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(*I did search for this topic, but did not find it previously addressed. If it has been, please point me to that thread.)
QUESTION: Do you guys peel back the instruments just to do your vocals sometimes? Maybe even use instruments for the vocal recording that would not be in your final mix.
This might be because of my bad hearing, I'm old as dirt, or a product of the way my home studio is set up with lower-end equipment (I do have a sound controlled room with no bounce-back, several mics and several headphone models I try).
To keep me too off key, I find that I need to sing against fewer instruments, that don't overwhelm my hearing/voice, like a light, consistent percussion for the beat like just side sticks or shakers, and keys with held cords, with a rhythm instrument(maybe guitar, but not anything solo) low enough so I can hear myself, but loud enough to keep me in the melody. Then I add the track to the DAW and add instruments to see what does and doesn't work.
The drawback for me is then the vocals sound lighter than the full version with all the true instruments added in.
How do you guys handle producing vocals? And my voice is not pristine and flute-like, so I can't have great expectations for it, but I wondered if there are any tips out there in BIABland.
Thanks for any input.
Andy
BIAB 2017 Ultra
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" Do you guys peel back the instruments just to do your vocals sometimes? Maybe even use instruments for the vocal recording that would not be in your final mix."
Yes. Some people do best with just a spare track with just drums, guitar and bass. The bass is important in keeping you in key.
"The drawback for me is then the vocals sound lighter than the full version with all the true instruments added in."
How do you guys handle producing vocals? And my voice is not pristine and flute-like, so I can't have great expectations for it, but I wondered if there are any tips out there in BIABland. "
When you say 'lighter', do you mean "thinner"? You can fatten the vocal up with some judicious compression.
Regards,
Bob
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Thank you, Bob.
I should have tried to be clearer. Example, for the past 3 months I've been trying to get a vocal track I can stand for an upbeat song I really like. When I pull the instruments back or thin them out (and leaving the bass in is a great suggestion), my voice sounds like I would normally perform a song. I'm a solo, mostly sparse fingerpicking guitarist, so there's not a lot to sing over. When I take that vocal track and plug in a drum kit and more rousing instruments, I sound like a mouse.
I think I have enough power to carry an upbeat song, but in the studio context, I'm having problems. Not a perfect example, take James Taylor's voice in "Sweet Baby James" or pretty much any of his early works, then stick it in a fuller band situation.
Andy
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And I don't know much about compression. I am learning, but I haven't found videos with comparable instructions on YouTube. They seem pointed more at rock-ier songs.
I should ask a local studio engineer for a few hands on lessons.
Andy
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Thank you, Bob.
I should have tried to be clearer. Example, for the past 3 months I've been trying to get a vocal track I can stand for an upbeat song I really like. When I pull the instruments back or thin them out (and leaving the bass in is a great suggestion), my voice sounds like I would normally perform a song. I'm a solo, mostly sparse fingerpicking guitarist, so there's not a lot to sing over. When I take that vocal track and plug in a drum kit and more rousing instruments, I sound like a mouse.
I think I have enough power to carry an upbeat song, but in the studio context, I'm having problems. Not a perfect example, take James Taylor's voice in "Sweet Baby James" or pretty much any of his early works, then stick it in a fuller band situation.
It would help if you could list your signal chain. (Mic, pre, effects.) You really need to understant compression and EQ though. What DAW are you using? Regards, Bob
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Puleeezzzzeeee. Just think as light of equipment as you can imagine.
I have a Beringer B-1 mic. I use a R16 Zoom recorder/interface. Dry.
No exterior effect units.
I leave BIAB dry), and (stop it...don't laugh...stop)DAW with MixPad.
I have other DAWs, but I'm not a tech guy and obviously not a mixing engineer. MixPad/WavePad are simpler, and I'm just learning about them. Certainly that could be part of the problem. I have the forward and pause down. Yes, I've watched the videos for the other DAWs, but they seem to jump from plug into power socket, right in the middle of mixing. It's beyond me. I find RB just as baffling. Even without the music side of things, it seems all I do, every day, is troubleshoot technology.
I apply reverb to all instrument tracks in MixPad. I can't get it right on vocals, though. They just become echo-y. And I'm just shooting in the dark for their settings, decay and diffuse, wet-dry. I don't have any reference point to begin with.
I've monkeyed around with EQ, so can do that a bit. I just started trying compression, high pass usually around 100hz, which seems to bring things into a reasonable level.
If I'm just to much of a beginner for you to even start with, no worries, I understand. But thanks for your comments and questions. Anything is helpful.
Andy
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Andy,
It may seem overwheliming at first, but once you get the hang of it it's very rewarding. You have BB2016, so you already have RealBand. It's a full-featured DAW with a ton of features.
Don't give up! There are a bunch of great people here who will help you, not to mention PG staff.
I have a lot of plugins, programs, etc. and I normally mix with only EQ, compression and reverb. The thing to remember is "less is more".
Have you played around with RealBand much yet? That's where I would start.
Regards,
Bob
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If I really need to nail notes, I will record a guide track of a more pure sound than my own voice. For example, I will record a synth lead melody that I can use to help guide me, otherwise I will sing flat - almost guaranteed.
There are the other tricks you might know about - add some reverb to your voice as you are recording it and feed that into your headphones, pull off one ear of the headphones and do the 'guide your voice from your mouth to your ear with a hand' trick. This helps you hear more than just your bone-conducted head voice, which for many people if they just hear that, will go a little flat (I do) while recording with headphones covering both ears.
For thickening, you can also try doubling either with a sung line timed just exactly like the first, or even whispering the line and turning the level way down of the doubled whispered track, but just enough to support the main track.
-Scott
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The Mac version of BB2016 does not include RB, as I recall. There are great tutorials on compressors on YouTube or recording sites. Fellow forumite, Mac, wrote a very comprehensive article on compression that I will find for you if you don't have success in finding your answers. I usually record a separate vocal track dry then do microsurgery in a DAW (Even Audacity (free)) does a nice job. Certainly RB would do fine. Basic compression guide: http://www.homestudiocenter.com/how-to-use-a-compressor-plus-10-top-tips/
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Thanks, Bob. Yeah I do have RB and gave it a run or two. And I don't recall where it derailed me, but there's was something I just couldn't get past, something simple. I should probably drill down into it. I know that the instruments sound better, slightly crisper when they are in BIAB and RB than when I put the tracks in MixPad. I will try RB with the next project, if I survive this one.
Scott, those are fantastic suggestions. Thank you very much. I'd used held keys for that, similarly, but the strike of the key was right when I needed to start the line, so sometimes it was hard to hear me at the same time. It's like I needed it syncopated with the held note a beat or a half beat before the lyric.
But a synth....great suggestion...something subtle and continuous...
I do a lot with the one headphone, or at least do a track that way, then with both, but reverb added is new, so I will add that...veeeery interesting.
Thanks, Don. I have a PC so RB is loaded and cobwebbed. Honestly, I'd looked at all the compression videos I could find. They just start beyond my knowledge, like somebody gives me road map for a winding 1000 mile journey, but the first 500 miles are missing.
(*I just looked at the link, Don. It is great! Thanks.)
Thanks, guys.
Last edited by Andy A - USA; 11/06/16 04:13 PM.
Andy
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Hi Andy, Check out this video on vocal compression using two compressors on your vocal. It's easy to follow using any stock compressor. http://therecordingrevolution.com/mixing-vocals-to-sit-upfront/Another easy alternative is to apply compression using a 4:1 ratio and set your threshold to max peak at 6db of gain reduction. That is easier to hear until you learn to hear it - then you can go lower ratios and lower gain reduction and start messing with attack and release times. It was a nice tip I picked up somewhere along the way. If anything's distracting, I'll turn it down while I'm singing. I like to keep the rhythm track especially drums up so I'm always where I want to be with the beat.
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THANKS?, Josie! I'll check out the link.
Andy
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Andy,
Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts in audio recording. You have to learn the basics, terminology, what a compressor does, etc. There are online courses, but this might be a better option:
"I should ask a local studio engineer for a few hands on lessons."
If you live in an area with some decent studios, that would be a great option. If you could find someone who is familiar with RealBand, that would be ideal. Hands-on is the best way to learn this stuff.
Regards,
Bob
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When I record vocals, the rest of the mix is generally done. In other words, I record and mix in the vocals last. There might be a few tweaks to the other instruments after the vocals go in but nothing major. I like singing to the finished, full band mix.
Your vocal should set comfortably in with the existing mix of instruments. Bob mentioned compression. You absolutely need to know how it works, what it does, and also learn to use it effectively and not to the point where it damages the mix by having too much compression.
Another "cure" for thin weak vocals is to use layering or doubling along with the proper levels of compression. That's possibly another thread in itself.
And don't forget to use compression and gain riding on the instruments. They need to pretty much maintain a relatively consistent level in the mix... especially the rhythm section.... bass, drums, and acoustic guitars...etc.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Join The Recording Revolution and you will learn a lot about recording. This is a free blog with videos on every aspect of recording. There just was a seven week tutorial on EQ and now there is one on compression. Graham's explanations start at a novices level and then works up. I have learned a ton of information from his blogs.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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A wealth of info. Thank you all. I did look at the info in the link Don and Josie supplied. It is helpful with understanding the premise of gain and high/low. I hope when I get somewhat dialed into my "style" it will create a range that works for me, XXb to YYb for this and 86% to 125% for that.
Doubling is a great idea! Thank you Herb and Scott.
Yes, Bob, I do wish I could find a local BIAB/RB expert. There are many studios here, most are small operations and I know some of the engineers/owners. I'll ask around.
I don't want to sound too weird(er), and it's not love, but I'm feeling something for all of you. So greatly appreciate the time you took and advice you gave. Lots of things for me to try.
Andy
BIAB 2017 Ultra
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Hi Andy, I'd like to share some resources I've found to be helpful. ++ Coursera - The Technology of Music Production ++ This is an introduction to music production. The online course is broken into 6 segments with each segment presented one a week. The course is FREE if you decide to audit the course instead of receiving certification. All the information (videos, script, pdf files, etc.) can be downloaded for offline review and future reference and it is well worth the time and effort to download. This course is a great place to begin learning about music production. Just having the information presented in a clear, concise and well thought out form makes absorbing the information much easier than trying to learn it haphazardly. The next session begins November 14. ++ The Art Of Music Production ++ A companion to the course above. This is a four week course with an emphasis on critical listening, arrangement and how to put a song together so it sounds interesting to everyone. ++ Play With Your Music ++ An online, course by New York and Steinhardt universities.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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This is perhaps only peripherally related... Janice likes to sing with a near finished mix. She sorta riffs off of the rhythm instruments, fills and solos. Meaning her phrasing often is significantly affected by what else is happening in the mix. We use Nectar 2 for vocal processing...mostly, as folks have mentioned, compression, eq and reverb with the occasional delay added. Nectar has wonderful presets, i.e., you select your vocal style and let it do its thing. Often no or only minimal tweaking is necessary for the preset. As others have mentioned a solid DAW and a few plug-ins can take you a long way. Of course you will eventually reach the point where like cow bell you can't have too much in the way of plug-ins.  Have fun on the journey. Bud
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Thank you, Jim and Bud. I feel like I see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Even just a little help is great. Baby steps. It seems to be a little more natural every day.
Andy
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Thank you, Jim and Bud. I feel like I see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Even just a little help is great. Baby steps. It seems to be a little more natural every day. This stuff is more addictive than heroin. And heroin eventually kills you; this stuff just makes you spend all of your money.  Regards, Bob
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EXACTLY!, Bob. I can hardly step away. I hardly actually play guitar anymore! Crack in a Box!
Andy
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SCOTT [rockstar_not]= If I really need to nail notes, I will record a guide track of a more pure sound than my own voice. For example, I will record a synth lead melody that I can use to help guide me, otherwise I will sing flat - almost guaranteed.
Scott!!!, adding a synth track has had great impact on less flats and more consistent vocal tracks. I'd tried may RTs, as simple and held as possible, but hadn't even considered that option.
I just brought raw voc tracks into my DAW and am amazed at the difference. I'm no flute, but all things being equal...my god...
Thanks to everyone, it's all appreciated. I'm goofing around with compression and I see why it is so important now.
Andy
BIAB 2017 Ultra
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SCOTT [rockstar_not]= If I really need to nail notes, I will record a guide track of a more pure sound than my own voice. For example, I will record a synth lead melody that I can use to help guide me, otherwise I will sing flat - almost guaranteed.
Scott!!!, adding a synth track has had great impact on less flats and more consistent vocal tracks. I'd tried may RTs, as simple and held as possible, but hadn't even considered that option.
I just brought raw voc tracks into my DAW and am amazed at the difference. I'm no flute, but all things being equal...my god...
Thanks to everyone, it's all appreciated. I'm goofing around with compression and I see why it is so important now. Glad that worked for you. It's a pretty simple thing, but effective. KISS
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Hi Andy Here's a simple explanation of compression. There are other bells and whistles but probably not essential yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpOZcaT3txMThis guy's videos are extremely well put together and easy to follow. I think I've listened to most of them now and learnt heaps. For the vocals consider autotune and doubling as I think has been mentioned previously.
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Yes definitely a good tutorial/training video. Only wish I'd had this about 15 years ago when I actually owned the same hardware compressor he's using. Could never figure out how to make it work properly so always had to use the inboard VS compressor on my 1880. Arggh! 
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Since you have RealBand; (This will work with pretty much any DAW though, probably even your Scarlett software)
RealBand has vocal presets..... just click on the presets until you find the one that is the closest to the sound you desire and click ok... Eventually, you will begin to tweak these presets to provide yourself even more precise vocal treatments. But don't wait to take a course or spend hours on YouTube. Pick a preset and go play some music and enjoy yourself.
Bob is correct to say that "This stuff is more addictive than heroin. And heroin eventually kills you; this stuff just makes you spend all of your money."
Music technology is exactly the same. It is too easy to get caught in the hype and cost of thinking better, more professional equipment will be the answer to a good recording. Not so.....
You have more than enough music products, software and equipment to make quality recordings.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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I've never had much of a singing voice, but if I'm careful I can get a decent track, and even stack harmonies. I don't put EQ or compression on the vocal tracks, although I almost always use a little ddl, and of course Reverb. In terms of building harmonies, keep a keyboard near at hand, and move through the notes of the chords one by one. Always be thinking, what would George Martin do?
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Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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