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RealBand
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I find that RealBand is just great for getting an initial feel for the music defined in a MIDI file. Microsoft GS Synth does quite a good job of rendering the sound prior to choosing more appropriate soft synths to render each channel.
CoyoteWT is is also OK but not quite as good as the Microsoft Wavetable (IMHO). I use SONAR TTS-1 to do the same thing and this is similar in quality to CoyoteWT. I do realise that these instruments would not be chosen for sound rendering in the final mix. However, the fact that all three can be used to give a quick and dirty assessment of the MIDI file makes them attractive to me.
Does anyone know of a better quality multi-timbral instrument that could replace CoyoteWT/TTS-1/Microsoft GS
Regards
John Lundrigan
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RealBand
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CoyoteWT is is also OK but not quite as good as the Microsoft Wavetable (IMHO). Actually, CoyoteWT is the same as the Microsoft Wavetable. Coyote merely wraps the MS Wavetable soundfile and presents it to your DAW as a DXi synth. The sounds are exactly the same with both; however, you can't directly render the MS Wavetable - you have to record it. So if you are hearing something different, then I would look at your sound card settings to see if its doing some processing of its own (such as bass boost or other equalization, compression, whatever). But both are exactly the same. The TTS-1, IMHO, sounds much better than CoyoteWT. The Coyote Forte has a different sound than the others (I won't say better or worse, as that is in the ear of the beholder). Another option, while somewhat dated, is a multi-timbral soundfont based VSTi and then you can load whatever GM soundfont you want. I've got a few; I'll try to take a look later this evening at which ones work well with BIAB/RB. You can also get the new Virtual Sound Canvas VA, but it's not cheap. It emulates a number of different synths.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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RealBand
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Joined: Nov 2016
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Thanks jford. Just goes to show what my musical ear is like. It's a good job this is just a hobby for me lol.
Regards
John
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RealBand
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,574
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Dec 2006
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If it makes you feel any better, Jonel, I was listening to a waves autotune demo and I could hear no difference between the guy singing slightly flat and the Autotuned version. It really upset me. I've sung as a chorister in Oxford UK, various choirs in Hong Kong, played etc etc. Now I'm wondering if everything I do is out of tune. Why didn't the choirs fire me etc etc. :-)
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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Joined: Nov 2016
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Thanks lambada for that information. It does make me a lot better. Sometimes I'm really disappointed with some demos where the demonstrator makes assumptions that the listener can really hear the nuances they are illustrating.
Regards
John
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Hi John,
What you are finding out is to get great sounding MIDI tracks you will need to invest money, learn how to set up each non-GM track (not very hard at all) and some time learning MIDI commands, called CCs. The learning curve for MIDI is not that steep. The problem comes in when you want better sounds and realize they cost money, i.e. from around $200 to $2,000 USD or higher!
Of the three GM softsynths you mentioned I would choose the TTS-1. I have used a few of those sounds in my songs. Also you have the SFZ player that came with BiaB and it will load both SFZ and soundfont (sf2) patches. You have to learn how to assign each track to one SFZ VSTi, SFZ can only play one sound at a time so you will need multiple SFZs-one for each track, but this will give you a lot of sound options, i.e. google/bing free soundfonts or free SFZ patches and you will find a ton of them.
After that you can get either the free SampleTank or Kontakt players. Each comes with a few selected sounds from their main programs. There are also a lot of free softsynths available,. Then it is on to spending money for better sounds.
IMHO GM softsynths can not compete with non-GM synths. None of my MIDI songs are all GM sounds as I have much better sounds. Some of my individual sounds use more memory that an entire GM will.
But just remember that all of us that have used MIDI over the years started out just like you are now.
Good luck, I hope this helped and didn't really confuse you. If it did just give a yell at what you did get and I will try to explain it better.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Joined: Jun 2005
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John, GM is very limited. Not only in sound quality but in choices of instruments. Do you think there is more than one type of electric bass sound? A fretless bass sound? Electric piano? Hammond organ? And OMG, guitars. Tons of different guitar sounds both clean, and distorted.
GM only gives you one or two of each of those. I use SampleTank 3. Full price for it is $349. I got it on their special sale last year for the price of one of their accessory controllers I spent $79 for. The full ST3 synth was free with that purchase. It has so many P basses, J basses, finger picking, flatwound, all kinds of other basses and that's just the electric ones. There's a ton of acoustic basses. Then there's the electric guitars. I'm not a guitarist but there's a whole list of different Humbucker LP, Humbucker 175, Str 1, Str 2 and more. Each of those categories has 10-15 patches in them with names like Clean, Boston, A. Lee, many more. I'm not a guitarist so I have no clue what those different things mean but I've auditioned a lot of those different guitars in some midi files and most sound very good. Quite different too.
Do you want one stupid GM distorted lead guitar or 30 to choose from? If you want to spend more for a specific guitar sound library you could get a hundred or more to choose from. For my money with ST3 I got a couple of thousand patches but wait, there's a whole lot more. I could spend easily $1,000 or more for extra sound libraries for ST3.
What you give up by not using GM is simplicity. A GM synth loads the entire soundbank into your RAM. This is easy because most of those soundbanks are usually less than 500mb. ST3 has I don't know but over 10 GIGS of individual instrument sounds. The difference is you pick a GM synth for Biab or a DAW like Real Band, Sonar, whatever and all the parts simply play. Use ST3, Kontakt or whatever other high end synth and you have to manually pick each sound for each part which takes some time.
This is why most of us will use a basic GM synth to audition a midi file to determine if it's good enough to really spend some time on. If it is then load up the good stuff and go to work.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Thanks MarioD for your very useful advice. A agree that good sounds cost a lot. I have heavily invested in Komplete and a range of other sounds also.
But my main requirement here is when working with my extensive range of MIDI files. I wanted to get something sounding great as soon as I load it and then selecting perhaps more appropriate sounds for the tracks of the MIDI song. I very rarely keep the original GM instrument assigned for TTS-1 or CoyoteWT although some are really quite good.
Regards
John
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Hi Bob,
Your reply is much appreciated and I agree with you wholeheartedly. What TTS-1 and CoyoteWT give me is a quick way to assess the music from the tracks of my large library of midi files with no overhead in terms of configuration of RealBand.
In fact I can go on to process/extend/rearrange the tracks of the midi while in RealBand before moving the song on to either SONAR or Ableton. In this final DAW I can then choose instrumentation from Komplete or create instruments from a range of clips in Ableton. (I also find MIDI easier to manipulate in these two DAWs as well (but then I have not given my self much time to play with the MIDI editor in RealBand so I don't want to criticise this RealBand feature).
Regards
John
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All 3 of the synths named.... Wavetable, Coyote, and TTS are lower quality sounding synths. I also agree that Wavetable is the lowest one of the bunch, with TTS being slightly better. The best, more professioal sounds start with the sampled synths in the general vicinity of the Kontakt player (in the price range of a few hundred dollars and go up from there)
Most of the better sounding synths, Kontakt, E/W, CW Sound Center, are mono sample playing instruments. I think you will find that to be the case with most all of the better ones. Since the samples they load and use are fairly large in size, it makes sense that they only support one instrument at a time. You can however, always load multiple instances of that particular synth up to the capabilities of your computer when it starts to choke.
Back to TTS and it's elementary sounds. It was many years ago that someone came into one of the forums on the Cakewalk forms and posted a classical orchestral production that they claimed the following about:
1. Every instrument was moused in, one note at a time.
2. Every instrument track was one of dozens of TTS tracks
3. There were several instances of TTS in the project and most of them were running a full sixteen channels of different instruments
4. The project took i excess of 6 months of continuous work to complete.
Having said all that, the project sounded phenomenal. It was a full on orchestra, horns, strings, percussion, etc.... One would have never guess it was done completely in TTS. It's not so much the synth and the patches as it is the composer and his use of the synth that makes the difference.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I find that most interesting Guitarhacker.
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Joined: Apr 2013
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Following Guitarhacker's line - Check out the midi files of DW Barnes. Beatle songs especially. As an example, import the DW Barnes programed midi file of "Oh Darling.mid" The midi file has more parts and complex arrangement than BIAB can play. It will still sound very good though... Read about DW Barnes and how he programs midi at his web page HERE . He uses a similar programming method as Herb describes. Charlie
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 01/16/17 04:53 AM.
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Thank you Charlie. Looks like a good resource.
Regards
John
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
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Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
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If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
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Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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