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#389732 - 01/11/17 08:55 PM [RealBand] RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you!
hughrheinsohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 7
Loc: Portland, OR
I'm using RealBand2017 on Windows 10.

I created a song in BIAB2017 and then opened it in RealBand.

I then spent 5+ hours adding new RealTracks and editing those tracks in various ways (editing individual tracks, volume changes, fades, FX changes, and so on) until I had it tweaked just the way I wanted.

As I am going along, I save multiple copies of the file, so in case the program crashes, I have a backup point to start up again from without losing all my work.

When you save a RealBand file like this (as an *.SGU file), you get a prompt that if you have added any audio you have recorded yourself, you should save the file as a *.SEQ file. Well, I had not recorded any original audio - every bit of audio in my file was generated by RealBand. No original audio at all. BUT - of course - the warning message is WRONG. *.SGU files seem to save absolutely nothing that you do in RealBand. It's just the original BIAB file with no changes, regardless of whatever work you've done in RealBand.

Why RealBand even allows you to save a file as a *.SGU file is a mystery, since it seems to have ZERO VALUE TO DO SO.

DO NOT EVER SAVE REALBAND FILES AS *.SGU FILES. YOU WILL BE WASTING YOUR TIME.

ALWAYS SAVE REALBAND FILES AS *.SEQ FILES.

Another example of the incredible poor design and UX for this product. It has amazing capabilities and there's nothing like it on the market that I'm aware of, but it's very frustrating to use because of the hundreds of things like this. Indicative of lousy design practices and poor product management. A shame really.

Anyway, saving RealBand files in the *.SGU format, which is the default format, is WORTHLESS.
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#389775 - 01/12/17 03:43 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1055
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Umm, must be some setting somewhere Hugh. All of my RB files automatically save to SEQ files. One tip, when you do save, initially save the file using "Save AS...". This seems to capture all of my tracks and settings, regardless if they are midi, RealTracks or audio. After that initial "Save AS", I can just use the normal "Save" and any further changes are also saved. But in any case, they are all saved as SEQ files.

Jeff
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#389782 - 01/12/17 05:28 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13718
Loc: Australia
Hugh,

I hear your frustration.

The BIAB SGU/MGU format that Realband uses is a two way street that allows transfer of files back and forth between BIAB and Realband. For this reason, this file format only relates to the blue BIAB tracks found at the top of the Realband tracks (since BIAB only has 7 instrumental tracks). Any normal Realband tracks are not saved in the SGU format.

If you open "Preferences" and go to the "File" tab, there's an option at the bottom of the settings window to set SEQ as the default format.

Regards,
Noel
_________________________
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#389789 - 01/12/17 05:47 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5842
SAVE AS : SEQ....

Then, you can save periodically as you work with a simple mouse click.

It's a learning process. Thanks for pointing that out so the new users can benefit from your misfortune and not repeat that mistake themselves.

We tend to remember things when we make mistakes like that.

Been there, done that, and not just once.
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#389798 - 01/12/17 06:43 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: Guitarhacker]
hughrheinsohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 7
Loc: Portland, OR
Thanks all!

Found the Options/Preferences/File "Default to *.SEQ format when saving a file" setting and have done that.

I understand about the two way street idea with BIAB, although since no changes you make in RB seem to be saved in the *.SGU file format, I still question the need to even support that format for saving files in RB.

The warning message that comes up when you attempt to save an RB file in the *.SGU format is beyond misleading - it's downright wrong. This seems especially strange since it's such a verbose warning. (I like verbose warnings, but only if they contain correct information.)

An expensive mistake leading to a valuable lesson: Never assume that warning messages in BIAB/RB are telling you the truth and always test everything before investing a lot of time in a production.

Thanks again everyone!
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#389809 - 01/12/17 07:19 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
VideoTrack Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8387
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Sorry to hear of your dilemma Hugh, but there is definitely a reason that RB material can be saved in SGU format.

As a simple example, RealBand allows you to edit tracks much more flexibly than BiaB does. You can take a song into RB, edit the required bars, then import it back into BiaB. If RB only saved as .SEQ files, this would not be possible.

Hope it's smooth sailing from now on.
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#389844 - 01/12/17 10:14 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10692
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:
since no changes you make in RB seem to be saved in the *.SGU file format


I've been burned by this before, and always immediately save to SEQ as soon as I open a file.

But just wanted to explain this. If you open RB, enter a chord chard, select a style and tempo, you can then save as SGU, which you can open in BIAB (which will show the same style, same tempo, and same chord chart). You'll have to regenerate the song to hear it, but this is required, as BIAB does not open a SEQ file.
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#389982 - 01/13/17 12:34 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6592
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: hughrheinsohn
Anyway, saving RealBand files in the *.SGU format, which is the default format, is WORTHLESS.


Wrong. Sorry.

First, all of us including me have screwed up in saving stuff. Hell, I've even wiped out the wrong vocal track because my eyes were going crosseyed and I wasn't paying attention either. Luckily I had the vocal saved as it's own wav file so I was able to import it back in but that was a bonehead move on my part because I still lost a bunch of current edits I had just done.

Consider this: You've spent 5 hours with Biab testing out different styles, different RT's whatever then decide to move it to RB. You save it to the default .SEQ. What did you just do? YOU JUST WIPED OUT THE BIAB FILE. IT'S GONE.

And as already mentioned RB will open a SGU file but Biab will NOT open an SEQ file so it's gone, baby.

There are many reasons I won't go into here why you would want to keep that Biab file as well as the new SEQ.

All I can say in a friendly way is pay attention, read the manual and stop with the ranting about "incredible poor design" and all that. DAW's are complicated and the manuals are hundreds of pages because everybody wants every possible choice there is for everything.

This is simply one of many choices you need to pay attention to. There's a multipage thread from last summer debating both sides of this exact issue. Some want the default one way, some the other so now you can set it yourself. This was just implemented last month.

Bob

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#390003 - 01/13/17 04:30 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: jazzmammal]
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5842
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Originally Posted By: hughrheinsohn
Anyway, saving RealBand files in the *.SGU format, which is the default format, is WORTHLESS.


Wrong. Sorry.

First, all of us including me have screwed up in saving stuff. Hell, I've even wiped out the wrong vocal track because my eyes were going crosseyed and I wasn't paying attention either. Luckily I had the vocal saved as it's own wav file so I was able to import it back in but that was a bonehead move on my part because I still lost a bunch of current edits I had just done.

Consider this: You've spent 5 hours with Biab testing out different styles, different RT's whatever then decide to move it to RB. You save it to the default .SEQ. What did you just do? YOU JUST WIPED OUT THE BIAB FILE. IT'S GONE.

And as already mentioned RB will open a SGU file but Biab will NOT open an SEQ file so it's gone, baby.

There are many reasons I won't go into here why you would want to keep that Biab file as well as the new SEQ.

All I can say in a friendly way is pay attention, read the manual and stop with the ranting about "incredible poor design" and all that. DAW's are complicated and the manuals are hundreds of pages because everybody wants every possible choice there is for everything.

This is simply one of many choices you need to pay attention to. There's a multipage thread from last summer debating both sides of this exact issue. Some want the default one way, some the other so now you can set it yourself. This was just implemented last month.

Bob



Yes... Absolutely. I have done that very thing. Needed to go back to BB to make some edits to structure... and could not find the file and had to rebuild it from scratch since I saved it as SEQ.

Yes... save it in BB but then create a new SEQ file in RB using the save as so you have both versions.


And yeah... I also, have deleted the wrong audio track more than once. As you get to know your DAW and how it works, and where it saves things that you delete.... nothing is ever really deleted in a DAW unless you really know how to remove the file....but yeah it's still a pain to recover those mistaken deletes.


Edited by Guitarhacker (01/13/17 04:33 AM)
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#390006 - 01/13/17 04:44 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4597
Loc: South Carolina
Hugh Heinsohn, I suggest you check a RB subfolder RBBackup located in your RealBand folder. Files there are saved as .bks - so you could alternately do a search for *.bks to locate files.

.bks files are backup project files. I occasionally go there to delete old project backups because some of the backups are very large and I free up disk space.

I'm not sure at what point a .bks file originates, but there is the chance you may have a backup if there is an autosave feature in RB.

Here is what HELP says about backups:
When the "Create backup file when overwriting a SEQ file" setting is enabled in the File preferences, RealBand will always create a backup file (BKS file) when a .SEQ file is overwritten.

Use this command to open a backup file with a previous version of a .SEQ file.
File - Open Special - Open Backup File


Good luck.

Charlie



Edited by Charlie Fogle (01/13/17 04:59 AM)
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#390165 - 01/13/17 05:38 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18968
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
The 'Backup file' option requires that he had saved once as a SEQ file, which apparently he didn't (since it is not the default and often misunderstood).

As far as the which is better argument goes; if RB saves as a SEQ file natively your BiaB is not totally lost .. even if you had done work on it. Open the SEQ file in RB and Save As a sgu .. whatever info RB has that CAN be put into sgu will be.
If it can't save certain data, I don't think you could have saved it back to BiaB in the first place.

There is really only one way data can be 'totally lost' here and that is when SEQ is not the default.
If I save a BB file as an SEQ file in RB I have a lot better chance of salvaging the SGU later (from the SEQ) than ever recovering the SEQ (from the sgu) file if it goes the other way.

/edit
Why would you ever want to go back to BiaB after moving things to RB?
that's a really rare occasion here


Edited by rharv (01/13/17 05:44 PM)
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#390554 - 01/15/17 01:37 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
CountryTrash Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 375
Loc: Benoni, South Africa
Been there , done that ...

When I HAVE to save as .SGU from RB i started to add a "_RB" suffix to the filename. That way I know where it came from....

(Works for simple old me)

I realise it creates a "duplicate" but at least I know I still have the original...
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#390559 - 01/15/17 01:46 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: CountryTrash]
VideoTrack Online   content
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Nothing wrong with that approach. I do something similar. Provides a method to go back if ever required.
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#390951 - 01/17/17 02:28 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
jford Offline
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Loc: Pensacola, Florida
SGU files take up very little disc space, so having multiples isn't that big a deal, space-wise.
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#391021 - 01/18/17 04:42 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: jford]
VideoTrack Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8387
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: jford
SGU files take up very little disc space, so having multiples isn't that big a deal, space-wise.

Good point made by John. The SGU, MGU etc file is essentially a pre-programmed template pattern of the required song content. The actually audio data is of course in the RealTracks and RealDrums that are referenced by the pattern. The storage space of the BiaB files is therefore very small compared to the audio output that it produces.
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#391073 - 01/18/17 10:13 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
Andrew - PG Music Offline
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Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 3782
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The warning message could definitely be better. We will change that, and perhaps it should be a message that you need to click OK on.
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#391087 - 01/18/17 02:05 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10692
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
I have learned from experience.

Open a file in RealBand or PowerTracks that I want to save, then save it right away as a SEQ file (look at the file type when saving).

Once a SEQ file, it will always save as a SEQ file unless you tell it to save as something else.

If you want to save anything on a track; anything to do with effects; any audio content that you want to work with later, save it as a SEQ file.

It's great that you can save certain parts of your SEQ file as a different format, but only the SEQ file will give you everything. Start there, and you should have no problem with losing any content upon re-opening the file. Oh, and save often.

To me, SEQ file = RealBand/Powertracks. The other formats are just capabilities within for when you need it (save to a MIDI, which will only give you the MIDI data; save to SGU/MGU, which will give you the chords and style, along with maybe a melody track, but little else; save to WAV will only give you a single WAV file that can't be split out again).

Oh, and did I say, save often! smile
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#391092 - 01/18/17 03:28 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: Andrew - PG Music]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4134
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Originally Posted By: Andrew - PG Music
The warning message could definitely be better. We will change that, and perhaps it should be a message that you need to click OK on.


Andrew,

Changing the message wording and adding an "OK" acknowledgement would be a big help.

Thanks for offering.
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#441422 - 11/28/17 08:59 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
Teunis Online   content
Apprentice

Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 291
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Thanks you may have answered my question. When trying to save as SGU or MGU I crash and get an I/O error. Saving as SEQ is fine.
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#441549 - 11/29/17 01:56 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand2017: I just lost 5 hours of hard work - here's why - don't let this happen to you! [Re: hughrheinsohn]
Jeff Yankauer Offline
PG Music Developer

Registered: 06/02/00
Posts: 1376
The I/O error in BBW2.EXE (when saving to MGU/SGU) should not occur in RealBand 2018. (The error was in BBW2.EXE and not RealBand.exe) Also, RB 2018 will now default to saving as .SEQ unless the checkbox in the File Preferences is manually unchecked. Thanks.
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