|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,076
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,076 |
A few days ago Janice and I were looking for some old photos and ran across some of our contracts from our bluegrass band gig days. That caused me to reflect on the prices over the years - relative only to my experience.
In the 60's while in college myself and another guy booked (and recorded) talented garage bands...mostly to frat houses and small clubs. Typical amount was $200-$300.
In the 70's I played in several bluegrass bands and we booked clubs and various events for $300-$500.
In the 80's, 90's and very early 2000's Janice and I played in a couple of BG bands that worked regularly (too regularly for our tastes) for yep $300-$500 (three sets) with the only exception being weekend long festivals.
In what other situation would payment for services have remained so constant over 35 years? Anybody have similar experiences?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326 |
You are correct. In real dollars, the compensation has actually declined over time. When you factor inflation, it's a mighty grim picture for musicians. Anyone playing today is playing for less than those of us who were gigging 30 years ago. Compare the price of gas, motel rooms, vehicles, gear, meals, and living expenses back then to now. Everything has risen but the wages for a band remain the same essentially. We could book motel rooms for $25 a night or $35 at the Holiday Inn.... try to find decent room now for under $90. You could hit a nice restaurant and get a decent (not fast food) meal for around or under $5. That same meal today is closer to $20 if not more.
Who's to blame? The clubs for exploiting the bands? The musicians themselves for undercutting each other and undervaluing their music? The perception of the people for thinking music is supposed to be cheap or free and not being willing to pay to see live bands? Solo guys with backing tracks on a computer who will work cheaper than a 4 piece band?
or.... all of the above?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,076
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,076 |
Good analysis. Fortunately other than in the 60's I was doing it for what I thought was "the art."  I had convinced myself that playing in a five piece band for peanuts was worth it as we were spreading the bluegrass love. Throughout most of the years Janice and I played I had a "had to be there" high pressure career as a hospital administrator. Janice also worked in the same field. So we'd wipe out our weekend playing a frat somewhere or a bank opening or wedding reception and imagining it was worth it. We didn't need the money but I demanded the most we could get. I remember telling one big buck guy who wanted us for a wedding reception that maybe he should figure out what it would cost to get five plumbers come to his lake house on the weekend and stay for five hours including a 200 mile roundtrip drive. I'm sure he paid a helluva lot more for food than our $500. Gimme BiaB any day of the week! It's more fun and we stay on the homestead. Bud
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302 |
Who's to blame? The clubs for exploiting the bands? The musicians themselves for undercutting each other and undervaluing their music? The perception of the people for thinking music is supposed to be cheap or free and not being willing to pay to see live bands? Solo guys with backing tracks on a computer who will work cheaper than a 4 piece band?
or.... all of the above? I go with all of the above. People are eager to just play ANYWHERE. I saw an event on The Book of Face for a girl playing in a neighborhood bakery!! "I'll take a dozen oatmeal raisin and do you know I Fall To Pieces?"
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326 |
Well, back in the day, I was in several working bands. Most of those were weekend warrior bands. One of them was a full time working band. We didn't cut prices to try to get gigs, in fact we went in the other direction. Yeah we did a number of cheap or free gigs on Wed nights when we were getting started, to get in the door of clubs that had big paydays and only booked the top bands. One "free audition" we played was at a club that booked only the regional level bands. The deal was we played one set and if he liked us, he'd book us, if not we went home with nothing. At the end of the set, the place was packed and the crowd was having a good time. The manager told us we'd get several bookings and if we wanted to, we could play another set and he'd pay us the door take. We looked at the crowd and said heck yes. It was a good payday for a "free audition" on a Wednesday night.
We were a 3 piece band and were charging the same thing as bands with 5 and 6 members in the same clubs. We got it too. In addition to that, we were also the highest paid band in the military club system at the time. Our 3 piece band was making bigger paychecks than bands with twice the members on stage. One reason.... we were the favored band by the club managers and the audience reaction was always outstanding. We could load in and out in short order, something the managers liked at closing time, we started on time and kept our breaks to the contracted limits, and we were flexible in our dealings with the clubs.
We had many clubs balk at our asking price for a weekend. They'd counter with something like..... our best band only gets $X.00 for the weekend. Sometimes we could reach a deal and other times not. Often we'd play the first weekend at or closer to their comfort zone price.... one time. We played one of our first gigs as a band, at a club we had booked as a 4 piece band. Our singer/guitarist never showed up. We played the gig as a 3 piece band and brought the house down. The manager tried to short us based on math. We stood firm and he paid the full price. We re-booked that gig and played there several more times with no issues over money.
We were all full time musicians. We played normally 4 to 6 nights a week. Weeknights were generally less money but weekends were full price. We did pretty good. I was the booking agent and stayed busy keeping our band working. The drummer and bass player handled the PR stuff and collecting the money at the gigs. We all had our specialty.
Times have changed. Yep... I have "musical event dates" come across my FB page all the time.... singer playing at a seafood restaurant.... singer playing at a pizza joint..... I know that's not a high paying gig.... probably $50 and a meal.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,076
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,076 |
Cool story. It reminds me of a band I was managing/booking and traveling with during an "out of college for the summer" time - the mid 60's. The gig was the Old Dutch club in Panama City, Florida. Played five nights a week and on just about every Sunday the owner would audition a band...if he liked them more they got the current band's job at the end of their contract (usually two weeks). But, hey, we got the gig that way so we knew what to expect. They had "quarters" for the band in the basement and the previous tenants got POed when they lost the gig and let their dog poop all over the two rooms. Seems grim at the moment but when you're 20 and have a two week beach gig it was a very small inconvenience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
There ain't no money in playing music. Never was. Never will be.
Regards,
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,687 |
Pay was bad 30 years ago and it's beyond bad now.
Just MHO, it's due to gazillions of players like all of us here being lured into gigging for fun, exposure and of course, chicks. I'm sure this was true in the 20's but now we have (pick a number) untold thousands of kids getting music degrees either performing degrees or production degrees or both.
Here is LA we have an NPR station called KKJZ that's all jazz during the week but they have a great blues show on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. Part of that show is called the Indie Hour where the DJ showcases one or two bands. These recordings are absolutely first class and so is the playing. My only problem with it is there is no original sound. It's all guitar based and everybody sounds exactly like (name your favorite blues/rock guy) from Clapton to SRV to Alvin Lee to BB King you name it. They have all the licks and character of the sound absolutely perfect. And they're all technical monsters. I listen to this show every week and over the years I've heard probably several hundred of these bands and they're all killers. Back in the day any one of these players would have had a shot at making it IF they were the first ones to create that sound and those licks.
The problem is they're not the first ones. They're like all the rest of us growing up listening to the original artists so we all sound just like them. that's true for me on keys and it's true for all you guitar pickers. That's ok for cover band gigs, but that's it.
Multiply this by 99 thousand/million/GAZILLION cover band players all over the world and that's the reason nobody is making any money.
It's supply and demand. A person would have problems getting five plumbers to drive 200 miles but there's no problem at all getting oh lets say 20 decent bands to do it. And, I would be willing to bet there are more than 20 good bands within 200 miles in a rural area, it's probably 100 or so. Here in SoCal I would not be surprised if that number is more like 10,000. I'm not kidding, I mean 10,000. 200 miles encompases LA, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, San Bernadino, etc. Probably 20 million people or so and I swear sometimes I think half of them are musicians.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272 |
"I'm pretty sure that beer, shots, gas, and gear prices have all inflated at the exact same rate as pay for band members."
-Tsar Kasim
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326 |
Pay was bad 30 years ago and it's beyond bad now.
It's supply and demand. A person would have problems getting five plumbers to drive 200 miles but there's no problem at all getting oh lets say 20 decent bands to do it. And, I would be willing to bet there are more than 20 good bands within 200 miles in a rural area, it's probably 100 or so. Here in SoCal I would not be surprised if that number is more like 10,000. I'm not kidding, I mean 10,000. 200 miles encompases LA, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, San Bernadino, etc. Probably 20 million people or so and I swear sometimes I think half of them are musicians.
Bob When you factor that NYC, Atlanta, Nashville, Chicago, and most other major cities are all similar...... well, you know the rest of the story. And it's that way out here in the flyover states too. As long as the number of hopeful bands in inversely proportional to the number of available gigs, it will remain this way.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,358
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 18,358 |
Not to mention the adverse affect the rising popularity that DJ's have had on the industry.
(Why pay for four when you can pay for one?)
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272 |
I do have to say I hear a lot of rationalization for why you can't make money playing out live.
I know of several bands local to me, and I'm not in some big metro area, that do decent.
One band specifically pulls in well over 100k a month. They do some really creative things to make that. Things most bands don't do. That's why they make what most bands never do.
Of course, there are many other bands that don't share their initiative and don't have those financial rewards. They may not be looking for that though.
I think it comes down to goals, a plan, noticing if it's working, and change what isn't.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,114
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,114 |
The first paying gig I ever had was 1972, I made $30. Last gig was maybe five years ago as a favour to a friend, his regular guitarist couldn't make the gig, and I made $50 and three beers.
When I played on a regular basis back in the mid 90's (not full time, just Friday and Saturday nights) the band would average around $250 a night, three sets. Five guys in the band, $50 each.
My friend that I did the favour for makes his living with music, but most of the money he makes is outside his band. He plays with his blues band maybe twice a week, but in between he is booked solid doing a solo act playing retirement residences, that sort of thing.
Last edited by BlueAttitude; 03/15/17 03:52 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
I do have to say I hear a lot of rationalization for why you can't make money playing out live.
I know of several bands local to me, and I'm not in some big metro area, that do decent.
One band specifically pulls in well over 100k a month. They do some really creative things to make that. Things most bands don't do. That's why they make what most bands never do.
Of course, there are many other bands that don't share their initiative and don't have those financial rewards. They may not be looking for that though.
I think it comes down to goals, a plan, noticing if it's working, and change what isn't.
What is the name of that 100K/month band?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326 |
I do have to say I hear a lot of rationalization for why you can't make money playing out live.
I know of several bands local to me, and I'm not in some big metro area, that do decent.
One band specifically pulls in well over 100k a month. They do some really creative things to make that. Things most bands don't do. That's why they make what most bands never do.
Of course, there are many other bands that don't share their initiative and don't have those financial rewards. They may not be looking for that though.
I think it comes down to goals, a plan, noticing if it's working, and change what isn't.
What is the name of that 100K/month band? I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps local to where you're at but with a record deal and on some major tours selling merchandise at the shows. Well over $100k a month is not a local band. That's a band with national reach, radio play, and some big names and credits. That's over $25k a week. They are not gigging at the local watering hole. If you live in Nashville, I'm sure there's a few bands that make $1.2 million a year. Your average "local" band is lucky to gross $40k a year.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,816
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,816 |
Bands around here are playing for the same amount as I made back in the 60's. In a ten mile radius from my home town back then there were about 10 bars that had bands very Friday and Saturday night. Now there isn't a single bar that has bands. Plus wedding bands were put out of business by DJs.
It is sad because kids today have no place to play and learn music. Even High Schools have gone to DJs. I still can't dance because I played at every High School dance at not only my school but most schools around the area.
It's a very sad scene today for musicians that want to play out.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272 |
The name of the band is Vic Ferrari.
They are by NO means a national band.
They are a COVER band. They don't "tour" because, they don't have original music from what I know. They play almost exclusively covers...I'm trying to think if I have ever heard an original by them, and don't think I have. They plan some trips where they are the band that plays, and "party with their fans." They travel within a six hour drive AT MOST (I believe), except for their trips. The majority of their bookings are within the state. Most of that NOT in big cities!
They don't have radio play.
They do sell some merchandise, but I wouldn't guess it to be that much.
Most of their bookings are for village/town/city festival type of work.
It's HOW they go about doing what they do that makes them that amount of money. I could explain further, but think it's a disservice to the thread.
It's also the type of conversation I prefer to have via an actual conversation verses typing it here for the world to disagree with. If anyone is really THAT interested in what they do, PM me with your number and I will walk you through it. It's not complicated, but it is brilliant. So not to be TOO vague, I will say they get a cut of EVERYTHING they are involved with.
Also, to be clear, that's not 100k per player per month! I don't think anyone was thinking that, but don't want to wonder if I'm misunderstood.
I only posted this to show it IS possible to make money playing in bands. Most people don't make much, but don't do what it takes to make it either...so they tell themselves it can't be done. That's a narrow view of the world.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 03/15/17 06:06 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272 |
I should probably add that if you decide to "check them out" you probably won't see what makes them their money. Most people would (guessing) focus on how well they perform or don't for that matter. It's not about that 
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
I should probably add that if you decide to "check them out" you probably won't see what makes them their money. Most people would (guessing) focus on how well they perform or don't for that matter. It's not about that Are they selling drugs? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272 |
Are they selling drugs? Who's asking? 
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,632
Posts735,245
Members38,521
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean