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Now that I have been working with Pro Tools, I have a question. Pro Tools REALLY likes 24 bit x 48000 samples. I don't know about other DAWs, but Pro Tools is what I am using now so that's really my only focus. Is there a reason to run 16 bit x 44100? Why isn't Real Band just set to output 24 bit x 48000 and be done with it? It seems like it doesn't make any discernible different in audio output, so why bother having options? Speaking again like a computer nerd, everything that can be chosen and set a certain way that is not universal to the world creates variables, and any computer programmer or mathematician will tell you that when you start introducing more variables you are also introducing more points of failure.
If both rates work, can't PG settle on one or the other? One of your hardware nerds please explain to me why there are choices. I know what 16 bits means as far as operating systems goes (16 bit vs 32 bit vs 64 bit word length for CPU instruction) but how does this all factor in with computerized music?
My main thing is that since the last "update" Pro Tools did it now hates anything that is not 24/48000 so I spent a few hours loading songs and converting them to the bitrate that Pro Tools wants. And now I have a headache. That included making new directories on my data drive so I can segregate what is what.
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And to answer a question some of you might be asking, "Why not just mix in Real Band", the plugins for Pro Tools are FAR less unstable and MUCH better than the free stuff I had for Real Band. The stuff that came with Pro Tools is really wide ranging and very good. And the stuff available through the Avid store alone is plentiful, and then consider what I can get from Sweetwater.... Steven Slate drums will be next.
Now, remember, this is also the THIRD computer in the studio. I tried to run it on a used HP with an i5 and 16gb of RAM, which is the stated minimums Avid sites for Pro Tools, but we all pretty much know how minimums work, right? So after buying that used for $275 and upgrading the RAM for $50 more, that just didn't help, so I bought a brand new Dell i7 and upgraded the RAM to 32gb. Adding it all up, I am now about $1600 into just hardware upgrades. Then Pro Tools cost me $600, and they get you for $100 a year for support. Perpetual license, but live support and updates costs money.
This brings home how good to users PG Music is with free support. While I like the DAW aspect of Pro Tools way better, I will continue to use my old trusty Real Band rather than have to have players come in. I mean, really? Have people? In my house??? They're the WORST! (The worst, Jerry!)
So it's still not an apples to apples thing. Nothing touches BIAB/RB for composing music. And very few even try. For a DAW though, that list of usual suspects all handle some things better. Sub grouping, data busing, plugin handling.... every one has a strength.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/06/16 01:31 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Eddie,
The short is the 44.100 Hz versus 48,000 Hz sample rate settings come from different industry standards, 44,100 from the recording industry and 48,000 from the movie / video industry.
16 bit versus 24 bit samples is due more because of technology advancement than anything else. The cost of memory storage has dramatically decreased while there is little to no difference in cost between 16 bit and 24 bit converter circuits.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Jim nailed the differences.
16/44.1k is CD quality. Using 24 bits for recording is acceptable since it gives headroom and mixes down to 16 rather nicely.
The movie industry set the standard to 48k.... no big deal.
Most good/professional level DAW's will let you record in whatever bit/sample rate you desire and move them to different rates as needed. It's always best to come down rather than to go up. It's easier to drop bits than to create them out of thin air..so to speak.
If you're working in the audio world, I'd suggest recording and mixing at 24/44.1k unless you are recording for film.
AND...BTW...I have a number of songs and cues being used by Hollywood TV shows and none of them were recorded to 48k. They are all recorded 24/44.1.
SO I think it matters not the settings like it may have years ago.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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))) If you're working in the audio world, I'd suggest recording and mixing at 24/44.1k
Have you noticed any issues converting Blab (or any) 16/44.1K audio to your DAW 24/44.1 ?
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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))) If you're working in the audio world, I'd suggest recording and mixing at 24/44.1k
Have you noticed any issues converting Blab (or any) 16/44.1K audio to your DAW 24/44.1 ? I haven't. SONAR upsamples to my default setting, 24-bit, 44.1 I know you are considering making an export setting but I'm not familiar with other DAWS enough to say it's necessary. As for the other comments, all look right to me. Another reason for using 48K is to burn to DVD (again, related to movie standards) but DVDs can be used for audio, too.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Dr. Gannon, Up-converting audio from 16 to 24 bit depth should not cause an issue because the only action that is taking place is placing eight zero digits to the least significant digit of each sample. However, recording at 24 bits versus 16 bits makes a substantial difference in how recorded audio will play back. Did you know that an audio sample only records signal voltage level? Software derives pitch and timbre from accumulated sample data. That means the more precise each signal voltage level is recorded, the better software can derive the recorded sound. 16 bit audio has 65,536 possible audio signal levels while 24 bit audio has 16,777,216 audio signal levels. When audio is up-converted from 16 to 24 bit depth the precision of the recording is still one level out of 65,536 levels. When audio is recorded at 24 bit depth the precision of the recording is one level out 16,777,216 levels. 24 bit depth gives software more than 256 times more data to use while mixing or adding effects. Many software DAWs mix tracks at 32, 48 or 64 bit depth to reduce errors induced by large numbers generated when mixing numerous tracks together. There is less rounding error or data lost when the original audio data is 24 bit. ++ HERE ++ is an excellent overview of both bit depth and sample rates and how they affect a music recording.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 12/06/16 03:29 PM. Reason: Added information
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Have you noticed any issues converting Blab (or any) 16/44.1K audio to your DAW 24/44.1 ? Here's the ugly rub right now. Pro Tools updated over the last few days. The new version locks up if I try to load a song that is anything but 24/48000. Thus I spent a good part of today loading songs back into RB to convert them to 24/48000. Avid did tell me they are aware of 3-4 distinct issues since their update and will patch soon. However, I wanted to work TODAY, not soon, so that is no consolation to me. In my mind that is like giving somebody a disease and saying "We'll give you the antidote soon. In the meantime, stay home from work for a week or so and your boss will just have to like it." The most annoying quirk is that if you minimize Pro Tools, you can't then maximize it. You have to go to task manager, kill the process, and restart. AND, just to sweeten my deal, my initial 90 days of free support has ended and I now have to buy a year long support package for $99. THAT part they can stick in their whole measure rest. But I have to have support, so..... But to your question, I have to do all my converting in RB and render the wav files out and import to Pro Tools, because Pro Tools crashes with anything but 24/48000.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/06/16 05:47 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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2. Send it to us.
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Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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I've written a few times in these forums the benefits of the additional 8 bits provides. The difference of moving to 24 bit from 16 bit results in a couple of advantages for the home recordist:
1. Technically, the 8 bits provide an additional 48 dB of SQNR, Signal to Quantization Noise Ratio. (6 dB for each bit). This means that noise due to quantization (going back and forth on the quietest 000000000000000000000000 to 000000000000000000000001) is 48 db quieter than with 16 bit 000000000000000 to 000000000000001. Adding up quiet spaces across multiple tracks is inherently quieter.
2. This points to another distinct advantage, in that because of this quieter quanitization noise per track, one can not worry so much about using all of the available digital word-width in a track. One can be rather cavalier about recording quietly per track, without having a bunch of summed noise once mixing. The benefit to us recordists is that we can get on with recording inspiration and not have to worry about using up most of the available dynamic range per track as we record. I've gotten much 'sloppier' as a technical recordist in my switch to 24 bit but able to record cleanly regardless, encouraging more experimentation and capture of 'moments'.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 12/06/16 07:11 PM.
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))) If you're working in the audio world, I'd suggest recording and mixing at 24/44.1k
Have you noticed any issues converting Blab (or any) 16/44.1K audio to your DAW 24/44.1 ? No. Because essentially, when I import them into Sonar, they are not converted in the importing process. They remain as they are, just like BB or RB exported them. However, when I set the DAW up for recording defaults... it is set to 24/44.1k.... that simply means all new recorded tracks such as vocals and live instruments will be recorded at those settings. It has nothing to do with any imported tracks. Unless they are specifically converted, they stay in the format they were originally in. If I had a track that was an mp3 and imported it, it would stay as an mp3. My reply, which you quoted, was simply good recording practice for the audio world in general. 24/44.1k is the best compromise for recording in most circumstances and can be converted in a good DAW to different rates if it is requested by the end user in a commercial project. You do want to be cautious about converting up, as I pointed out. It's doable but you're trying to create bits from thin air. It's always better to convert down. Since 16/44.1 is CD quality, I really don't see any need to do a conversion to 24/44.1k at all.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 12/07/16 03:11 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Eddie, I've been on Pro Tools a few months myself. It's been a little learning curve but I like it a lot as a DAW. As far as the crashing.... I've got a Focusrite interface and I usually have to set the interface to the sampling rate I'm going to use in Pro Tools or it crashes on open. Not sure if that could apply to your issue or not. This is regardless of if I have the Windows audio settings configured to allow other applications to control the Focusrite interface. In my case, I like to record/mix in 24 bit, 96 kHz. It may be a little overkill for audio but all my mixing and processing is done in that higher resolution and I don't worry about setting down to CD quality until the very end. My preference only. Others may totally disagree but that's OK. 
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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"The benefit to us recordists is that we can get on with recording inspiration and not have to worry about using up most of the available dynamic range per track as we record. I've gotten much 'sloppier' as a technical recordist in my switch to 24 bit but able to record cleanly regardless, encouraging more experimentation and capture of 'moments'."
I've not found the benefit of recording in 24 bit useful with the semi-pro/consumer grade hardware I use and my recording environment.
16/44.1 seems to be the ideal quality match for the gear. No need to dither in noise to my cleanly recorded audio's extra headroom I didn't use.
99% of my sloppiness comes from my playing when I'm experimenting, not my recording settings. I'm a better technical recordist than I am a technical player. Punch in/out is my friend.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Charlie, a lot of MY friends want to punch me out, too....
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Eddie, when that's the case, Karate should be your friend.
I prefer Justice -
aka my German Shepherd. They can't outrun her, and when she catches them, they can't out bite her.... ;=)
Her resolution is 24/96k... (you running at 24mph and her at 96mph)
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Charlie, glad the 16/44.1k is working well for you. On my equipment, I did notice a reduction in summed noise floor by moving to 24 bit from 16 bit, whereas I did not notice an improvement to higher sample rates. File size increase was minimal for the bit change but pretty huge when looking at doubling sample rate. I settled in to 24/44.1khz as a result and haven't looked back since. I did this back when my interface was a PreSonus Firebox. I haven't even bothered to check with my Focusrite 18i8; I just continued with 24/44.1khz. I'm not suffering for disc space, so I don't think I'll bother looking into it.
Edited for spelling
Last edited by rockstar_not; 12/07/16 09:01 AM.
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rockstar_not, I agree there is improvement in the recording quality and I think most serious recorders take advantage of this benefit to the point that 24/44.1 may be the most common mode now.
I've long been a sucker for thinking better equipment will improve my recordings but have always found the answer for me is not in the equipment or even the knowledge in operating the nuances of the equipment. 32 floating, 24 bit, 96k all fail me in that respect.
My intent is not to say there is fault in the thinking of higher bitrates and resolutions, nor to persuade anyone out of getting the best technical response from their equipment. I am at a good balance between equipment, environment and talent so there is no personal benefit to me. My MP3 quality is as good as anybody's, my music, maybe not so much.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Eddie, when that's the case, Karate should be your friend.
About 40 years ago, yes!! (Or I could be nicer NOW....) God forbid I would be stupid enough to try and use that old martial arts training now at age 65! I QUIT training at 18!!! (After 6 years.) Now I "shield" myself with an M&P Shield 9mm. Too old to outrun anything, much less Justice!!! Your dog is field trained for search and rescue, right? Now all that being said, I pray every day that i will NEVER have to defend myself, but this world is now way too crazy to NOT be prepared. Back to sampling, I am going to play with it again Thursday. After spending so much time sorting files, resampling, etc.... I need a day or two away from it. I have the RB songs on the root of the storage drive, and a folder for drivers, another for programs, now one for Pro Tools songs, and a "buffer" folder where I stick the individual tracks rendered from RB., So to follow the process, I have to load the RB song back into RB, resample it to 24/48000, render those tracks to individual wav files, move them to the buffer directory, from where I import them into a Pro Tools, file, then save that out to the F:\PT2448 folder, where Pro Tools stores everything in one folder, including the magic PTX file that is that Pro Tools version of a SEQ file in RB. For EVERY song that is in progress. (The old RB stuff that I am done with I will never touch again so I am just leaving them alone.) That was how I spent my Tuesday!
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/07/16 01:15 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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2. Send it to us.
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Eddie, I'm getting to the party a little late, but I'd be real surprised if Pro Tools' apparent love for 24/48K is anything more than a default template that you have set that is going into each new session you create. I'm not a regular user of Pro Tools but I remember seeing a screen for setting the session parameters for new sessions that let you do all of the typical bit depths and sample rates.
Keith
2024 Audiophile Windows 11 AMD RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,Cakewalk,Raven Mti
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Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
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