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As a musician who has been sampled, although it was decades ago, I can say that I signed a standard release. I suspect this is the case now. But the owner of the samples library, that's quite another matter. I have no idea what rights they may insist upon, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover different standards for different libraries. Tread carefully here.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Who needs to tread carefully? What we're talking about here is posting user tracks on this website using sample libraries not posting them on your own website for others to use.
That's why I said if PGM is cool with it then what's it matter to us? In spite of the other comment above, people have been posting user tracks here for some time now so I think it's safe to say PGM is ok with it and if there's a problem they'll let us know. No need to assume the opposite.
As I said, this is an interesting theoretical discussion but unless we hear something new from PG...?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Add-ons and UserTracks for Band-in-a-Box
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Wow! This is an interesting thread! My short version take on it is PGmusic is ok with it. They nuked the joke thread, and I would think if there was worry, this would have been addressed!
Great points made, and JJJ thanks for bring up the discussion!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Ok is the issue we are all discussing sample clearance? Or copyright violation. Two distinctly different issues. Here is an article on Sample clearance. How much exposure is your use of the sample getting? When are you at risk. When performing samples at a club "a live situation" the Owner of the club is at risk not the performer. But, I think we all already knew that. http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/permission-sampled-music-sample-clearance-30165.htmlOn the topic of copyright infringement I don't think 12 bar blues are exempt from protection. Even though they have the same chord pattern, slip in a solo, melody, or hook, noticeably similar to "Said Artist" and "Said Artist" has a right to claim you have stolen his musical property.
Last edited by dga; 05/12/16 03:57 PM.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Ok is the issue we are all discussing sample clearance? Or copyright violation. My question has always been very narrow. My question is NOT "can I use samples in my songs?"! Of course I can. My question is NOT "can I distribute/sell my songs containing samples?" Again, of course I can! And I am fairly certain I can convert my licensed sample libraries to UserTracks for my own use inside BIAB. My question is "can I use the technology of UserTracks to redistribute samples I have licensed?" UserTrack technology enables me to take a sample library and effectively convert it to a new format (UserTrack) and then redistribute it so others who do not purchase those samples can now create songs using them! And yes, I understand that in order to create the UserTrack I am combining both the samples and a pattern I play. So I guess the case could be made that I have altered the samples I am delivering by converting them into strings of WAV files. But I could see how someone selling a sample library might have an issue with me using their library to create a new library for distribution.
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Ok is the issue we are all discussing sample clearance? Or copyright violation. My question has always been very narrow. My question is NOT "can I use samples in my songs?"! Of course I can. You cannot unscrupulously use a recognizable musical sample in your songs. Example James Brown's voice. The intro to the theme song of a popular TV or Movie. Plain and simple if you use something that is recognizable from another artist or publisher they have the right to compensation if you start making money off the property.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Ok is the issue we are all discussing sample clearance? Or copyright violation. My question has always been very narrow. My question is NOT "can I use samples in my songs?"! Of course I can. You cannot unscrupulously use a recognizable musical sample in your songs. Example James Brown's voice. The intro to the theme song of a popular TV or Movie. Plain and simple if you use something that is recognizable from another artist or publisher they have the right to compensation if you start making money off the property. I agree! But we are not talking about sampling other music, rather, about purchasing a sample library and then creating UserTracks based on it. There seems to be an opinion here that as long as you are playing the pattern you can use the samples to make the pattern into audio and then distribute that new UserTrack. I have tried to boil this down to something simple for myself. Let's say a simple new library of rare Mayan flute sounds is created by NI. There is nothing in the library but a series of notes. I then use that library to play one note per bar in my UserTrack. Now I give away the UserTrack and someone else can use it to play one note per bar in their BIAB song and it should sound exactly like the original sample library. So the end-user of my UserTrack can now add rare Mayan flute to their songs without ever purchasing the sample library. Because I am enabling others to use the sounds from the library, even in a modified form, it seems to me that would be a problem for the library owner.
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There is nothing in their library but a bunch of their samples, copyrighted.
You want to allow BIAB users to access Native Instruments samples through the use of your user tracks. I don't think you would get into any trouble converting a few, or even a dozen. But, I would not convert an entire library without contacting NI. You may even contact them and see if they are interested in your skills. You seem to be way ahead of the curve here, both understanding the use of NI libraries, and how to convert them into UserTracks for use in BIAB. The only downside you have in contacting NI is if they tell you do not do that. Then you have your answer. You need to ask the question to NI the source of your sounds.
Last edited by dga; 05/13/16 03:44 AM.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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JohnJohnJohn, I do see where you are coming from. A short example. If I purchase "The Best Percussion Samples EVER" library (I just made it up) and use a tambourine sample that only plays on beat 2...all fine.
If I make a user track of a tambourine that only plays on beat 2 and give it to others to use in their songs...fine? Perhaps a different kind of fine$?
My take on it is, they aren't making a big deal out of it, so I'm not going to. I totally see your point though.
I can see where the is a difference with using samples from a library in your own song, and using those same samples to construct something for others to use in their songs.
However, if they own that same library, is then ok again? lol I'm guessing so. Just having fun with this one. Not meaning to really start replies to it.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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If you make the user track up without saying "oh this is from xxx sample library" it might save a lot of problems - other than that as said before just upload it as a midi user track - otherwise this thread will go on forever and ever and get nowhere.
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Uploading it as a MIDI user track defeats the whole purpose of using a sample library to create a great sounding UserTrack. Users will have the pattern only, no sound associated with the pattern. They will have to select one of their own sounds.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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If I purchase "The Best Percussion Samples EVER" library (I just made it up)and use a tambourine sample that only plays on beat 2...all fine.
If I make a user track of a tambourine that only plays on beat 2 and give it to others to use in their songs...fine? Perhaps a different kind of fine$? I don't think playing on beat 2 fits the definition of a sample .. or a library Most licenses concern the sound set libraries themselves. These are compiled, defined collections (often dll files). Once you trigger a 'chunk' of this dll sound set and capture it as audio, that's where I think the line is drawn. I may have used X synth but I told it how/when to play the sound. This is normally what the license is for. A Performance .. timing, velocity, audio capture, etc .. of said sound. Otherwise why would anybody agree to the license? If someone posted a User Track of a single sample from a given synth/library (ie the crash cymbal from drum kit X of the above mentioned 'The Best Percussion Samples EVER' library), I may reconsider the intent, as that could be considered a Sample, not a User Track. I suppose someone could start sharing actual 'samples' under the guise of UT's, but that is surely not the intent nor the use as far as I have seen. Edit: It appears I replied to the wrong poster .. quote was from HearToLearn .. sorry
Last edited by rharv; 05/14/16 08:40 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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rharv, thanks for your insights. Let me throw one more thing into the mix and see how this goes!  I recently purchased Sample Tank 3. It has many amazing samples. It also has patterns I can apply to those samples so I do not even need to play on my MIDI controller. So imagine the following scenario, 1) I open up Sample Tank 3 and choose an instrument that is quite unique (maybe a Zu Zitter Carzay or a Slu Slumker!) 2) I grab the PG UserTrack template to be sure I cover every chord/key 3) I start recording and I trigger an ST3 pattern each time I hit a new bar 4) I keep doing this until I have a ton of "riffs"/patterns recorded as WAV for my UserTrack 5) I now distribute (maybe even sell) my UserTrack as the JohnJohnJohn Zu Zitter Carzay My contribution in this scenario is essentially to convert the ST3 instrument to a new (albeit more limited) format. When I start distributing it have I not breached my license agreement with IK?
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@dga "Uploading it as a MIDI user track defeats the whole purpose of using a sample library to create a great sounding UserTrack."
Can I use MIDI SuperTracks or MIDI Drums on my own sample library to get the sound I need or the correct drum level and sound I need ?
I would upload any sample it would not worry me but some are worried so the midi is a better option for them.
It is at a stalemate still so the options are:
1. Contact the sample company and get permission.
2. Use sample companies that give 100% usage for any purpose.
3. Just upload it without out any company names.
4. Upload the midi only.
5. Based on some amount of turmoil, Stop Making UserTracks.
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Once you trigger a 'chunk' of this dll sound set and capture it as audio, that's where I think the line is drawn.
I may have used X synth but I told it how/when to play the sound. This is normally what the license is for. A Performance .. timing, velocity, audio capture, etc .. of said sound. Yes, you did make a performance. No issue there. BUT then if you make it available for other people to use in THEIR performances, is that ok? I'm not implying it's not, I'm asking. Honestly, I don't really care. I just saw JohnJohnJohn's point.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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JJJ,
In your example you are taking a pattern (performance) IK made, so I have no idea what their rules are for use.
The User Track creator is the one taking the leap of saying "You all can use my performance" when he uploads it.
If you are comfortable doing that with your example go ahead; I would not feel good about it myself. That would not meet the intent of a performance.
Yes it is possible to do, but morally off base in my mind.
The intent in your example is to give away something someone else created. You are no longer an artist using a tool to create something at that point; more like an artist making copies of an existing tool.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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JJJ,
In your example you are taking a pattern (performance) IK made, so I have no idea what their rules are for use.
The User Track creator is the one taking the leap of saying "You all can use my performance" when he uploads it.
If you are comfortable doing that with your example go ahead; I would not feel good about it myself. That would not meet the intent of a performance.
Yes it is possible to do, but morally off base in my mind.
The intent in your example is to give away something someone else created. You are no longer an artist using a tool to create something at that point; more like an artist making copies of an existing tool.
I agree with you 100%! In that example I would be using IK samples AND IK performance to create a new product for distribution. I think that is both legally and morally wrong. But I feel using their samples and my performance to create a new product for distribution may also be legally and morally wrong. Clearly I am allowed to use their samples and my performance in my own songs. But if I distribute the results so others can make songs that is where I think a line has been crossed. The recipient of the UserTrack gets two valuable things...my performance and IK sounds without ever purchasing an IK license.I cannot imagine my license with IK allows me to redistribute their sounds! As I have said before my interest is in understanding our rights and not in discouraging anyone from doing this. It would be great to hear from PG as to whether they fully investigated this and concluded we have the right to distribute UserTracks that contain 3rd party licensed samples.
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"I trigger an ST3 pattern each time I hit a new bar"
with the IK "Patterns" how does it play them over the chord track ? does it fit them to the chord/scale notes ?
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"I trigger an ST3 pattern each time I hit a new bar"
with the IK "Patterns" how does it play them over the chord track ? does it fit them to the chord/scale notes ? Yes. It fits them for chord/scale and tempo.
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Just been watching the videos but can't see how it works, does it follow a midi chord input track ?
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