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#150444 - 02/24/12 06:50 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: cressjl]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3151
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I think BiaB is the best at what it does. Sometimes I swear it's magic.

However, I think BiaB needs a re-write. It needs one to work well with Win7 and beyond anyway.

I know PG Music is concerned about backwards compatibility with their songs and styles, and I applaud them for that, but if a style modification is necessary, a file conversion app would work. PG has done this once before and Microsoft has done this as well. They are MIDI enhancements as I love MIDI and it is the core of the program itself.

I've entered most of these in the wishlist:

In addition to allowing at least 2 chords per beat (8 chords per 4/4 measure) I suggest:

1) Resolution of at least 240ppq preferably user selected to 960ppq and this includes the StyleMaker

2) Support for multiple synths, at least 16

3) More than 5 instruments, 7 would be nice, more would be better

4) Variable length endings up to 8 or 12 bars selectable in the StyleMaker

5) Chord entry dialog box that would include check boxes (not radio buttons) for all the scale tones from root through 13 with another trio of radio buttons to the right of each scale tone to natural, flat or sharp that tone (natural being the default). That way you could do diminished triads, major 9 omit 3, minor 3 add 4, and any chord the user wants. We often run into chords in fake books than cannot be entered in BiaB.

6) Long and short rolls in the StyleMaker and a way to assign either to the playback grid

7) An option to switch sub-styles without adding a roll

8) A way to assign patterns in the style maker so that if one is chosen, complementary patterns would also be chosen. For example, if a drum roll with quarter note triplets was selected, a bass line with quarter note triplets could automatically also be chosen. Another example, if a drum roll with a rest on the 4th beat was chosen, patterns written to complement this drum roll with either a rest or held note on that same beat would be chosen.

9) Have the details that go into the Style Picker Window built into the style itself instead of an ls3 file and include a dialog box to enter the information

10) Long file names for the styles

11) Have the default volumes on all parts return after each song - so if a style changes the volume, it will return to the default when the song is done

12) Have the pitch bend, and continuous controllers return to a user set default after each song so if the previous style left them altered, the next song would return to the default

13) Add riff based patterns to the bass style

14) Fix the 2 and 1 beat styles so that a relative weight of 9 works on them. Right now if I do 4 different beats on the 1 beat row with a "fill" bar mask and a different note pattern for each beat, BiaB will mix them up when playing back (pattern for beat 1 might end up on beat 2, 3 or 4, etc.)

15) Increase the number of columns in the StyleMaker from 30 to 32, after all it is a multiple of 4 and 8 measures of single beat patterns would fit in there perfectly

16) Support for accelerando and ritardando with a resolution of at least one beat per tempo change (preferably more)

17) Native support for uncommon time signatures like 6/8, 5/4, 7/8, etc. without having to kludge a work-around in BiaB's grid.

18) A button that directs the user to Norton Music's Style Demo Page (hey! a guy can dream, can't he? <wink/grin>)

Many of these suggestions have been in place in my old pre Win95 copy of Master Tracks Pro (sequencer). If these things were standard in the 8.3 filename days, IMHO it's about time PG Music updated the core MIDI section of BiaB to include them.

MIDI can be just as expressive as the Real Track right out of the box (without further editing), but as long as the MIDI section of BiaB is stuck in the Windows 3.1 days it will stay the way it is. Right now, I have to export everything to a sequencer and take the very good output of BiaB and edit to turn it into something excellent.

Now I admit, I'm on the outside looking in so what seems possible to me may be terribly impractical in reality.
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150445 - 02/24/12 07:24 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11330
))) However, I think BiaB needs a re-write. It needs one to work well with Win7 and beyond anyway

FYI, Band-in-a-Box already works well with Windows 7 now, and also works with "beyond" (Windows 8 beta).
_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#150446 - 02/24/12 08:14 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
musiclover Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 706
Loc: Ireland
Quote:

))) However, I think BiaB needs a re-write. It needs one to work well with Win7 and beyond anyway

FYI, Band-in-a-Box already works well with Windows 7 now, and also works with "beyond" (Windows 8 beta).




I have to congratulate PGmusic and Peter for the fact that it doesn't write to the windows registry. How many backup images have people installed only to find out that they have to reinstall all the programs that weren't part of the backup image.

No such problem with band in a box.

Sometimes I am so glad that its PG that is developing and selling this program at a modest price, if it was other people who had developed it, we would no doubt be paying through the nose for it.

musiclover

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#150447 - 02/25/12 06:58 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: musiclover]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3151
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
That's good to know Peter. Thanks.

I'm still using XP but one of my machines is getting flaky so I'll be getting a Win7 laptop.

Since you don't write in the registry, could I just move the entire BiaB folder to the Programs folder of Win7?

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150448 - 02/25/12 09:59 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
Matt Finley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 10977
Loc: Mid-Hudson Valley, New York an...
Bob, don't put it Program Files (either one, if 64 bit OS) because of Windows permissions. Any other folder is fine.
_________________________
"Brazilian Wish" CD 2-minute preview. Studio recordings of songs composed in Band in a Box.

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#150449 - 02/26/12 12:16 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Matt Finley]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3151
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Thanks. So I can put it in C:\BB with no problem.

That's the problem with my ThinkPad computers, they last about 8 years before they start going weird on me so I get behind on a lot of software - of course that is a blessing as well!!!

The ThinkPad I bought years ago (it is still a pre-lenovo IBM machine and still says "Designed For XP" on it) didn't get past the splash screen about a month ago. Turned off and on again and it booted. Once could be a fluke so I watched but didn't worry about it. Then a week ago it did it again. I keep full backups via a Ghost Disk Image but that won't do me much good if I can't replace the HD, and it's probably old technology ATA not SATA or whatever the alphabet soup is.

So I ran the diagnostics on the motherboard and hard drive and everything passed (PC Doctor comes with ThinkPads). The HD was fragmented so I de-fragged, and it's booted every time since then. So I'll be keeping an eye on it. In the meantime I duplicated the most important data files on an external drive.

It's my secondary computer, so if it goes belly-up, I'll get a Win7 computer for my main workhorse, and demote the Lenovo ThinkPad I'm typing on now to do those secondary tasks.

It'd be nice to have a shiny new computer, but I keep them until they die. I'd rather spend the money on musical toys like guitars, saxophones, wind synthesizer modules, and so on.

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150450 - 02/26/12 03:12 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
martin57 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 72
Loc: Manchester UK
Go on Bob splah out on a few new windows 7 machines,
as according to this website you can well afford it!!

http://www.manta.com/g/mm0ym3d/robert-norton



Martin

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#150451 - 02/26/12 04:27 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: martin57]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3151
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

Go on Bob splah out on a few new windows 7 machines,
as according to this website you can well afford it!!

http://www.manta.com/g/mm0ym3d/robert-norton



Martin




Quote:
About:
Sophisticats in Fort Pierce, FL is a private company which is listed under entertainers. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $500,000 to $1 million and employs a staff of 1 to 4.


My response

I WISH !!!

If this was true, I'd have that mid 1960s King Super20 SilverSonic tenor sax with full pearls and gold leaf on the bell!!!

So c'mon pals, let's make this happen. Hire the Sophisticats for more money than the market down here will allow!!!
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150452 - 02/27/12 06:20 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
martin57 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 72
Loc: Manchester UK


You'll have to work a lot harder though Bob before you catch up with PGmusic.

From the same site

"Pg Music Inc is a private company categorized under Computer Services and located in Victoria, BC, Canada. Our records show it was established in 1989 and incorporated in . Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $2,330,880 and employs a staff of approximately 21. Companies like Pg Music Inc usually offer: Adaptive Software Development, Abc Computer Repair, Computer Software Development, Collaborative Software Development and Agile Software Development With Scrum.

Now back to budget how I am going to spend MY $350 per week meagre amount compared to you rich guys!!



Martin

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#150453 - 02/27/12 10:34 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: martin57]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11330
>>> It'd be nice to have a shiny new computer, but I keep them until they die. I'd rather spend the money on musical toys like guitars, saxophones, wind synthesizer modules, and so on.

Keeping your main PC until it 'dies', and making it a lower priority than musical 'toys' seems like a bad idea to me Bob. Don't you make your living from PC based music?

You point out in your messages that you have 'tried' audio, loops, RealTracks etc. but gave up. Most people that are getting great results with audio are using modern PC's. If you tried RealTracks on that old laptop, of course you'd have problems and annoyances, because that laptop has a tiny hard drive, slow CPU, low RAM, single core etc. etc.

If I was forced to use a 10 year old laptop, I might be saying "MIDI is great, audio sucks!" too...



_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#150454 - 02/27/12 12:48 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3151
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
<<Keeping your main PC until it 'dies', and making it a lower priority than musical 'toys' seems like a bad idea to me Bob. Don't you make your living from PC based music?>>

True, but perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough. I sometimes don't type exactly what I should in the way that is easy for everyone to understand - I'm too close to the subject

My main computer is much newer, multi-core Intel, and lots of RAM. It has made for Win7 on it, but Win7 was brand new then and ThinkPads gave me an option to boot either in Win7 or XP, so I chose XP because after the Vista problems, I wasn't about to try Win7 since it had no reputation yet. The trade magazines were saying it was much better than Vista, but when things are pretty new, the trades are often overly enthusiastic. Sometimes the cutting edge is the bleeding edge. I'd like to wait at least until the first service pack has been released before I go with a new OS.

So while I will keep this computer until it goes belly-up, it won't be my main computer for that long. By the time it's time to 'meet its maker' it will be demoted to a function that my iPod can do, simply play mp3 files. And all those mp3 files will be backed up in multiple places, including 'the cloud' to be sure that if something happens, I can still make my living playing music.

My computers go from main, then get demoted to secondary status, the things that are more play than work and apps that I don't want on my main work computer. After that they get demoted again to a mp3 player for my backing tracks on stage, and for the last years of their life, they get demoted as a backup computer on stage. With the average life of a ThinkPad to be 8 years, that gives me about 2 years of life as a main computer.

As far as being a mp3 player on stage, my 2002 ThinkPad will still do that just fine, but it started to develop horizontal lines on the screen when moving the lid, so I retired that one years ago. High quality and high bit-rate MP3 files played through a good MP3-Audio interface and then into a nice PA system doesn't take much processing power. I suppose my old Win98 computer would do that well if I still had it (stripped everything but the OS and gave it to a nephew).

I have a feeling it's time to buy another one and make the chain of demotions. But since the 'secondary' computer is giving me that kind of trouble, I might not demote it and take a chance since the stage computer and the stage computer backup are not giving me any problems at all. Perhaps I'll play with Linux on it, that could be fun.

So I'm looking on the Lenovo site and doing some research to make sure I will be getting what I need. Win7 has been out long enough and has proven itself. I may as well get it before the brand new Win8 comes out. I hate brand new OS's because they are often buggy until they get the second or third service pack.

And actually, my main source of income is as a gigging musician http://www.s-cats.com. The BiaB aftermarket line is my 'moonlighting' job ("daylighting"??). And I love it. It brings in enough so that during the slow summer season I don't have to travel to keep making the mortgage payments. And I must say I've become a bit dependent on the "extra" income it brings in. If I wasn't moonlighting on BiaB I'd be doing something else musical to keep me here in the summer (I love Florida summers). If BiaB was my primary source of income, I'd probably have 100 style disks and 100 fake disks out by now.

Besides, the age of the computer should not affect the sound of the Real Tracks anyway. Audio is audio, I use a USB-Audio interface and play them back through a small pro PA set, and I admit they sound great. The small PA system is my back-up system in case the one for gigging fails. Samson Mixer, BBE Sonic Maximizer, QSC Power Amp, 3 way speakers.

The only problem I have with Real Tracks, Fruity Loops and other pre-recorded audio software is that it doesn't give me the ability to edit the instruments as much as I like to. Say if I wanted to change a couple of notes in the middle of a guitar part to insert a song-specific lick, it would be difficult if I had a similar guitar, similar amp, similar FX, similar recording studio, similar playing style and darn near impossible without all those things.

Perhaps I'm a minority, but I like to play with my musical software tools. And I like to play with them a lot. Audio loops allow some playing, but mostly cut and paste. I can't customize them to express my own artistic ideas (for better or for worse).

So RTs are a feature I don't use. There are other BiaB features I don't use, and that's OK, others enjoy them. I don't use the melodist, soloist, lyrics, Juke Box, and a few others. I mainly use it because it is the best audio-accompaniment program currently out here (and has been for decades), I use the harmony feature a lot, the piano roll from time to time and although I don't use it as a notation editor (I have Encore) I do refer to the notation windows a lot.

To me the features I don't use are like stations on the radio dial I don't care to listen to. They are for other ears. The features in BiaB that are not for me, are enjoyed by other people, and that's fine with me. I like BiaB for the features that I use, and I use them quite a bit.

And I show BiaB to a lot of people and send them to pgmusic.com. I do one-nighters mostly for yacht clubs, country clubs, and the retirement communities here in Florida (best pay, shortest hours) and often the person who is now retired and wants to start playing music again comes up and wants to know about computer music. I keep a copy of BiaB on my stage computers, and after the show will give them a tour and send them to you. I never tell them about real vs. midi track or anything else, I leave it up to them to decide what they are going to use.

As long as you don't abandon the MIDI part, I'm a happy camper.
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150455 - 02/27/12 01:52 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 11330
>>> I can't customize them to express my own artistic ideas (for better or for worse).

Other people ** can ** customize them Bob. And I show you how in this video.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316518&an=0&page=2#Post316518

It's as simple as this
- if you want to replace a RealTracks part with a customized part, just cut out the part that you want to replace, and replace it with a MIDI part. Since MIDI instruments sound "real" (as you've pointed out to us), the result sounds great, as you can hear in the video demo.

- Before you reject this idea (and continue to tell others that it can't be done), have you ever tried it? I have, many times, and it works great. Other who have responded to the thread have reported similar results.
_________________________
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#150456 - 02/27/12 02:13 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
GHinCH Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 416
Loc: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
After the power supply unit quit on my old computer (600 MHz, 1 GB RAM) I invested a little money in what I have now:
an i7-2600k 64bit, 4-core processor with 8 threads, and (only) 8 GB RAM plus a gamer-motherboard with overclocking capabilities.

I won't use overclocking, but the other features make it interesting:
It uses the processors graphics -- hence no graphics adaptor needed, since I don't play such games. It is sufficient for TV and office and music software.
It may hold up to 32 GB memory.
It already has USB3 ports on board for fast connections with harddrives.

I will expand on RAM when 8-GB-chips are available at reasonable prices.


No, I won't go back to the old system. Even my previous laptop with 2.2 GHz and 4 GB RAM had the hiccoughs when using more than two RealTracks and four different chords per measure.

Guido
_________________________
BIAB 2014, build 384;
i7-2600k, 8 GB mem.

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#150457 - 02/27/12 05:10 PM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: PeterGannon]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3151
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

>>>
- if you want to replace a RealTracks part with a customized part, just cut out the part that you want to replace, and replace it with a MIDI part. Since MIDI instruments sound "real" (as you've pointed out to us), the result sounds great, as you can hear in the video demo.<...>




I watched/listened to the video demo and definitely understand how to do it. However, the MIDI bass sound did not match the tone of the RT bass. It was harder, had more edge and less bottom. It wasn't necessarily a bad bass, just a different bass. In that case I would find it acceptable for the audience, but the tone change would bug me. Could I live with that? I suppose. But if it were me, unless I had an acoustic bass that matched the tone of the RT bass much better than that, I'd probably re-record the entire bass part as a MIDI bass so I wouldn't get the tonal change. I could live with that easier. But that's just me I guess.

So, I can see how that is done, but I cannot see how my real sounding MIDI sax or guitar is going to have the same tone as the RT guitar or sax. After all, how many guitar tones are there? How many sax tones are there? Many more than bass tones. Do I want the guitar or sax to abruptly sound like a real but different player for those few notes?

Take sax, if my MIDI sax sounds Getz-ish and the RT sax sounds Brecker-ish, putting a few Getz-ish notes in the middle of a Brecker-ish part is not going to sound very good to my ears. What if I have a Getz-ish sax, Turrentine-ish sax, Clemmons-ish sax but not Brecker-ish sax? I'm still not going to get an acceptable match.

Or guitar, I have many different clean guitar sounds on my MIDI modules, but there are probably thousands of others that I don't have. What are the chances that from the dozens of guitar sounds on my modules one is going to be an exact match to the one on the RT, guitar model, pickup selection, tone controls, amp, fx. etc.?

And if I happen to have a great bass that works even better than the example, what are the chances my guitar, sax, piano and/or other instruments would work too?

I'm thinking that if I am going to punch in a few notes of any instrument part, and get it to sound very close to the instrument on the track that I'm doing the punch-in on, I should have a similar instrument, similar microphone, similar FX unit, and so on. This makes sense to my way of thinking.

I've been on a recording session where the singer came back the next day to punch in over a mistake. The same singer, same microphone, same vocal booth, but the engineer didn't have all the settings recorded (local recording studio). The punch in sounded weird, almost like a feminine version of the same singer so they tweaked and re-punched and tweaked and re-punched. They ended up re-doing the entire vocal track because they couldn't get it to match.

So if that can happen, how can I expect a match without the same instrument and recording chain as the RT player?

Am I over-analyzing this?

Personally I don't see how I can get an exact match, or one close enough for my ears.

If I'm wrong about this, please educate me. This would be a great tool in my musical took kit.

Thanks.
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#150458 - 02/28/12 05:59 AM Re: More than 4 chords per measure [Re: Notes Norton]
Cerio Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 489
Loc: Spain
Quote:

How many sax tones are there? Many more than bass tones.




I disagree. A professional bassist can get a lot of different sounds from the same instrument, let alone using different instruments, amps, etc. In fact, I think bass can be one of the most difficult instruments to recreate via MIDI:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb3QzDWJ7RU&feature=related



Quote:

Take sax, if my MIDI sax sounds Getz-ish and the RT sax sounds Brecker-ish, putting a few Getz-ish notes in the middle of a Brecker-ish part is not going to sound very good to my ears. What if I have a Getz-ish sax, Turrentine-ish sax, Clemmons-ish sax but not Brecker-ish sax? I'm still not going to get an acceptable match.




Do you know Celmony Melodyne? I think it's a killer combination with Realtracks, and could be what you're looking for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YEebBN2ok

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