PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Gig Prices

A few days ago Janice and I were looking for some old photos and ran across some of our contracts from our bluegrass band gig days. That caused me to reflect on the prices over the years - relative only to my experience.

In the 60's while in college myself and another guy booked (and recorded) talented garage bands...mostly to frat houses and small clubs. Typical amount was $200-$300.

In the 70's I played in several bluegrass bands and we booked clubs and various events for $300-$500.

In the 80's, 90's and very early 2000's Janice and I played in a couple of BG bands that worked regularly (too regularly for our tastes) for yep $300-$500 (three sets) with the only exception being weekend long festivals.

In what other situation would payment for services have remained so constant over 35 years? Anybody have similar experiences?

You are correct. In real dollars, the compensation has actually declined over time. When you factor inflation, it's a mighty grim picture for musicians. Anyone playing today is playing for less than those of us who were gigging 30 years ago. Compare the price of gas, motel rooms, vehicles, gear, meals, and living expenses back then to now. Everything has risen but the wages for a band remain the same essentially. We could book motel rooms for $25 a night or $35 at the Holiday Inn.... try to find decent room now for under $90. You could hit a nice restaurant and get a decent (not fast food) meal for around or under $5. That same meal today is closer to $20 if not more.

Who's to blame? The clubs for exploiting the bands? The musicians themselves for undercutting each other and undervaluing their music? The perception of the people for thinking music is supposed to be cheap or free and not being willing to pay to see live bands? Solo guys with backing tracks on a computer who will work cheaper than a 4 piece band?

or.... all of the above?

Good analysis.

Fortunately other than in the 60's I was doing it for what I thought was "the art." I had convinced myself that playing in a five piece band for peanuts was worth it as we were spreading the bluegrass love. Throughout most of the years Janice and I played I had a "had to be there" high pressure career as a hospital administrator. Janice also worked in the same field. So we'd wipe out our weekend playing a frat somewhere or a bank opening or wedding reception and imagining it was worth it. We didn't need the money but I demanded the most we could get.

I remember telling one big buck guy who wanted us for a wedding reception that maybe he should figure out what it would cost to get five plumbers come to his lake house on the weekend and stay for five hours including a 200 mile roundtrip drive. I'm sure he paid a helluva lot more for food than our $500.

Gimme BiaB any day of the week! It's more fun and we stay on the homestead.

Bud

I go with all of the above. People are eager to just play ANYWHERE. I saw an event on The Book of Face for a girl playing in a neighborhood bakery!!

"I'll take a dozen oatmeal raisin and do you know I Fall To Pieces?"

Well, back in the day, I was in several working bands. Most of those were weekend warrior bands. One of them was a full time working band. We didn't cut prices to try to get gigs, in fact we went in the other direction. Yeah we did a number of cheap or free gigs on Wed nights when we were getting started, to get in the door of clubs that had big paydays and only booked the top bands. One "free audition" we played was at a club that booked only the regional level bands. The deal was we played one set and if he liked us, he'd book us, if not we went home with nothing. At the end of the set, the place was packed and the crowd was having a good time. The manager told us we'd get several bookings and if we wanted to, we could play another set and he'd pay us the door take. We looked at the crowd and said heck yes. It was a good payday for a "free audition" on a Wednesday night.

We were a 3 piece band and were charging the same thing as bands with 5 and 6 members in the same clubs. We got it too. In addition to that, we were also the highest paid band in the military club system at the time. Our 3 piece band was making bigger paychecks than bands with twice the members on stage. One reason.... we were the favored band by the club managers and the audience reaction was always outstanding. We could load in and out in short order, something the managers liked at closing time, we started on time and kept our breaks to the contracted limits, and we were flexible in our dealings with the clubs.

We had many clubs balk at our asking price for a weekend. They'd counter with something like..... our best band only gets $X.00 for the weekend. Sometimes we could reach a deal and other times not. Often we'd play the first weekend at or closer to their comfort zone price.... one time. We played one of our first gigs as a band, at a club we had booked as a 4 piece band. Our singer/guitarist never showed up. We played the gig as a 3 piece band and brought the house down. The manager tried to short us based on math. We stood firm and he paid the full price. We re-booked that gig and played there several more times with no issues over money.

We were all full time musicians. We played normally 4 to 6 nights a week. Weeknights were generally less money but weekends were full price. We did pretty good. I was the booking agent and stayed busy keeping our band working. The drummer and bass player handled the PR stuff and collecting the money at the gigs. We all had our specialty.

Times have changed. Yep... I have "musical event dates" come across my FB page all the time.... singer playing at a seafood restaurant.... singer playing at a pizza joint..... I know that's not a high paying gig.... probably $50 and a meal.

Cool story. It reminds me of a band I was managing/booking and traveling with during an "out of college for the summer" time - the mid 60's. The gig was the Old Dutch club in Panama City, Florida. Played five nights a week and on just about every Sunday the owner would audition a band...if he liked them more they got the current band's job at the end of their contract (usually two weeks). But, hey, we got the gig that way so we knew what to expect. They had "quarters" for the band in the basement and the previous tenants got POed when they lost the gig and let their dog poop all over the two rooms. Seems grim at the moment but when you're 20 and have a two week beach gig it was a very small inconvenience.

There ain't no money in playing music. Never was. Never will be.


Regards,


Bob

Pay was bad 30 years ago and it's beyond bad now.

Just MHO, it's due to gazillions of players like all of us here being lured into gigging for fun, exposure and of course, chicks. I'm sure this was true in the 20's but now we have (pick a number) untold thousands of kids getting music degrees either performing degrees or production degrees or both.

Here is LA we have an NPR station called KKJZ that's all jazz during the week but they have a great blues show on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. Part of that show is called the Indie Hour where the DJ showcases one or two bands. These recordings are absolutely first class and so is the playing. My only problem with it is there is no original sound. It's all guitar based and everybody sounds exactly like (name your favorite blues/rock guy) from Clapton to SRV to Alvin Lee to BB King you name it. They have all the licks and character of the sound absolutely perfect. And they're all technical monsters. I listen to this show every week and over the years I've heard probably several hundred of these bands and they're all killers. Back in the day any one of these players would have had a shot at making it IF they were the first ones to create that sound and those licks.

The problem is they're not the first ones. They're like all the rest of us growing up listening to the original artists so we all sound just like them. that's true for me on keys and it's true for all you guitar pickers. That's ok for cover band gigs, but that's it.

Multiply this by 99 thousand/million/GAZILLION cover band players all over the world and that's the reason nobody is making any money.

It's supply and demand. A person would have problems getting five plumbers to drive 200 miles but there's no problem at all getting oh lets say 20 decent bands to do it. And, I would be willing to bet there are more than 20 good bands within 200 miles in a rural area, it's probably 100 or so. Here in SoCal I would not be surprised if that number is more like 10,000. I'm not kidding, I mean 10,000. 200 miles encompases LA, Riverside, Orange, San Diego, San Bernadino, etc. Probably 20 million people or so and I swear sometimes I think half of them are musicians.

Bob

"I'm pretty sure that beer, shots, gas, and gear prices have all inflated at the exact same rate as pay for band members."

-Tsar Kasim

When you factor that NYC, Atlanta, Nashville, Chicago, and most other major cities are all similar...... well, you know the rest of the story.

And it's that way out here in the flyover states too.

As long as the number of hopeful bands in inversely proportional to the number of available gigs, it will remain this way.

Not to mention the adverse affect the rising popularity that DJ's have had on the industry.
(Why pay for four when you can pay for one?)

I do have to say I hear a lot of rationalization for why you can't make money playing out live.

I know of several bands local to me, and I'm not in some big metro area, that do decent.

One band specifically pulls in well over 100k a month. They do some really creative things to make that. Things most bands don't do. That's why they make what most bands never do.

Of course, there are many other bands that don't share their initiative and don't have those financial rewards. They may not be looking for that though.

I think it comes down to goals, a plan, noticing if it's working, and change what isn't.

The first paying gig I ever had was 1972, I made $30. Last gig was maybe five years ago as a favour to a friend, his regular guitarist couldn't make the gig, and I made $50 and three beers.

When I played on a regular basis back in the mid 90's (not full time, just Friday and Saturday nights) the band would average around $250 a night, three sets. Five guys in the band, $50 each.

My friend that I did the favour for makes his living with music, but most of the money he makes is outside his band. He plays with his blues band maybe twice a week, but in between he is booked solid doing a solo act playing retirement residences, that sort of thing.

What is the name of that 100K/month band?

I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps local to where you're at but with a record deal and on some major tours selling merchandise at the shows. Well over $100k a month is not a local band. That's a band with national reach, radio play, and some big names and credits. That's over $25k a week. They are not gigging at the local watering hole.

If you live in Nashville, I'm sure there's a few bands that make $1.2 million a year. Your average "local" band is lucky to gross $40k a year.

Bands around here are playing for the same amount as I made back in the 60's. In a ten mile radius from my home town back then there were about 10 bars that had bands very Friday and Saturday night. Now there isn't a single bar that has bands. Plus wedding bands were put out of business by DJs.

It is sad because kids today have no place to play and learn music. Even High Schools have gone to DJs. I still can't dance because I played at every High School dance at not only my school but most schools around the area.

It's a very sad scene today for musicians that want to play out.

The name of the band is Vic Ferrari.

They are by NO means a national band.

They are a COVER band. They don't "tour" because, they don't have original music from what I know. They play almost exclusively covers...I'm trying to think if I have ever heard an original by them, and don't think I have. They plan some trips where they are the band that plays, and "party with their fans." They travel within a six hour drive AT MOST (I believe), except for their trips. The majority of their bookings are within the state. Most of that NOT in big cities!

They don't have radio play.

They do sell some merchandise, but I wouldn't guess it to be that much.

Most of their bookings are for village/town/city festival type of work.

It's HOW they go about doing what they do that makes them that amount of money. I could explain further, but think it's a disservice to the thread.

It's also the type of conversation I prefer to have via an actual conversation verses typing it here for the world to disagree with. If anyone is really THAT interested in what they do, PM me with your number and I will walk you through it. It's not complicated, but it is brilliant. So not to be TOO vague, I will say they get a cut of EVERYTHING they are involved with.

Also, to be clear, that's not 100k per player per month! I don't think anyone was thinking that, but don't want to wonder if I'm misunderstood.

I only posted this to show it IS possible to make money playing in bands. Most people don't make much, but don't do what it takes to make it either...so they tell themselves it can't be done. That's a narrow view of the world.

I should probably add that if you decide to "check them out" you probably won't see what makes them their money.

Most people would (guessing) focus on how well they perform or don't for that matter. It's not about that

Are they selling drugs?

Who's asking?

So Bud, if you were getting paid that amount in the 60's, I would think that had to be pretty great pay at that time?

If that band plays every night, they need to make $3,333 per night to make 100k per month. Nobody makes $3,333 on Mondays and Tuesdays. That means they make somewhere around $5000 per gig for 20 gigs per month. We have all scored that random corporate gig for 5k on rare occasion, but consistently?

But whatever. I am not going to argue about it because I don't really care. This software and forum is pretty much for songwriters and solo/duo acts and what some copy band in Wisconsin makes is not really all that relevant to what this forum is about. This one post asked that question, so okay, but a large number of people here are songwriters. Either you are a member of that band or they are your friends because you have mentioned them several times. To my ears, my own opinion, they are just another copy band (that stole their name from Andy Kaufman's alter ego character), and I do not appreciate copy bands. At all. Any copy band. Zoso comes through here with their Led Zepplin act. Never seen them. They are just another copy band to me. I am a songwriter, which I believe takes a higher level of skill set. We have had this conversation here before.

Copy bands summed up:

https://youtu.be/5pidokakU4I

In 1965 - 1966 if you had a van with your band name on the side in "fancy" letters, some friend who was a roadie wannabe, and some sharp clothes, maybe some glittery Kustom amps and a shiny Farfisa organ then you were rock stars -- really. Oh and make sure you had a raised drum stand Ours was 2x4's, plywood and wingnuts for quick assembly. Rent a gym in a small town, pay the DJ a percent of the door to play your 45 for a week before and the kids poured in...$500-700 after expenses was common. But for frats and clubs $300 was about all we could ever get. But you are right that money went a LOT further. I'd go by the bank on Friday, withdraw $20 and have money left over after the weekend. Gas was 30 cents a gallon, etc. Had it not been for the draft I would have dropped out of college in a heartbeat and made all the $ I could. A friend and I rented a recording studio in block times and recorded small bands for a set price. We offered them all the studio time it took to get an A and a B side and 500 45's to take with them. I forget exactly what we charged but we made a good bit doing that. Who knows, had I been able to stay on that journey it would likely have been a heckuva lot more interesting than 35 years in the hospital admin business -- on the other hand I have a retirement income

Neither of those are how they do it.



I was under the impression this would be acceptable to the topic. To me it was very relevant to the conversation.



I know of them because they are from the area I live. I used to (25 years ago) play in a competing band.

I never brought them up here before, that I know of. So rather than argue, point me to the threads.

You may want to pic your mic up.

That sounds so fun...for my younger self! lol Those seem like "golden times" to me.



I was curious about that because I ran your rates on an inflation calculator and it seemed like a decent amount of money to me!



Ok, THAT is cool! You were there in best of times for that kind of thing. I'm envious!



Hey, hospital admin are the rockstars of the health industry, right?

Plus, I always assumed bands to all have strong 401k and retirement plans. Isn't that what most people at that age are diligent about?

I have to say, I love hearing this type of thing. Those times just seem so carefree...not the draft part. Just the living music part!

Thanks for expanding on that for me!

You do realize your example doesn't even make sense, right?

It's a rental.

Vic's band is good and they are playing Vegas....

$1.2 mill gross is a heck of a lot of money for a band like that. If they are getting that kind of money.... God Bless them for finding a way to make a decent living playing music in these times.

Pompalmoose is another duo that makes their income from the web and not from gigging. In fact they hired some musicians, and did a 30 day tour. They actually lost money on the tour. So they work from their studio and put music on the net and sell it direct to their fans. No touring, low overhead, and what a cool way to make a living huh?

Radio shack doesn't rent mics! Stop in during my shift and I'll see what I can do.

Makes perfect sense. Learn 4 chords, the famous Pachelbel Canon progression, and you too can play in a copy band. Hundreds of songs that never deviate from that 1-5-6m-4 progression.

And if you can only handle 3 chords, you can play in a Kiss or Skynard copy band!!

Here is what I am trying to say. Your comments seem to have almost nothing to do with the OP's subject...gig prices.

So far your contribution has been about how you don't care about information that had to do with the subject at hand, what this forum is really about, and how you don't like "copy bands."

I'm fairly certain that a number of people on this forum generated these gig prices, whenever they played, from play at least some covers at some point.

Don't take my lack of response going forward as I have nothing more to say. I am, for the first time, going to use the block feature. It's at the advice of another forum member. I frequently remember your comments and see that you're not about an opposing view on whatever the subject at hand may be. I actually like that! Your's isn't about contribution, it seems to be about disruption. You make accusations that, when challenged, you can't back up. Still waiting for that list of other times I have referenced this band. That didn't go unnoticed. I see no point in having a conversation, now or in the future, with someone who does thing like that.

So, I wish you the best, and see ya

My apologies to the OP. Hopefully that will end this part of it...at least from my side.

How about a copy band that only played YOUR songs, would you go to see them!



Musiclover

Nightly!

Nightly! [/quote]

Somebody does like copy bands around here, I rest my case!



musiclover

A tribute band to ME??? Oh HELLZ yeah!!!

There is ONE tribute band I would see, and they are in Russia. Some of you may have heard of them, particularly if you are on Facebook. They are a Chicago tribute band called "Chicagovitz". It is EXACTLY like seeing/hearing old Chicago before people started quitting in a snit or shooting themselves..... They just did a CD of I think 11 songs and I bought it from CD Baby. And if they toured here, I would go see them. Everything is spot on.

And that is my last off topic post here in off topic. Though I suppose I could make it on topic by saying they would make a TROUGH full of money playing here.

Yep.... I've seen the video of that band.... quite a talented bunch of comrades.

On this side of the pond.... I actually won a pair of tickets to see a Lynyrd Skynyrd Tribute band in Raleigh on Saturday night but my wife is not feeling well. She has something that has her coughing and sneezing and ... it's truly painful to see and hear. So unless she recovers in a dramatic fashion, we'll probably miss that show.

I'm a little late to the party, and I have an early gig today, so I didn't have time to read all the responses. Please excuse any redundancy.

Yes, we play for about what we did 20 years ago, while inflation eats away at our buying power.



Add to the above:

1) Taxes and smaller mark-up for bar/food prices. Back when the MADD Mothers crusaded against drunk drivers, the State of Florida (and others) used it as an excuse to raise the tax on drinks $0.50 per drink. The bar I was playing in raised their price $0.25 and ate the rest. Food and other services have raised prices to the clubs as well and they are in the same spot as the musicians.

2) Karaoke Jocks. Not Karaoke clubs where the audience gets up and sings (although that hurts some) but people who don't play instruments, buy Karaoke software and go out and play clubs as if they were musicians. This increases the supply of entertainers and supply and demand rules. Plus since they have no investment in instruments and gear or the time to learn, they tend to undercut their prices to get in the door. And since the clubs are working with reduced profits, they tend to think these entertainers are a good bargain even if the product turns out to be inferior.

3) Open mic nights. Musicians will play for free and bring a group of customers with them. Too good for the club to pass up even if the music turns out inferior.

4a) Cable TV. In my parent's generation, TV was black and white, with reduced bandwith for audio, tiny speaker, and tinny sound. Later color TV with bigger speakers but the same thin bandwidth for audio so tinny sound. TV was free, but you had to go out to listen to live entertainment if you wanted to hear good music.

4b) Cable TV continued: Now we have "Home Theater" with giant super HD screens, 7.1 surround sound, and you can have The Stones, Adele, Ga Ga, Chesney, or whatever famous artist/group you like in your living room, like you have a front row seat, and just about whenever you want to stream them.

4c) Cable TV continued: TV used to be free, now it's easy to pay $300/month for TV subscriptions. That money used to be spent in night clubs for live entertainment. Multiply that by millions of Cable TV subscribers, and you can see why attendance is down in clubs. People just don't go out like they used to.

5) The music industry killed itself. It used to be that the music was an expression of an entire generation. From Al Jolson through Frank Sinatra through Elvis Presley through The Beatles everybody of that generation knew the words to their songs. Then came disco which split the market followed by (in no particular order) Metal, Rap, EDO, Pop, R&B (not to be confused with traditional R&B), Alt Rock etc. Not everyone listened and knew the words to Metallica, Dave Matthews, or even Michael Jackson. Instead of a youth radio station, most markets had several different formats for the same generation. So music no longer became the glue that held an entire generation together, therefore it lost its importance.

6) DJ clubs. The youth market and the wedding market that used to be predominantly live bands are now predominantly DJ run. Again, more supply for the same demand. And now DJs have even replaced bands in the adult market.

---------

Subtract from the above (OP).

1) Singles playing with backing tracks. I've never seen a single replace a 4 piece band around here. They play in rooms that always hired a single. They just sound fuller than they used to. A big club with a big stage and a single with backing tracks replacing a 4 piece band with a real drummer? Ain't gonna happen.

---------

I'm glad I grew up when I did. I've managed to make a decent living all my life playing music (with the exception of two jobs when I was investigating what it would be to be 'normal'. I found that for me normal is over rated). I've paid off a house in a very nice neighborhood, bought brand new cars (although they were Dodge price point instead of BMW price point), a couple of sailboats, and a nice yearly vacation to 5 continents.

I could have made more with the electronics engineering I took in college, and even tried that for a couple of years (playing music on the weekends). But I'm living my life on my own terms, I'm not a wage-slave to some inhuman corporation, I don't take orders by some Dilbert type boss, and instead of saying "I have to go to work today", I say "I GET to go to work today" and I mean it because playing music is my second favorite thing to do.

In addition I've been treated as a peer by the top musicians of the day, I got to jam with many of them, record with others, I almost made 'the big time', and I've had the opportunity to be intimate with dozens of beautiful women culminating with the best one of all who I married. And for these experiences I actually got paid. How lucky is that!!!

Do I regret choosing Music over Engineering? Not one bit.

I feel sorry for the younger musicians who don't have the opportunity that I had.

Insights and incites by Notes

Good article Notes. I think you should pitch it to some music magazine publishers.

Point 2 Karoke Jocks as you describe them, I would rather listen to one who is using backing tracks and can sing, rather than a whole group of musicians where they don't have a decent singer.

As regards feeling sorry for young musicians are you really serious! there is no better time than now for any aspiring musician to learn his craft with all the online tutorials on places such as youtube and others and all the best software around not to mention biab. The best ones will always come through as they have always done, and will make a living from it.

I always find it interesting when you mention (as you always do) musicians put out of work when no doubt there are countless throughout the world using biab backing tracks with your styles, which are excellent by the way.

Musiclover

HTL, don't let Eddie ruin your day. He can be a bit cranky at times.

I looked up Vic Ferrari. They're a casino show group, the same gig I had for about 6 years back in the 70's. The band was Coxon's Army and Pat Benatar was our last girl singer before she made it.

I agree with one comment above, this thread isn't about the one in a thousand Vegas show groups, it's about local weekend warriors. There are some making good money, just not very many that's all.

Bob

Hey Bob, no worries.

The band isn't actually vegas band. They pay there once a year as a trip THEY book. It's pretty crazy how they do it.

Almost all of their jobs are festivals within the state. Just local guys that play in a band. They have day jobs or go to college, kind of thing.

That's pretty wild that Joan Jett was your singer. Talk about stage presence! I bet you have stories galore from playing!!!

I agree that today there is a ton of information and lessons that a aspiring musician can learn from but IMHO the most informative place to learn how to apply these teachings are in a band environment. That opportunity is gone today, at least around here. As I indicated in my original post in this thread back in the 60's-70's there were a lot of places for bands to play in our area but today there are very few. YMMV

This kind of stuck out to me...... can't argue with the luck factor....and getting paid for it? Ummmmmm... they got a word for that ...... not a bad side gig.

Joe's Bar

"Live Band Saturday Night"

Thirty people showed up and spent 40 dollars each. That is $1200 total. Lets say Joe is a super business man and made 50% gross profit. That is $600.

What would be a reasonable amount for Joe to pay a band?

I sometimes play with a local south Florida band in the keys. There are generally 300 to 400 people at one of the gigs. Tips alone are around 200 to 400 dollars. We get paid very well because the club/restaurant makes enough money to afford to have a band. We also play our own original music for the most part. Some covers and most anything that someone request if we think we can play it well.

There are many tourist there, so we are not playing to the same people every time. They are on Holiday and have money to spend.

What they want is to be entertained. We are not in the music business. We are in the entertainment business.

Everyone in the band sings and everyone plays drums, guitar, bass, and keys.

We don't drink at the gig. We come there to work and make money. It is a business.

Are we a really good band? Well, yes we think so. On most nights at least...lol

I think we make better money than many bands because we work harder.

We are also very fortunate because everyone in the band likes one another and supports each other,so there is never any "band drama".

I will say the better paying gigs are corporate gigs.They pay anywhere from $2000 to $5000. They are a ton of work to get and to play. Many times requiring learning certain cover songs we don't know.

I think it will only take another 10 or 15 years for us to get good enough to compete with the big guys. If we are lucky...

If you want to make music be a music man. If you want to make money be a business man.

No one ever said it would be easy!!

Not Joan Jett, it was Pat Benatar. Our other singer who made it was Marlene Ricci. Long story, she wound up in Vegas in the 80's doing a show for years at Caesar's with Sinatra.
Ever hear about the book called 20 Feet From Stardom? That was me too. Close but no cigar...

After all that I was an agent for years and kept gigging right up to a few weeks ago and have more coming up. Never got back to that level though.

Bob

Excellent article. Great insights and an explanation of the reality involved.

"I sometimes play with a local south Florida band in the keys. There are generally 300 to 400 people at one of the gigs. Tips alone are around 200 to 400 dollars. We get paid very well because the club/restaurant makes enough money to afford to have a band. We also play our own original music for the most part. Some covers and most anything that someone request if we think we can play it well."



Where in the Keys are you playing original music?



Regards,


Bob

Dunno about the book but the documentary was spectacular. Janice and I were never close to or aspired to stardom but we shared the stage with some of the best.

Bud

Just thought I'd twist the topic by saying, "Good luck getting churches to pay musicians". I simply don't do it for free anymore. For far too long my wife and I were 1/3 of the church service. Not to mention preparing, rehearsal, learning new songs, organizing teams. It's far more valuable that free. I'll jump in as a guitar player on short notice as long as there is no mid-week rehearsal and the team leader is good and organized. Oh, I certainly enjoy it. But, 8 - 12 hours of dedication every week to be the worship team leader for free is no longer for me. I'm sure there are lots of people willing to do it though.

My, My, My.... yeah!

I think I may have told the story about why I quit/got fired..... depending on who you listen to, from playing in the church orchestra.

All volunteer musicians..... paid music minister. We took from our time to support the church music on Sunday mornings by being there before anyone else got there on Sunday morning and also Wed night rehearsals.

The MM was always throwing these "special musical events" into the normal mix. I guess he thought he needed to "earn his keep". He came up with some music that didn't require guitar....at all. It was only a few weeks away from the date of performance, and we hadn't hit the music at all. With 5 minutes or so remaining in the Wed night rehearsal, he says pull out the sheet music.... slaps the CD in the machine and plays the first 20 seconds of a song. Then he says lets start at measure 30 or so..... total train wreck. repeat that again with a different song, and called it a night. Same story the next week. So to this point, all I had done was sit quietly and listen. Third week... same thing. So Knowing what was coming and having heard the music and knowing a guitar was not needed at all in that style.... I very quietly packed my gear, shut the amp off and left the stage by the side.

I was headed up the center aisle when the MM stopped the orchestra, and turned to me and said.... for the entire orchestra and about 25 or so folks in the back of the auditorium, "Herb, you think you're too good to play this music ...don't you? Not believing I heard what I thought I heard, I turned and simply asked him to call me the next day and we could talk. he repeated it and started to say a few other things. Not wanting a conflict in front of all those folks, I turned and walked up the aisle and out to my truck and went home.

I got an email telling me not to show up on Sunday until "we have a chance to talk".

At the meeting the following week, in the company of both the MM and the pastor, I was handed a list of conditions I was asked to read and sign off on in order to continue with the music program. As I finished the list, I asked if he (the MM) had handed this same list to the rest of the musicians and told them they also had to comply with the requirements. Deer in the headlights. He said no he hadn't. I slid the list back across the table to him and told him I would not sign it. I was a volunteer and was willing to provide my services without any conditions.

The meeting ended with no resolution. He tried to ease off the harsh restrictions a bit but not totally. I declined. He was not willing to take my services as a volunteer without me abiding by his list. So he told me I could come back if I would follow his list. That was the last time I went to that church. Sadly, this story is not a one time event. You are expected to spend lots of time for the program to which you are offering your time and talents for free. Fired? Quit? perhaps both.



OK.... I'm done.

Doing residential gigs and getting 80.00 gbp an hour .

And its Monday to Friday school hours.

best

Yes, I still feel sorry for younger musicians.

Yes there are more resources to teach you how to play.

But there are fewer places where you can gig and more musicians/karaoke jocks/DJs/Sports Bars, etc. filling those positions.

When I was growing up every hotel from a Holiday Inn on up had 6 or 7 nights per week of live music. Weddings, parties, school dances, and almost everything else was live too. If you played recordings, the party was considered "less than". Singles clubs, adult bars, of any worth all had live bands -- the only bars with TVs as the entertainment were corner taverns consisting of a barkeep and a dozen bar stools, and none had DJs.

Yes the Internet is a great teacher -- but -- As far as instruction is concerned, we taught each other.

I remember one of my early gigs. I was fresh out of High School, playing in Lenny's Lounge in Fort Lauderdale FL.

There were two bands, the black band and the white band. We took turns, when it came break time whoever was on stage started the break song, the other band members came out and as they picked up their instrument, the corresponding player in the other band left the stage.

Me? I walked across the stage and played with the black band. The sax player and I used to have fun together. He'd lead off and I'd try to follow the best I could.

Before the gig we all spent time in the back room. The black sax man (I wish I could remember his name) taught me so many of the things about playing Blues and Rock that the schools didn't teach. Like how to use your throat and vocal cords to get and regulate distortion, when to scoop up to notes from flat to pitch for effect, when to over-blow the horn, how to change mouth shapes to influence the tone and the vowel sound, how to play without breath support and a weak embouchure to get sub-tones, and more. He was a grey haired old guy and used to say, "I am the past, and you are the future" and told me that one day I'd be doing the same thing to some younger musician.

I wouldn't have traded that for a zillion internet lessons. As time went on and we gigged in other places, I shared info with other musicians. We were everywhere, and although some kept their secrets to themselves, most of us shared.

I was taught guitar and bass by guitarists and bassists, never had a formal lesson in either and I got good enough to play bass for Freddie Boom Boom Cannon for a short series of concerts.

I've passed on things I've learned to other sax players, and even taught a trumpet player how to play sax. He's quite good now.

Another beginner I took under my wing has played in New Orleans Jazz Fest a few years in a row. She moved to NOLA and continued to blossom.

It's what we did when there were working musicians everywhere. We passed on the tradition to the youngsters. We didn't do formal lessons, didn't take money, just shared.

Things are different now, and I just roll with the changes. Some things are better now, and I miss other things. It's just the way it is.

I started playing professionally in 1964, and other than two 'straight jobs' where I investigated what being normal was like, I've made a living playing music. Even in those two bouts of doing day gigs (neither lasted that long) I played music on the weekends. Since 1964 I've missed only one gig, I was in the hospital with food poisoning and they wouldn't let me out. I've played with big stars, recorded at Motown and other studios, partied with headliners and was treated as a peer, felt comfortable on stages with thousands in the audience, and even though I'm of retirement age, I have no plans to quit what I'm doing, because it's what I love to do.

And yes, we are playing for the same money as we did years ago, but it's a game of supply and demand, and I have to go with the flow. Still we get more than most duos, because of our reputation and because we do a good job. True we've lost some gigs to DJs and KJocks who undercut us but we've also gotten gigs where people say "Wow! You actually play your own instruments!"

Things change, accountants are replaced by TurboTax, the post office is hurt by e-mail, newspapers and magazines have taken a hit by the Internet, small restaurants put out of business by big chains, and so on.

Things change, some adapt and survive, some don't, and that's the way it has always been. Nobody sells cranks for Model T Fords anymore.

Live music is a state of decline, which is why I think I'm lucky to be born when I did so I could ride it at its peak.

Insights and incites by Notes

Lorelei Cabana Bar and Restaurant Islamorada, FL ( big outdoor venue...very small stage...lol)
Post Card Inn Islamorada, FL....more classic rock here
Boca Raton Resort & Club- PRIVATE CLUB (not in the keys)

I started playing for money in high school. $5 for a 3 hr. dance in '58. Pizza and a coke and $2 left over.
First union job I got was as a sideman, I remember it well, it was hollowen night in a dive bar where motorcycle gangs hung out. I don't remember how much I made, maybe $40. I do remember is that I was thankful I got out of there alive!
I began teaching school in 1964 and was playing weekends. One midweek we played happy hour for 3 evenings at the Fairmont in SF. and for the first and only time I made more than playing my school salary for that month.

In the mid 60's making $75 a night on weekends. I was making more than my wife's 40 hr. a week office job so she was able to stay home with the kids.

Bob, as far as learning from other musicians, I learned Portugese songs from a trumpet player while on the bandstand. He would play his chorus and I would learn. He then would sing it to me as I played my chorus.

Learned the Chicken Dance the same way but with a beautiful Swedish young woman singing not my ear while I was playing!!

Got to run, gigging in an hour.

When I hear someone say play 'the chicken' I think of this first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgntkGc5iBo

jaco, erskine, brecker ..

Now that's good music!

Notes, my main observation is that these days, music teachers are typically local musicians who have no day job, and they teach SONGS, not music. Not the way to learn, in my opinion. Learn music. Scales, key signatures... THEN learn how to finger tap and play those awful Van Halen solos that had no message and were just an exercise to see how many notes he could fit into his 32 bars.

My first gig was when I was 15 at a teen center. 4 piece band, good amount of Beatles and Stones type music, whatever was popular in 1966. When we finished, the rhythm player's mother, who was our "manager" told us we earned $25 for the night. And when she had a chance to make change, we'd get our share of that $25. So my first gig paid $6.25.

Luckily, no agent fee....

And it's been downhill ever since

Some music teachers today are like that. But around here there are a some still like myself that teach music, i.e. old school. I teach reading music first, single notes to start with then chords. Then I teach the pentatonic scale and how to play the blues. Along with that I teach how to form a major scale from a chromatic scale followed by how to learn the notes of a chord from those major scales. Then scales and advanced fingering techniques.

I have had great success using that formula. But I tell the student right up front if you think you are going to be playing like the guys you see or hear on TV or radio in a couple of months you might as well quit now.

Ed I agree totally with you on those shredders. Why play as fast as you can if you ain't saying nothing?

I knew in my heart though that they got exactly what they paid for!!!

In my mind one of the best players ever was/is Joe Walsh. His solos always said something relevant to the song.

And what is the ONE thing Joe isn't?

A speed burner.

Music has to come from your heart. This always reminds me of the night my sax playing friend and I went to see Kenny G(orelick). We used to have a venue in Cleveland called The Front Row. It was 30 rows deep and in the round with a rotating stage. We bought early to get good seats, and we were in the 3rd row. A local jazz group opened for him and were very good. He started about 9:15, and by 9:45 we were out of there. Now, Kenny G is maybe the BEST technical sax player I have ever seen. Everything he does is straight out of Berklee. But by the 4th song he was already repeating licks. I leaned over to my friend and said "We heard these licks in the 2nd song", and he replied "In the first one too." And we got up and left. Again, FINE technician, but man, playing maybe THE most expressive instrument on the tree and he plays like the whitest dude in America. Back in his Jeff Lorber days, when he played tenor, THEN he played with some soul. But on soprano, with those long, fluid scales and circular breathing that he manages to work into EVERY song.... my god he is boring. It's like Mariah Carey and her 7 octave range. It is impressive, but don't show us everything you have in every song.

And that's what the new breed of musician is, eager to hit every club in the bag on every hole. Well, some holes don't require the 3 wood and the 4 iron. Hit those clubs only when you need them. (I hope everybody golfs to get that metaphor.)

I am like you, Mario. I learned from a taskmaster who would not let me touch an instrument until I could show him on a little plastic fake keyboard which note represented the dot he pointed to on his blackboard. 6 weeks of theory before I was allowed to play. But now, 61 years later as of next month, I am so grateful for that approach.

Ed you got that right! Joe is one of the best around today. He can play with anybody and fit right in with the perfect leads.

I think all the low prices for gigs is the fault of Larry Wayne Fischer. It's all his fault...lol

Here is a quote from Wikipedia.

" Following his escape from a mental hospital (he said no one ever bothered to take him back there), Fischer wandered Los Angeles singing his songs a cappella for 10¢ US each to passers-by. Discovered on the street by Frank Zappa, Fischer became an underground concert favorite."


While 10 cents a song may not be much, perhaps it is better than the current Los Angeles "pay to play" situation....lol

On a more serious note, every once in awhile my old band Super Blue would play for free. There was no real reason except we wanted to play.

I approached a club owner in Bisbee Arizona one day dressed in overalls and pretty dirty from moving some cows around. I am sure I did not smell all that great...lol

I told her that we would come over on Saturday night and play if that was OK with her at no cost to the club. See agreed, but I have no idea why. She most likely thought I was crazy and would never see me again.I never said what sort of music we would play.

Tonya the bass player drove from Houston, Texas to make the gig and paid her own way. A couple of horn players from Tucson got wind of this and joined us. The keyboard player drove in from LA.

We burned the house down and before the night was over half the town was in the bar or out on the street.

Everyone in the band dressed to the nines and we put on a hell of a show. I even took a shower and washed off the cow smell...lol

The look on the club owners face was worth a million dollars. We never told anyone in Bisbee who we were or why we were there.

Sometimes it is fun and really worth it just to play just because you want to. No money involved, no recognition, no expectations.

Cheers,

Billy

Just for some perspective, how many people are there in Bisbee Arizona?

There is a city near me called Center Of The World Oho that has about 2 dozen houses and a gas station/quickie mart. Half the town there is like 22 people.... It's so small that no population is listed! LOL!!!

Every time my travels take me through there I think, I thought I was the center of the world???

Well, MY world, anyway...

Indeed. If you haven't already heard his solo in the song Long Road Out of Eden..... Oh...My.... Goodness! Go buy the album and listen. Soak in it.

Well, Half the town was an over statement. The club was packed and people were standing outside on the street. I really don't know how many people were there.
I think four or five thousand people live in Bisbee. Tourist go there from all over the world.

My point was more about "getting paid" and how money is only one measure of the rewards to be had playing music.

Billy

Actually Billy, I would LIKE to book a gig in Center of the World Ohio! If I got 12 people I could say half the town was there! Maybe even make more than that $6.25 I mentioned earlier.

Good for you. It is definitely slower starting that way, but in the long run the student will surpass the song learners to become much better musicians.

I remember seemingly endless hours of practice memorizing scales. And unlike the guitar, the same scale in each key has entirely different fingerings. So there are 12 different major fingering patterns, 12 natural minors, 12 harmonic minors, 12 melodic minors, 12 pentatonics, and so on. Along with the scales are the arpeggios (chords played one note at a time, ascending and descending because sax plays only one note at a time). Again 12 majors, 12 minors and so on.

But when I need one of those scales or arpeggios, what I hear in my head simply flows out of my fingers with no verbal thought involved.



Shredders are like Bebop players. Most of them simply play as many notes as they can with no relevance to either the song or musicality. IMO Instead of music they are playing empty notes.

But there are others who play a lot of notes but still play music. Being sax oriented I point to Charlie Parker and Richie Cole. They play a lot of notes, but it is rarely boring.

My favorite players have great technique, but unless you are listening to evaluate technique, you rarely notice it. Instead you notice music; melody, dynamics, phrasing, etc. -- vox humana. Stan Getz, Paul Desmond, Stanley Turrentine are a few sax players that are masters at that.

When I solo I keep in mind two personal rules (although there are times when I break them on purpose).

1) Keep the melody of the song in mind - this doesn't mean be a slave to it, but use it. This was something Thelonius Monk advised people to do when improvising.

2) Know your audience and remember playing music needs a certain balance of predictability and surprise.

Predictability: The audience must be able to predict what you are going to play next some of the time, but if it is too predictable they will get bored.

Surprise: Sometimes the audience must not be able to predict where you are going next - surprise them. But if they can hardly ever predict where you are going they will get bored.

It's like playing with a cat using a toy on a string. If you let the cat catch it too often it gets bored and quits playing. If you never let the cat catch it it gets bored and quits playing.

Of course this varies with the audience. What you might play for a jazz audience might be too much surprise for a country audience. What you play for a blues audience might be too predictable for a jazz audience.

I'm aware of these things, but after the first song or two I'm no longer thinking about predicting my audience, seeing what they react to registers with me and my experience and instincts take over from there. Even with my eyes closed, most of the time I can tell if the audience is with me or not.

Music is a mixture of art and technique. To be a better musician you need a healthy dose of both.

To bring this back on topic, if you can entertain your audience, thrill them with surprises, keep them from being bored with your music, you stand a better chance of getting better gigs than your competition.

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes, I agree with you about the sax players you mentioned. The difference between them and the guitar shredders today, IMO, is those musicians knew when to breath, when to play slow, when to rest and when to use dynamics.

You can add just about all of the great jazz musicians in that category.

When I was playing out I only have one guitar lead rule and that was my lead must fit the song the band is playing. For instance slow song = slow lead, 50's rock = 50's lead, jazz standard = jazz lead etc. That simple formula made a lot of money for our wedding band and me.

I've never made any money playing music. Chump change. Small potatoes.

Still, I wouldn't change a thing.



Regards,


Bob