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#150429 - 02/16/12 03:05 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Cerio]
jford Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 6273
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago).




Wow, I completely missed (or forgot) this. I guess you really do learn something new every day.

Thanks, Peter!
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John

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#150430 - 02/16/12 04:23 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 10684
Loc: Mid-Hudson Valley, New York an...
First I've seen it, too.
_________________________
"Brazilian Wish" CD 2-minute preview. Studio recordings of songs composed in Band in a Box.

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#150431 - 02/16/12 05:43 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Matt Finley]
MitchC Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 08/19/11
Posts: 581
So we don't need to buy 'Notes' expanded styles ? Is that what I'm hearing ? Will definately check this out ! Thanks Peter !

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#150432 - 02/16/12 07:27 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: MitchC]
John Conley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
John, I do play, and use band in a box. I have played that tune. I realize Band in a Box does not hit every note the way some want. Neither do the musicians in the bands I play in. The example you gave does baffle me.

Are you telling me you want band in a box to play metronomically each piece, with every note on something like the page of a hymnal smacked just as written? That's my music notation software, I can even make it click to help counting.

If you make an mp3 out of the passage does it sound wrong? Who is bothered by it. I am trying to imagine a 'modern' church, my version of that ends about 1969, but there was an organ, a vibraphone, a piano and a 30 member choir. I was often on the piano. (the bench)

Now in that case the pianist stayed off the organ, and I tried my best to put in a fatter sound. Sometimes I was out for a bar or two.

I have no idea how big an issue this has become I guess. I see it all the time. It bothers this person, or that one. Now, I can assure you that in none of the hundreds of music books here, that I have never seen a tune where I need more than 4 chords. And if I did, it would be 3 seconds to get around it.

I drop notes all the time, and chords. In fact I was taught to drop a lot of tied notes, that's for breathing.
_________________________
John Conley
Musica est vita

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#150433 - 02/17/12 06:37 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: John Conley]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 6273
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
I don't want to argue - you asked for an example and I provided one. I can find more, but I doubt I'll spend the time doing that.

The song I posted is also played slowly, so that one chord matters. It's not a matter of having more than 4 chords per bar (generally), it's a matter of being able to have a chord on the off-beat and a new chord on the very next beat. I think Bob Norton posted a number of songs where that would be the case.

Sure, I can get around it...that's not the point. The point is that songs do have chord changes on the off beat and often resolve to the chord on the beat. I've seen it in a number of choir pieces right before they modulate to a new key.

I suspect that this what most people are asking for and would mostly be happy with.

Keep 4 chords, but maybe allow a "pull" (to delay a chord by half a beat), versus a "push", and I'll be a happy man.
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#150434 - 02/17/12 08:11 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
Cerio Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Spain
Quote:

The point is that songs do have chord changes on the off beat and often resolve to the chord on the beat.




Exactly


Quote:

Keep 4 chords, but maybe allow a "pull" (to delay a chord by half a beat), versus a "push", and I'll be a happy man.




Having more than 4 chords per bar would be a much better and easier solution, in my opinion: for example, you could very easily write custom 8th notes bass lines and arrangments, and you wouldn't be limited to the 4 chords per bar "resolution" when printing chord sheets, wich means that actually (to my knowledge) you can't print chords on the off beat (in fact, I write them by hand)


Edited by Cerio (02/17/12 09:10 AM)

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#150435 - 02/18/12 07:15 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3072
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Although PG Music did thankfully include a way to expand their MIDI styles a decade after I invented EXPANDED styles, I think you will find that the Norton Music EXPANDED styles will work much better than expanding any 'normal'. Why? They were written to be EXPANDED and to sound right when EXPANDED. Of course I'm biased, I wrote them myself. But you can judge for yourself by listening to the free EXPANDED mp3 demos at http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html

No, you don't need to buy my styles, but you might want to. Almost all the people who do buy my styles come back for more. That's a good sign.

Notes
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#150436 - 02/18/12 11:22 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
axeplayer Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 93
Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)




Thanks very much for this Peter, I was ready to splash out on a few of the Norton Expanded styles until I saw your post.

Thanks very much again for letting us know as I wasn't aware of this feature:)

Axey

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#150437 - 02/18/12 12:30 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
maiki Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 222
Peter,

Thanks a lot for the great product, which I first bought in the DOS version, before there was Windows. Also, I think it is great that you, the creator of BIAB and CEO of PGMusic, participate in these forums, interacting directly with users.

Regarding the problem under discussion, isn't it about time that this limitation of BIAB be fixed? One should not have to jump through hoops and do complicated workarounds to make it work, and it should work in RealTracks as well.

There have been so many complaints about this limitation for years. Wouldn't it be a good idea to work on fixing it as a major goal for now? (Hopefully in an update for BIAB 2012?) Every year there are now 1001 more Real Tracks, more features, etc., but I think that fixing a serious limitation like that would be more important than any of those.


Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)



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#150438 - 02/18/12 01:09 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: maiki]
maiki Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 222
It is not that it is common to have songs with eight chord changes per 4/4 bar, throughout the song. In fact, I cannot think of one.

However, it is not so uncommon that in a particular measure of the song, one might need more than four chords in that measure.

Passing chords, for example. On beat four of a song, there might be eighth note chord changes, two chords in that beat, followed by a new chord in beat 1 of the next measure.

Or, there could be an important part of a song, where there are quarter note triplets on beat three and four, a new chord for each (could also be considered passing chords), I. E. three chords evenly spaced over two beats. One should be able to do that without complex workarounds, and also with RealTracks.

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#150439 - 02/19/12 06:36 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
I hope you didn't think I was arguing with you sir. I certainly am only trying to learn. Thank you for your help.

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#150440 - 02/19/12 07:40 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: maiki]
raymb1 Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 1779
Loc: Sterling, Va
One song would be "Sophisticated Lady". For the melody only, bars 2 and 4. Bar 2: Dbm7/Gb7, Cm7/F7, Bm7/E7, Bbm7/Eb7. Bar 4: Am7b5/D7b9, Abmb5/Db7b9, Gm7b5/C7b9, F#m7b5/B7b9. There are more subs than this example for those measures. Later, Ray


Edited by raymb1 (02/19/12 07:48 AM)
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#150441 - 02/20/12 02:46 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
babarton Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 203
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)





This looks like a good item to put in the "Tips and Tricks" Section (?)

Bruce

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#150442 - 02/21/12 11:02 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
tonnie Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 08/01/00
Posts: 198
Loc: Bergen, Norway
14/2/2010 I posted the following suggestionon how to enter 5 chords in one 4/4 bar.


Re: More than one chord change per beat? [Re: raymb1]
#262386 - 14/02/10 03:32 AM

If you want to add a quater note triplet chord movement, you can change that half of a 4/4 bar to a 3/4 bar and the remainder to a 2/2 bar. Do not forget to change the tempo of the 3/4 bar so that 3/4 equals 2/4 tempo-wise. E.g. you want to use a triple chord movment Dm7 up to Fm7 (Dm7, D#m7, Em7 >Fm7), the Dm7, D#m7, Em7 is the triplet, change that part of the bar to a 3/4 bar.

Good Luck!
Tonnie

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#150443 - 02/24/12 05:06 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
cressjl Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 671
Loc: Blue Ridge of Virginia
I fully agree with you, John. In fact, while composing a Christmas chorus in a contemporary Christian style I ran into this problem. I struggled with pushes, expanded styles, bar/tempo tweaking...just could not get there from here. I finally gave up on the chord progression and dropped the gloss altogether...sounded lame, too lame. I didn't perform the song; it sits on the shelf until next Christmas, maybe.

A lot of contemporary Christian music (following pop culture nowadays [whatever happened to pop culture borrowing from the church...sigh...?]) has very deliberate syncopated chord progression inserted at specific locations in the song for emphasis. It would be where a push would ordinarily be considered, but it's not a push. Its hard to describe; in fact, I would be hard pressed to point out an example by simply hearing it, but once attempting to implement it in BIAB, the problem becomes obvious.

About the chorus, I will probably ditch BIAB, switch over to RealBand (thank God for RealBand!), and head to my studio. I would have to admit that RealBand is becoming essential in producing my end products; BIAB alone isn't cutting it.

On the other hand, let me say that BIAB is still an absolutely amazing tool!

-----------------------------------------------
Wow, on a reread, I wonder why I would ditch BIAB, but still call it an amazing tool?! Using BIAB alone without having to use RealBand is what I mean. I also will have to record live to provide instrumentation that creates the glosses that I need. I was also responding to John Ford's post specifically, BTW.


Edited by cressjl (02/24/12 08:14 AM)
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