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Hi All I did a couple of Streetjelly concerts over the weekend and I'm increasingly unhappy with my guitar in the mix. For my blues material, I've improved the guitar sound with a slightly overdriven, reverbed and compressed sound for the solos and the same with less overdrive for the rhythm. I'm blessed to have a TC Electronic Nova as my guitar effects which sure helps. I'm not happy with my guitar sound for Jazz / Country / Folk material. Particularly the solo sounds and more acoustic type rhythm. Any suggestions? I'm thinking more reverb, maybe a bit of chorus - not sure about compression, how much or whether I even want it at all! I'm only using an electric (Fender Tele) and generally I use the middle or front pickup (except for blues). Ironically, as I thin out my BIAB backing tracks, I'm playing around with finger picking or combo pick and fingers. I'm also feeling less and less inclined to play rhythm guitar at all, although it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable - fake.  How does one compete with the likes of the pro players in BIAB? I'm panning the BIAB tracks and using BIAB itself live. Any thoughts/suggestions? All my effects switch automatically using midi, so have complex patch changes etc is not a big deal.
Last edited by lambada; 03/26/17 04:49 PM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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What guitar amp are you using?
If you are running the Nova with overdrive and distortion in the FX loop of an amp you'll get pretty bad overdrive tones. It can pretty much ruin your whole tone. Same goes for overdrive in front of a PA with no amp or cabinet simulation.
The Nova, as I understand is intended for the front of an amp. But, it probably sounds fantastic direct to PA or in an amps FX loop as long as you stay away from overdrive, distortion and keep any compression settings to a minimum.
To me the best tone is still a mic in front of speaker cabinet connected to a good tube amp. I've had some line 6 stuff that was really nice but seem to always go back to a tube amp no matter what. I have a Zoom G9.2tt and a POD X3 Live. Both have great tones and amp and cabinet simulators. But, they get used less than my ancient Boss ME-5 I've had since 1990. The ME-5 is all analog except for the delay, the patch programming and storage.
From what I understand the TC Nova's overdrive is analog (not digital) and should sound great in front of a good little tube amp.
Last edited by Tobias; 03/26/17 07:44 PM.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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BTW, your Tele has a middle pick up? Is it that Nashville Tele set up? I'm jonesing causing I was recently checking out the G&L versions of the 3 pick up Nashville Tele. Works like a Tele and/or a Strat and you can get Neck and Bridge together or all 3 pick ups at once too.
Some country stuff is going to require a good amount of compression at the front end of the amp. I add a slight amount of reverb and delay that stays on kind of quietly almost all the time. I got that idea from watching Joe Banomasa on YouTube. Seems to give it a little air and ambience.
Folk is probably very clean, maybe a little thin, not much mid-range, bass not to heavy, and kind of jangly but not too bright or shrill. Or, else aim for an acoustic guitar type sound.
I don't play jazz but too me a lot of it sounds like a bright single coil neck pick up with the tone knob turned down a bit. Not muddy but kind of dull and dry. So, you might find the jazz tones in the right pick up selection and the tone knobs on the guitar itself.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Hi I don't play live that often these days, but if I do I take my little MXR Overdrive and VOX Wah Wah and play through an amp provided by the club. If I'm doing a one man show I take my own PA. When I have played live with the Nova, I'd normally play through an amp although it has quite good speaker simulation for streaming purposes. The delays and reverb are wonderful. It is a beautiful piece of machinery and I mainly use it DI'd straight (left and right) into 2 mixer channels on the mixer and out of the mixer into an audio interface for streaming. I have few complaints with it's actual sounds, but more with getting it to sound right and sit nicely in the mix of the backing tracks when streaming live, particularly when doing rhythm guitar work. I might record some examples and get some feedback from you guys. I think it's probably lack of experience with setting up multi-effects (compression, tap delay detune etc) and also using it with BIAB realtracks that is the problem. Edit: I just saw your second post, and that's exactly the kind of suggestions I'm looking for.
Last edited by lambada; 03/26/17 10:40 PM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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I don't know anything about the components in your rig.
My first question would be is the guitar modeler capable of storing multiple presets? If so... set up and store one sound for each of the tone settings you need.
Second point.... in country, you don't hear hardly an chorus on anything. Keep compression light and reverb too. Country spans the gamut from super clean tele...thing Buck Owens to completely overdriven guitars in today's music. You have everything in between. Very few are using FX other then distortion pedals to augment their tone and some reverb to smooth the edges. That's literally all I ever use. A bit of verb and a very smooth subtle distortion tone pedal on my Fender Modern Tele. (3 PU's..MIC)
Jazz is very similar regarding guitar tone. Clean is the word of the day with some rolled off high end, cut in the low and accentuated mildly in the mids.
I have used a modeling amp in the past that was capable of storing presets. That made switching between tone settings fast and easy. I was playing in a church band and we would jump styles between songs. Twisting knobs to get there wasn't much of an option. Pushing a button of the foot switch was so much faster, and everything was dialed in perfectly. Since you are using midi to switch settings,...... waaa laaa, there you go. Use it to change your tone settings. Using technology is good when you're doing what you're doing. So eliminate the pedals that aren't midi controlled from your rig unless it's a mild general overall compression.
Folk.... I don't think you're using much electric in that. Getting a good, authentic acoustic sound isn't easy...especially if you're in a hurry and doing it all yourself. The best option, is to have a condenser mic set up and adjusted and turned down. All you need to do is grab the mic, move it into place and turn it up to the right volume.
How do you compete with the pro players in BB real tracks? You don't. You fit in with them. The more you practice your parts for smoothness and tone, the better you fit in. You don't need to be fancy to fit in with good players. Would I walk on stage with killer country pickers the likes of Vince Gill or Brad Paisley? Absolutely. Would I try to be fancy and outplay them..... oh heck no. I would play how I play, with confidence, and have the time of my life and play things in my style, with finesse, heart, and have fun doing it.
Remember that much of the tone you get from the cleaner electric sounds and especially the acoustic come as much, if not more, from the hands and fingers, than it does from the guitar and your mic setup.
It never ceases to amaze me that all these players I see have to have a ton of effects pedals to get the tone they want. When I bought my Mesa Boogie Studio 22w amp, it came with an interesting one page tone chart. By setting the controls of that one amp in different positions, you can dial in any tone from super clean glass shattering country Tele, to rolled off jazz, to smokey blues, to crunchy rock, to speaker ripping rock and roll to death metal shredding..... all from one amp with no pedals involved. They had about a dozen "preset" sound styles on that cheat sheet.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks Herb, also very useful. Mesa Boogie very nice. I agree with you re the midi and no footswitches. When streaming I only use the Nova via my Voicelive 2 - all controlled by midi. With a live band, generally just the overdrive pedal these days. I bought a volume pedal,but I haven't integrated that yet for live - that's pretty sad actually... The Nova has options to save up to 4 favourite settings for each effect, but I've tended just to create a patch and turn it off and on using midi. With the VoiceLive 2 I also turn on and off aspects of each patch with cc# commands. I'm not sure if the Nova's midi controls are that flexible. I'll check it out.
Thanks for the heads up re Country. For the folk, maybe I need to just use my acoustic. I have a pair of condenser mics that I could use to get ambiance or just use the vocal condenser mic. Food for thought.
Increasingly, I'm finding less is more with BIAB. Just last night I was switching to less busy RealDrum tracks and dropping Realtracks just to give everything a bit more space. The panning advice given here has been really helpful and mixing the levels of the tracks by gradually adding a track at a time to the drums with the drums as the reference 90. I'm finding there is something magical about the free Izotope Neutrino effect that makes everything jump out, sizzle and sound punchy. I couldn't hear it at first but now, I just kind of feel its presence on the individual BIAB tracks. Very weird. Some of the Realtracks /Realtrack combinations are way louder than others so I'm altering the overall volumes of those songs or moving them around in the set list to sort that. It can be quite disconcerting live!
Sorry if I'm rambling.
Last edited by lambada; 03/27/17 03:25 PM.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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For your folk guitar (yes use your acoustic!), you could likely use anything like an SM-57 or 58 near your fingers/pick and another mic a little further away and up the frets (maybe condenser but maybe not) .. experiment!
Getting a good acoustic guitar sound can be a challenge, but also lots of fun.
Maybe even put the condenser in front of the hole and an SM-57 way back on the frets .. depends on the guitar, the room, the player, the mix .. with a little effort you can usually find the sweet spot pretty quickly.
My initial effort is usually to get a good full sound from the track(s) in the first place and shape it later.
It's easier to remove sound than add what was never there.
My greatest struggles have always been with 12 strings; it is so complicated to get the right timbre/ringing/harmonics in the recording .. but I still have fun doing it.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I'd like to hear your examples when you get around to it.
I agree with GuitarHacker about using fewer pedals. I mostly use a clean channel and a slightly dirty/raspy channel along with the delay/reverb on my amp. I have a Fender SuperChamp and a Fender Princeton Chorus that both have a Delay/Reverb combo setting that stays on quite most of the time.
I use different pick up combinations, the volume and tone knobs on the guitar and switch between clean and raspy channel for pretty much all the tone I need for country and classic rock including soloes.
My multi FX pedal boards sit unused almost all the time. That is unless I get called to just play lead guitar which isn't too often anymore.
Actually the Fender Princeton Chorus is not mine. No body knows who owns it. It was left behind in the storage room at a church for about 4 years. My friend borrowed it about 2 years after that and then loaned it to me. But, I don't mind being steward of it until the owner wants it back. Although it's solid state I have zero complaints about it's tone. I'd swear it was "almost" a tube amp if I didn't know better.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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I've had a bit of a fiddle with these 2 patches and increased the reverb and reduced the compression on the Rhythm patch. There would be more patches if I hadn't got side tracked in BIAB. I found I can't use the audio record in BIAB because of the delay between the mixer and the USB 3 audio output. There's a noticeable lag and nothing I altered in BIAB seemed to fix it. I think it improved when recording with ASIO rather than the default MME setting. So this is another new default. No idea how to fix it. I had the same problem when trying to create UserTracks in BIAB. Maybe I play out of time, but I don't think so. Frustrating. Anyway, that's the reason there's a video rather than an audio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9aP7-qFw7IThanks.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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The guitar is not very loud in the mix but the tone is good from what I can hear.
Do you have a way to live monitor your playing while recording?
You know, listen to your pedals and amp rather than the sound going through the computer and back out while. Or, would that sort of defeat the whole Streetjelly set up requirements? I've never done Streetjelly.
I don't know if the Zoom UAC-2 allows this but most recording interfaces have a mix/blend knob that lets you blend in your live sound (pre-tracking) along with the computers playback into the headphones.
Once your done tracking the DAW or BIAB lines up the new track with the others for play back and rendering.
I've also used a Y cable or any stereo FX pedal like a Boss Chorus pedal. One side goes to the interface and the other to an amp. Tilt the headphones off one ear.
Does the noise in your head bother me ?
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Yes, in retrospect, the lead (in particular) is too quiet. I have a tendency to play lead too quiet live as well. The boys are always turning me up. On Streetjelly, I monitor everything through headphones as I usually sing through a condenser mic and I don't want the sound of the guitar to bleed in on the vocals or upset my wife too much. Maybe, I should move in that direction as I think I tend to hold back on the singing as well with headphones on. I guess it can't be any worse than just my voice singing on its own. I've got monitors in the room so I could use an amp with them. Very cramped in Hong Kong and neighbours everywhere, above, below, close outside etc. Food for thought.
Windows 10 Home 20H2 Build 19042.487
BIAB 2021 (Build 818)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 3 Extreme, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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