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#150429 - 02/16/12 06:05 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Cerio]
jford Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 7795
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago).




Wow, I completely missed (or forgot) this. I guess you really do learn something new every day.

Thanks, Peter!
_________________________
John

PC: HP, I5, Win10Pro (64-bit) 8GB, Dual 1TB 7200RPM
S/W: BB/RB, Sonar, Reaper, Notion, Finale, etc
Sounds: FastTrack Pro, NI Kontakt Ultimate, Casio Kbds, Halion Pro, Garritan, etc
Website: http://sus4chord.wix.com/genericband

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#150430 - 02/16/12 07:23 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
Matt Finley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 13208
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
First I've seen it, too.
_________________________
BIAB 2016 for Windows Audiophile, SONAR Platinum, Adobe Audition, Ozone, & Encore running on Windows 10 64-bit, i7. Hardware includes a Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20, TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch.

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#150431 - 02/16/12 08:43 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Matt Finley]
MitchC Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 08/19/11
Posts: 581
So we don't need to buy 'Notes' expanded styles ? Is that what I'm hearing ? Will definately check this out ! Thanks Peter !

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#150432 - 02/16/12 10:27 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: MitchC]
John Conley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
John, I do play, and use band in a box. I have played that tune. I realize Band in a Box does not hit every note the way some want. Neither do the musicians in the bands I play in. The example you gave does baffle me.

Are you telling me you want band in a box to play metronomically each piece, with every note on something like the page of a hymnal smacked just as written? That's my music notation software, I can even make it click to help counting.

If you make an mp3 out of the passage does it sound wrong? Who is bothered by it. I am trying to imagine a 'modern' church, my version of that ends about 1969, but there was an organ, a vibraphone, a piano and a 30 member choir. I was often on the piano. (the bench)

Now in that case the pianist stayed off the organ, and I tried my best to put in a fatter sound. Sometimes I was out for a bar or two.

I have no idea how big an issue this has become I guess. I see it all the time. It bothers this person, or that one. Now, I can assure you that in none of the hundreds of music books here, that I have never seen a tune where I need more than 4 chords. And if I did, it would be 3 seconds to get around it.

I drop notes all the time, and chords. In fact I was taught to drop a lot of tied notes, that's for breathing.
_________________________
John Conley
Musica est vita

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#150433 - 02/17/12 09:37 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: John Conley]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 7795
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
I don't want to argue - you asked for an example and I provided one. I can find more, but I doubt I'll spend the time doing that.

The song I posted is also played slowly, so that one chord matters. It's not a matter of having more than 4 chords per bar (generally), it's a matter of being able to have a chord on the off-beat and a new chord on the very next beat. I think Bob Norton posted a number of songs where that would be the case.

Sure, I can get around it...that's not the point. The point is that songs do have chord changes on the off beat and often resolve to the chord on the beat. I've seen it in a number of choir pieces right before they modulate to a new key.

I suspect that this what most people are asking for and would mostly be happy with.

Keep 4 chords, but maybe allow a "pull" (to delay a chord by half a beat), versus a "push", and I'll be a happy man.
_________________________
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PC: HP, I5, Win10Pro (64-bit) 8GB, Dual 1TB 7200RPM
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Sounds: FastTrack Pro, NI Kontakt Ultimate, Casio Kbds, Halion Pro, Garritan, etc
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#150434 - 02/17/12 11:11 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
Cerio Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 643
Loc: Spain
Quote:

The point is that songs do have chord changes on the off beat and often resolve to the chord on the beat.




Exactly


Quote:

Keep 4 chords, but maybe allow a "pull" (to delay a chord by half a beat), versus a "push", and I'll be a happy man.




Having more than 4 chords per bar would be a much better and easier solution, in my opinion: for example, you could very easily write custom 8th notes bass lines and arrangments, and you wouldn't be limited to the 4 chords per bar "resolution" when printing chord sheets, wich means that actually (to my knowledge) you can't print chords on the off beat (in fact, I write them by hand)


Edited by Cerio (02/17/12 12:10 PM)

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#150435 - 02/18/12 10:15 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3684
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Although PG Music did thankfully include a way to expand their MIDI styles a decade after I invented EXPANDED styles, I think you will find that the Norton Music EXPANDED styles will work much better than expanding any 'normal'. Why? They were written to be EXPANDED and to sound right when EXPANDED. Of course I'm biased, I wrote them myself. But you can judge for yourself by listening to the free EXPANDED mp3 demos at http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.html

No, you don't need to buy my styles, but you might want to. Almost all the people who do buy my styles come back for more. That's a good sign.

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150436 - 02/18/12 02:22 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
axeplayer Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 94
Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)




Thanks very much for this Peter, I was ready to splash out on a few of the Norton Expanded styles until I saw your post.

Thanks very much again for letting us know as I wasn't aware of this feature:)

Axey

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#150437 - 02/18/12 03:30 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
maiki Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 225
Peter,

Thanks a lot for the great product, which I first bought in the DOS version, before there was Windows. Also, I think it is great that you, the creator of BIAB and CEO of PGMusic, participate in these forums, interacting directly with users.

Regarding the problem under discussion, isn't it about time that this limitation of BIAB be fixed? One should not have to jump through hoops and do complicated workarounds to make it work, and it should work in RealTracks as well.

There have been so many complaints about this limitation for years. Wouldn't it be a good idea to work on fixing it as a major goal for now? (Hopefully in an update for BIAB 2012?) Every year there are now 1001 more Real Tracks, more features, etc., but I think that fixing a serious limitation like that would be more important than any of those.


Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)



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#150438 - 02/18/12 04:09 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: maiki]
maiki Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 225
It is not that it is common to have songs with eight chord changes per 4/4 bar, throughout the song. In fact, I cannot think of one.

However, it is not so uncommon that in a particular measure of the song, one might need more than four chords in that measure.

Passing chords, for example. On beat four of a song, there might be eighth note chord changes, two chords in that beat, followed by a new chord in beat 1 of the next measure.

Or, there could be an important part of a song, where there are quarter note triplets on beat three and four, a new chord for each (could also be considered passing chords), I. E. three chords evenly spaced over two beats. One should be able to do that without complex workarounds, and also with RealTracks.

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#150439 - 02/19/12 09:36 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
bjbear Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 13
I hope you didn't think I was arguing with you sir. I certainly am only trying to learn. Thank you for your help.

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#150440 - 02/19/12 10:40 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: maiki]
raymb1 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2247
Loc: Sterling, Va
One song would be "Sophisticated Lady". For the melody only, bars 2 and 4. Bar 2: Dbm7/Gb7, Cm7/F7, Bm7/E7, Bbm7/Eb7. Bar 4: Am7b5/D7b9, Abmb5/Db7b9, Gm7b5/C7b9, F#m7b5/B7b9. There are more subs than this example for those measures. Later, Ray


Edited by raymb1 (02/19/12 10:48 AM)
_________________________
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2016, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.

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#150441 - 02/20/12 05:46 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
babarton Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 285
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Quote:

Yes, as is pointed out above, you can achieve this effect by doubling the tempo (increase by 100%), and then reducing tempo by 50% on the next bar.

You can do this for any MIDI style, and all you need is an expanded version of the style.

You can easily make the expanded style, via a menu command in the StyleMaker (this was introduced about 3 years ago). This works for any MIDI style (not for RealTracks styles though)

For example, if you have MyStyle, and you want an expanded version of it:

1. Open the stylemaker (Ctrl-Shift-F9 or press the StyleMaker button
2. Choose Stylemaker Menu Option Style-Expand Style
- that's it, you then save the style as MyStyleX or whatever.

Then, on any bar that you want 8 chords,

1. change to MyStyleX
2. Increase tempo by 100%

on the next bar
1. Change style back to MyStyle
2. Decrease tempo by 50%

(this only works for MIDI style)





This looks like a good item to put in the "Tips and Tricks" Section (?)

Bruce

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#150442 - 02/21/12 02:02 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
tonnie Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 08/01/00
Posts: 249
Loc: Bergen, Norway
14/2/2010 I posted the following suggestionon how to enter 5 chords in one 4/4 bar.


Re: More than one chord change per beat? [Re: raymb1]
#262386 - 14/02/10 03:32 AM

If you want to add a quater note triplet chord movement, you can change that half of a 4/4 bar to a 3/4 bar and the remainder to a 2/2 bar. Do not forget to change the tempo of the 3/4 bar so that 3/4 equals 2/4 tempo-wise. E.g. you want to use a triple chord movment Dm7 up to Fm7 (Dm7, D#m7, Em7 >Fm7), the Dm7, D#m7, Em7 is the triplet, change that part of the bar to a 3/4 bar.

Good Luck!
Tonnie

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#150443 - 02/24/12 08:06 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: jford]
cressjl Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/03/00
Posts: 677
Loc: Blue Ridge of Virginia
I fully agree with you, John. In fact, while composing a Christmas chorus in a contemporary Christian style I ran into this problem. I struggled with pushes, expanded styles, bar/tempo tweaking...just could not get there from here. I finally gave up on the chord progression and dropped the gloss altogether...sounded lame, too lame. I didn't perform the song; it sits on the shelf until next Christmas, maybe.

A lot of contemporary Christian music (following pop culture nowadays [whatever happened to pop culture borrowing from the church...sigh...?]) has very deliberate syncopated chord progression inserted at specific locations in the song for emphasis. It would be where a push would ordinarily be considered, but it's not a push. Its hard to describe; in fact, I would be hard pressed to point out an example by simply hearing it, but once attempting to implement it in BIAB, the problem becomes obvious.

About the chorus, I will probably ditch BIAB, switch over to RealBand (thank God for RealBand!), and head to my studio. I would have to admit that RealBand is becoming essential in producing my end products; BIAB alone isn't cutting it.

On the other hand, let me say that BIAB is still an absolutely amazing tool!

-----------------------------------------------
Wow, on a reread, I wonder why I would ditch BIAB, but still call it an amazing tool?! Using BIAB alone without having to use RealBand is what I mean. I also will have to record live to provide instrumentation that creates the glosses that I need. I was also responding to John Ford's post specifically, BTW.


Edited by cressjl (02/24/12 11:14 AM)
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PG Music News
New Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac Video: Fake Sheet Mode, Repeats, 1st/2nd Endings, Codas, etc.

The final Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac New Features video is ready, and we've added demonstrations of importing/exporting Music XML, chord chart customization, and more!

Check it out: www.pgmusic.com/?vid=_eqADUKt71A

Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Windows Build 434 Update Available!

An update is available for Band-in-a-Box® Version 2016 for Windows.

Download the Band-in-a-Box 2016 Build 434 update (BETA) here.
This is considered to be a beta version because it is new.

Summary of changes for Build 434 (May 11, 2016):

Fixed: The [Options] button in the Repeats dialog would open the old Display Options window.
Fixed: The track buttons in the notation window would sometimes cause random messages to appear.
Fixed: The song title subgenres were not translated in localized versions.
Fixed: Edit | Lyrics | Copy Lyrics to Clipboard did not work with bar-based lyrics.
Fixed: Saving a scheme in Display Options might fail sometimes (error = "Failed to save scheme file").
Fixed: Rests & Pushes would not display in color while other chords in the same bar were being entered.
Fixed: N/A styles show in the StylePicker the first time it opens.
Fixed: In the What Add-ons do I have? dialog, RealTracks that only include RealDrums will be missing.
Fixed: When opening or importing a WAV file, and choosing "No" for the popup message "File is mono. Answer Yes to import as mono, or No to convert to stereo" would not convert the audio to stereo.
Fixed: When opening or importing a WAV file, and choosing "Cancel" for the popup message "File is mono. Answer Yes to import as mono, or No to convert to stereo" would not cancel the import.
Fixed: The track decibel offset saved in style files was not applying to UserTracks.

Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac Build 127 Update Available

We've released a Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac patch (build 127) that has a total of 60 updates, additions, and fixes!

Learn more about this free patch update (for 2016 customers) and download it here.

New Band-in-a-Box® for Mac Video - Fake Sheet Mode, Repeats, 1st/2nd Endings, Codas, etc.

Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac is the upgrade you have been waiting for... and it includes the NEW Fake Sheet Mode, Repeats, 1st/2nd Endings, Codas, etc. feature!

Check out our latest video, which shows you how to make repeats, DS al Coda, Fine, 1st/2nd endings, etc. in Band-in-a-Box® for Mac. You'll also see the difference between having Fake Sheet mode on or off. Watch this new video here: www.pgmusic.com/?vid=YzJuhAsGJ_k

Learn all about the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac: www.pgmusic.com/bbmac.new.htm

Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac - Bonus PAKs During the Month of May!

Purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac during the month of May comes and you'll get a Free Bonus PAK that includes:

1 Artist Video Performance:
-Jack Stafford Sax: Indiana

3 MIDI SuperTracks:
-Piano, Rhythm FolkySwing Sw 110
-Piano, Electric, Rhythm FunkSwing16 Sw16 085
-Piano, Rhythm CountryBentNoteJohn Sw 085

4 Instrumental Studies:
-Bass, Electric, Jazz Funk Poppy, Ev16 110
-Guitar, Acoustic, Folk, 2-part Fingerpicking, Sw16 085
-Guitar, Electric, Blues and Rock, Medium Rock Soloist, Ev 120
-Piano, Acoustic, Jazz and Bossa, Solo-Accompaniment Jazz Stride, Sw 085

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Plus, you can add a 49-PAK to your purchase for only $49! This is packed with 24 Bonus UNRELEASED RealTracks, 2 Artist Video Performances, 8 MIDI SuperTracks, 15 Instrumental Studies, and (for the first time ever) 3 "Artist Video Performances," which are video files that play in Band-in-a-Box®! Click here to learn more about the Bonus PAKs.

Visit www.pgmusic.com/bbmac.packages.htm to find the Band-in-a-Box® 2016 for Mac purchase for you.

RealBand 2016 for Windows: Build 6 Update Available

We have recently released the latest patch update for RealBand 2016 for Windows. This update can be downloaded here.

Summary of Changes for Version 2016 Build 6 (April 29, 2016)
Added: Dashed line at 0 db in the node editing area.
Added: Localization strings for recent changes such as Gain Nodes.
Added: Menu items in node popup to change the node type without using the combo box.
Added: Mouse wheel support to Piano Roll win.
Added: New Feature - Gain Nodes. These nodes allow for a db adjustment (-64 to +36db is the default range) for Audio tracks, or a CC 11 (expression) controller change level (0 to 127) for MIDI tracks.
Added: Setting in Audio Preferences to use smaller MME buffers if the song has gain nodes, to prevent stair-step clicking.
Added: Text that shows the upper and lower dB range when editing gain nodes.
Added: Two new song settings for avoiding the use of transposed files for RealTracks generation, and Ignoring slash roots except for Bass.
Added: Visual Transpose button text now turns red if the song is visually transposed to a different key.
Fixed: "Options.txt" showing up in favorite user tracks submenu.
Fixed: Cleanup nodes wasn't working correctly.
Fixed: Clicking and dragging on a track to highlight From/Thru now can't be done in the node area, since it was sometimes interfering with node entry.
Fixed: Extremely long lyrics in an .SEQ could cause an error.
Fixed: Import Wave dialog help button not connected.
Fixed: Language dialog didn't load correct language if Simplified Chinese .DLL was present.
Fixed: Note based lyrics were not loaded in when loading in an MGU.
Fixed: Potential access violation if there was a blank audio track but which had nodes or volume controllers in it.
Fixed: Some illegal characters in a track name were not replaced when dragging outside of RB.
Fixed: When loading in an XML file while the Format is set to French Canada, there would be an access violation if the file contained a number with a decimal point.
Fixed: Word wrap didn't work with the yellow Flash Message.

Band-in-a-Box 2016 for Windows: Build 433 Update Available

We have recently released the latest patch update for Band-in-a-Box 2016 for Windows. This update can be downloaded here.

Summary of Changes for Version 2016 Build 433 (April 29, 2016):
Fixed: The Help button in the Save XML File dialog did not work.
Fixed: Sometimes a part-marker might be changed unintentionally (eg. when double-clicking on a file in the File Open dialog, and the mouse is currently over a part marker).
Fixed: Edit | Insert Bar(s) would not shift Bar Lyrics or Section Text (layers).
Fixed: Edit | Delete Bar(s) would not shift Bar Lyrics or Section Text (layers).
Fixed: BB hard drive icon was pixelated.
Fixed: If a "Held" variation of a RealTrack is used in a song, then all the chords will change to the held color while generating, but not changed back after.
Fixed: Opening a new song would not always scroll to the top.
Fixed: CTRL+P in the Chordsheet would change a part marker instead of opening the Print Options window.

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