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#150414 - 02/12/12 12:05 PM More than 4 chords per measure
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
I need to have explained how to enter chords in a given measure on the 3rd beat, the 4th beat and the and of the 4th beat. Can someone help me with this? Thanks.

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#150415 - 02/12/12 12:40 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: bjbear]
Danna Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 192
Believe it is "chord comma chord"

chord,chord

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#150416 - 02/12/12 01:01 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Danna]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 11322
Loc: Mid-Hudson Valley, New York an...
Chord comma chord in the second half of cell will get you the chord on beat 3 and beat four. For the 'and' of four, you need one more step.

Go to the first beat of the next measure and do what is called a push of the value of an eighth note. You can do this with the carat character, like this: ^D7. Or you can right-click in the bar, choose 'chord settings', and you will see the choices for push. A push plays the chord earlier, so a push on beat one makes it play on the and of four in the prior measure.

You should check out Help, Index, Pushes and Help, Index, Chord Entry.
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#150417 - 02/12/12 04:53 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Matt Finley]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3184
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I had that problem, and that is why about 10 years ago I invented EXPANDED styles.

The styles are written to be EXPANDED. In other words, each numbered Cell in BiaB becomes a half measure instead of a whole measure. So you can put 8 chords in a measure. Also (and this is more common) you can put a chord on a beat AND the upbeat before the very same beat.

They play well in your EXPANDED song, but since each cell is now only a half measure (2 beats in 4/4 time) you do have to double the tempo. So if your song is to be played at mm=120, double it to 240, EXPAND the song, and it will play perfectly.

To listen to some of my EXPANDED styles, go to http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150418 - 02/12/12 07:51 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 11322
Loc: Mid-Hudson Valley, New York an...
There are two issues going on here. The topic name is, "More than 4 chords per measure".

Notes has presented an excellent solution. There is another less elegant way to work around it that sometimes works, by treating two measures as one and adjusting the tempo and style.

But that isn't needed in the example given by bjbear.

Yes, you are limited to 4 chords per bar in BIAB, but using the push, the chord that is to sound on the 'and' of four appears in the next bar and counts toward the maximum four chords allowed in that next bar.

What you cannot do, in your example, is also have a chord on beat one of the following bar. For that, you need the Expanded styles or some workaround fudging.
_________________________
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#150419 - 02/12/12 10:55 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Matt Finley]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.

Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them. Of course, I have other songs I can do in the meantime.

Usually I'm running things too slow I guess. Circus march??? (I hate that genre, but that's because I have trouble with the speed...on horn. I guess I should have learned it better instead I waited for the first lesson when I was 52.

Soldier on. The Empire is fine. Long live the Queen, but she already did.
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Musica est vita

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#150420 - 02/13/12 02:42 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: John Conley]
Cerio Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 555
Loc: Spain
Quote:

I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.




Having 8 chords per bar would be very useful for writing specific arrangments (or eigth notes patterns) on the bass line, for example. Having more than 256 bars per song would be still more useful to me; When working on new repertoires, I use extensively BIAB to transcribe chords using the audio chord wizard. I must transcribe medleys very often, and very often this kind of song have more than 256 bars. That forces me to use two BIAB files for a single song, wich is a mess (you must open twice the same file in ACW, you can't print both parts on the same sheet, etc, etc...)


Edited by Cerio (02/13/12 07:22 AM)

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#150421 - 02/13/12 03:15 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Matt Finley]
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
Thank you so much for your help. My experience with that is that then your down beat of 1 is non exsistant. But I will try that again.

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#150422 - 02/13/12 03:19 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
Thank you so very much. I only have 2 questions for you. What does the speed change do to the drum pattern being used? Also, does this only work with the traditional BIB styles, or will it work with the realband styles as well?

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#150423 - 02/13/12 07:19 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: bjbear]
jford Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 6471
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:

I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this.



John -

The problem usually isn't that you need 8 chord changes per bar, but that you need a chord change on the "and" of a beat and on the immediately following beat. Still 4 chord changes in the bar, but the chord change on the "and" allows for additional syncopation.

If we even had a "pull" to complement the "push", so that I could delay the chord by half a beat, that would probably solve 90% of the problem.

Of course, to me, the best solution would be to have 8th note resolution, because then notation would look right.

A lot of church hymns have chord changes on the "and" with a different chord on the next beat. One that comes immediately to mind is "Take My Hand" by Thomas A Dorsey. Here's the refrain:




There are others, and as a church musician, this is important to me.

For now, I'll usually just do a hold while I play the "and" chord on the keyboard and then come back in on the downbeat.
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#150424 - 02/13/12 08:57 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
I of course agree with you about not needing 8chords per measure. Just that it was easier to explain that way. You are correct, I am needing to put a chord on the and of 4 and it was suggested that I just do a push on the 1 of the next measure, which creates an entirely different problem in that there then is no chord on the downbeat of the 1. The other suggestion is to use expand and I haven't been able to make that work, as the drums also double in speed. I guess I just won't do that song. grrrr. lol.

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#150425 - 02/15/12 12:07 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: bjbear]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3184
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
bjbear, my EXPANDED styles will solve your problem.

John, We've done a number of fake books, and the songs that require a chord on a beat and the upbeat before that very same beat are plentiful. Without looking in the books, a few examples of songs that need EXPANDED styles immediately come to mind,
  • Jailhouse Rock (Elvis P),
  • You Really Got Me (Kinks),
  • Sunshine Of Your Love (Cream),
  • Don't Get Around Much Anymore (Ellington),
  • Old Deuteronomy (from Cats),
  • Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend (Marilyn Monroe),
  • Mamma Mia (ABBA),
  • The River Of Creams (Billy Joel),
  • Masquerade (from Phantom),
  • I Only Want To Be With You (Dusty Springfield),
  • Problems (Everly Brothers),
  • Mercy Mercy Mercy (Cannonball Adderly),
  • Yesterdays (Jerome Kern & Otto Harbach),
  • All Around The World (Lisa Stansfield),
  • Frankenstein (Edgar Winter),
  • After The Love Has Gone (Earth Wind & Fire),
  • Baby What A Big Surprise (Chicago),
  • Sir Duke (Stevie Wonder),
  • Dock Of the Bay (Otis Redding),
  • and so on and so on.

You asked for a list, John. Here it is.

Having a chord on the beat and on the upbeat before that very same beat is extremely common in Rock, Jazz and Country music songs. This is the main reason why I invented EXPANDED styles in the first place. Plus I've had a large number of songs that need more than 4 chords per measure, and a couple that actually need all 8.

My EXPANDED styles simply let you do songs that would be impossible to do with the 'normal' styles published by PG and Norton. My styles do not replace any BiaB styles, the add to the available songs you can do and therefore enhance and support the BiaB experience.

If you need them and think they are worth the money, by all means enjoy them, if you don't need them then feel free to ignore them.

Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (02/15/12 12:09 PM)
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150426 - 02/15/12 09:48 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11529
Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)
_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#150427 - 02/16/12 09:47 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
I understand completely and thank you. However, you made the statement that this does not work for realband styles. Unfortunately, that is what I use exclusively. Oh well.

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#150428 - 02/16/12 04:54 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
Cerio Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 555
Loc: Spain
Peter, can I ask if there's any plan of implementing the "More than 4 chords per bar" feature in the future?

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