

Max Online: 1063 @ 07/10/13 12:12 PM
Newest Members
vwxyz{380874, lmnopq014574, Karneys, Lazy Bird, 10001

22406 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
PeterGannon 282
Noel96 265
Matt Finley 214
Pat Marr 210
rharv 209
seeker 167
jford 166
Greg Johnson 165
Guitarhacker 134
solidrock 134
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays