Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
RealBand
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
I copied a vocal track to a second track. I wanted to EQ them a little differently and add reverb to one of them,using the reverb from Audio Effects on Real Band.

The track copied and added the reverb fine. When I played it, a few measures would sound good but then I would get a measure or two of white noise.

Anyone had this problem and solved it?


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
RealBand
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,576
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,576
I've had something like that happen. Make sure that if it's an audio track that the track is set for that. If midi, same difference.

Last, copy the track again. Make sure when copying you copy all the controls and FX in that track.
Then paste it all into the new track.

Hope that helps.


Russ
Anyday above ground is a good day

Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision
6 Ghz quad core AMD processor
8 Gig memory
1 TB hard drive
6 GB hard drive
Windows 7 Premium
Loose nut behind the keyboard laugh

RealBand
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
If you are using the hard written effects (Audio Effects-Reverb) and not a VST or DX realtime effect:
Try consolidating the track before running these effects.
To be frank, these effects haven't been updated in years. There are some lingering bugs for some people.
For me, if I use the hard write effects (which I rarely do as I prefer realtime), consolidating is a quick easy step that helps when weird things happen.

Make sure you select or highlight the whole track, then right-click and select Track-Consolidate Audio Region.

What this does is, if you have any edits or regenerated a section (or the track has audio chunk markers for any reason), this step makes the track one contiguous chunk.

I think the hard write effects sometimes have trouble when the track is in small chunks instead of one big one.



Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
RealBand
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
You did not say what EQ plugin you are using. We are left to assume you are using the PG Music EQ plugin that came with your PG music software or the EQ in the Audio Effects list.

I'm probably wrong but, are you using a Trial Version of a reverb or EQ plugin?

Some trials have limited features until you get the paid version.

Other trials give you full function but periodic white noise until you get the paid version.

Last edited by Tobias; 03/25/17 04:08 PM.

Does the noise in your head bother me ?
RealBand
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
Thanks to everyone for the responses.

The effects were the ones with Real Band.

I will have to find out how to consolidate. It makes sense that I would need to do that.

Thanks again.


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
RealBand
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,302
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,302
Originally Posted By: 2bSolo
I copied a vocal track to a second track. I wanted to EQ them a little differently and add reverb to one of them,using the reverb from Audio Effects on Real Band.

The track copied and added the reverb fine. When I played it, a few measures would sound good but then I would get a measure or two of white noise.

Anyone had this problem and solved it?


What are you trying to accomplish using this method?


Copying a track for doubling or effect is not a good idea. You get phasing issues and that can result in comb filtering as well as cancellation and addition issues since the reverb will delay the frequencies and cause interference.

If you are trying to do track doubling for thickness, I would recommend recording a totally new second track and that way, the two tracks are far enough out of sync that the phasing issues are at a minimum.

I don't know what's happening in your situation, and I doubt it's related to the phase issue, but you never know. If the tracks are out of phase by 180 degrees, you will get something close to silence.

I never copy a track for the purpose of doubling. The only reason to copy a track is to use one of them in an experiment and knowing you have a clean copy in the event the experiment fails and you destroy the original.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
RealBand
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
Thanks for the response. My idea was to eq one of the tracks a little higher and add reverb to it. That way I could avoid reverb on the low end of the spectrum and one track would be dry so the lyric would come out a little more. However, you bring up some good reasons not to do it.

Thanks again.


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
RealBand
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
Hey Guitar Hacker, I listened to one of your songs, "I Know You're Up To It". Nice job.


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
RealBand
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,302
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,302
Originally Posted By: 2bSolo
Thanks for the response. My idea was to eq one of the tracks a little higher and add reverb to it. That way I could avoid reverb on the low end of the spectrum and one track would be dry so the lyric would come out a little more. However, you bring up some good reasons not to do it.

Thanks again.


It's not necessary to do what you're thinking about to achieve a clean, audible vocal track.

Doubling is a technique used to fatten a vocal track and make it thicker but even with a single vocal track you should easily be able to get a decent quality with reverb and the track still be crystal in regards to the vocals being heard clearly.

The song you mentioned is a single vocal track with verb on it and you can understand the words.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
RealBand
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Lots of free reverb plugins have a low cut filter that allows you to essentially change the sound of the simulated rooms low frequency reflections.
That way the low frequencies are not reverbing so much.
KJAERHUS
Voxengo
Are ones that I know of.


Does the noise in your head bother me ?
RealBand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,580
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,580
You can double a track, but if you do, you should offset it a little bit to avoid the phasing Herb talked about.


John

Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD
Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA

BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK

http://www.sus4chord.com
RealBand
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
Originally Posted By: Tobias
Lots of free reverb plugins have a low cut filter that allows you to essentially change the sound of the simulated rooms low frequency reflections.
That way the low frequencies are not reverbing so much.
KJAERHUS
Voxengo
Are ones that I know of.


Kjaerhaus is well worth downloading (the whole free package, just be sufficiently careful of the source, as always). I like their Compressor more than their Reverb, but still well worth having in your toolbox.

If you want a lot of control on the EQ going in/out of a Reverb plugin, I might suggest getting Ambience.
Maybe too much control for some, but another free option.
Yet another great set of plugins is ReaPlugs (from Reaper). Another 'should have' plugin set I'd want to see in any DAW I work in.


Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
RealBand
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
Thanks for the suggestions. KJAERHUS is no longer available but Voxengo is.

How did you folks learn about plug ins? Are there books or did you just experiment?


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
RealBand
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Originally Posted By: 2bSolo
Thanks for the suggestions. KJAERHUS is no longer available but Voxengo is.

How did you folks learn about plug ins? Are there books or did you just experiment?


Answer: PG Music Forums. Years ago.


Does the noise in your head bother me ?
RealBand
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,302
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,302
Originally Posted By: jford
You can double a track, but if you do, you should offset it a little bit to avoid the phasing Herb talked about.



If you never offset it, it remains exactly in phase and the only difference is that the track now sounds louder. You get no stereo spread and you get no doubling or thickening with an exact copy in phase. If you want to have some fun.... do this, copy a track, and then find the "swap track phase" button and swap the track phase 180 degrees. Solo both tracks so they are the only ones playing and hit the playback button. You should hear silence since both should be canceling each other out. Now... raise the volume fader on one. See what happens. Return it to the exact same level. Now add reverb to one. Hit play. You should only hear the reverbed signal. One more test to do.... With both back in phase and no reverb.... move one of the tracks about 1ms from the other. Play them and listen to the phase interaction carefully. Now move that same track another millisecond and repeat. Move it again.... now, add a third track and put it in the middle between them in a timing manner, listen again. You will start to hear some very interesting things going on. Mostly things you do not want happening in your mix. This will teach you a lot about phase and how it affects the other exact signal and why you need to be aware constantly, of the issues that can arise from phase problems.

Actually, when you offset it, that's when you run into trouble. If you offset so far that phasing isn't an issue, you end up with a distinct echo which is often NOT what one is looking for. So the track is often moved just a few ticks on the time line. Essentially a few milliseconds. Now, you have opened the door to the phasing and comb-filtering issues to join the party. Since you are now "mixing" these two tracks together in your rig, you now have the algebraic equation happening that is changing millisecond by millisecond depending on which particular frequency is mixing at a given point. It is practically impossible to avoid entirely when copying tracks and offsetting them. Reverb also plays a part because it is extending the frequencies by a certain amount. It is lesser of the causes. The interaction of the tracks is the big issue.

This is why, the majority of engineers would prefer to have a clean recording of a vocal several times to do the doubling as opposed to a copy/paste which is faster and requires less time on the singers part. No matter how close a singer sings the track, it will never be an exact duplicate. There is still a danger of phasing and comb filtering issues to occur, so using this method isn't foolproof, but the issues are to a lesser degree and easier to deal with due to the imperfections between the several tracks. Using this method, one does not have to offset the tracks. The imperfections in pitch and timing, while very small with a good singer, will provide enough variation to allow the thickening and doubling the engineer is seeking. By keeping those secondary tracks well below the original or main lead vocal track by -10dB or more (engineer's call), and panning it to the left or right of center, (remember that the algebraic thing happens when 2 signals are mixed together. panning mitigates that to some degree) the minimal phasing is essentially buried in the mix and is for all intents and purposes, a non-issue in the final mix.

When I use thickening, I use 3 tracks. One panned 100% R, one 100% left, both of which are at least -10dB below the lead, and one centered and much louder. I have used a single vocal take and copied it for this purpose. And it's acceptable to do that when there's absolutely no chance that you can ever get another take from that singer. Then, you just have to do what you have to do.....although, if the results end up filled with issues and artifacts, the best option is to delete the offending copy tracks and simply go for a very nice clean, well eq'd and reverbed solo vocal track. It's not impossible to get.


Last edited by Guitarhacker; 03/29/17 02:13 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
RealBand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,580
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,580
Not disagreeing with you Herb, but I have had success by offsetting (not by much) with no resulting phasing effect and it definitely fattened the sound. Detuning can help a little too.

But most of the time, like you, I just record multiple versions of the vocal (as you indicated) to accomplish it; however, it is sometimes difficult to nail it each time and it's really a matter of how much time I have to do it.


John

Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD
Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA

BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK

http://www.sus4chord.com
RealBand
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
2bSolo Offline OP
Journeyman
OP Offline
Journeyman
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 464
You folks spent a lot of time explaining this to me. I really appreciate it. I am going to keep working on this track. It's my first original recorded on anything except a hardware DAW. When I finish, could I send it to a couple of you for suggestions and comments?


i5-3210 laptop. Win 10 Home. 2.5ghz, 64 bit. 6gb RAM. Focusrite Scarlet 2i2.
RealBand
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,753
Copy 2 times. Detune both copies. Pan left and right. Or, Voxengo's free Stereo Touch plugin have worked for me.

Or, copy 1 time. Voxengo's free Stereo Touch kind of heavy on the copy but the copy is turned down much lower with more reverb and a brighter or hall type reverb.

EQ off a lot of the lows on the copied tracks. Or at least EQ it differently.

Last edited by Tobias; 03/29/17 10:16 AM.

Does the noise in your head bother me ?
RealBand
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,609


Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

Happy Easter! Holiday Hours...

2024 is well underway - it's already Easter Weekend!

Our Customer Service hours this weekend are:

Friday, March 29: 8-4
Saturday, March 30: 8-4
Sunday, March 31: closed

Regular hours resume Monday, April 1st - no joke!

Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!

The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!

There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.

If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.

We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!

Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,402
Posts732,575
Members38,444
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
Descoward, danielsk, Mark Morgan, zagrajbarke, Ernest J
38,443 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 200
Al-David 132
DC Ron 115
rsdean 84
dcuny 83
Today's Birthdays
(charlie), WobblyGstring
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5