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#406891 - 04/12/17 01:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 54
we've seen a lot of app updates, some of which are useful, some of which aren't, at least for me.
Most people would settle for intro, verse, chorus, ending, breaks. That's it.
I think most of us dig biab for the styles. And would be willing to invest more in style innovations and refinements.
Instead we're confronted with a needlessly complicated app, too few improvements in the styles department and still purchasing a package deal with tons of styles we don't want to use.
I'd love a barebones app for playing and every six months style updates as an in app purchase. I'd be more happy to invest in improvements to my style of choice, rather than fancy menus.
Barebones would be like a biab player: no soloists, no recording, no computer keyboard play along scales and so on. Songs, styles, jukebox, playing and conducting, that's all.
Anyone on the same page?


Edited by Dzjang (04/12/17 07:15 AM)

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#406892 - 04/12/17 01:56 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
doctormidi Offline
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Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 118
Loc: Torino, ITALY
Hi, I am definitely with you as regards style improvements over fancy menus developing.

Plus, let me add that i would pleasantly welcome more investment in new MIDI styles.

As Bob "Notes" Norton usually says, realtracks are beautiful pieces of music, but if you search for versatility, none can beat MIDI.

Just my two cents.

Antonio
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#406895 - 04/12/17 03:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 54
Doctormidi? I'll second that. Using Kontakt has rekindled my love for midi and I use it more and more!

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#406918 - 04/12/17 07:13 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: doctormidi]
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11066
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Antonio, I completely agree with you. MIDI styles have been overlooked for years.

{edit} - I've been using MIDI since the mid 1980s.


Edited by MarioD (04/12/17 07:14 AM)
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#406919 - 04/12/17 07:17 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
MarioD Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dzjang
Doctormidi? I'll second that. Using Kontakt has rekindled my love for midi and I use it more and more!


Kontakt is my go to VSTi. I have a lot of third party patches for it.

FWIW - Google/Bing free Kontakt sounds and you will find some good ones. Also google/bing free VSTis and you will find some great sounding synths.
_________________________
The only exercise I did this month was run out of money!

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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#406938 - 04/12/17 09:01 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 54
We should have a forum for biab midi users, since you have to resolve a lot of issues if you want to use kontakt or vst's.
Example: i dig the vintage abbey road drums from native instruments. But you have to change the settings for most keys (toms where biab expects an open hi-hat...) even though these drums are gm compatible.
For double bass there's great stuff in Bigcat's blog, suited for Kontakt. But there again, you have to remove key switches or halfway the bass changes from pizzicato to bow!

Nevertheless, a barebone Midi compatible non-audio biab would be great!

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#406947 - 04/12/17 09:29 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
MarioD Offline
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Posts: 11066
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Dzjang
We should have a forum for biab midi users, since you have to resolve a lot of issues if you want to use kontakt or vst's.
Example: i dig the vintage abbey road drums from native instruments. But you have to change the settings for most keys (toms where biab expects an open hi-hat...) even though these drums are gm compatible.
For double bass there's great stuff in Bigcat's blog, suited for Kontakt. But there again, you have to remove key switches or halfway the bass changes from pizzicato to bow!

Nevertheless, a barebone Midi compatible non-audio biab would be great!



I agree about a PGMusic MIDI users forum. This should include BiaB and RB.

I would agree to a BiaB MIDI with RT availability. This would include all of the MIDI stuff, (styles, super MIDI tracks etc) and have the ability to purchase and use RTs. On occasion I use RTs and I would hate to loose that function. This MIDI version would not come with any RTs.

If you post them on the wishlist forum I will +1 them.
_________________________
The only exercise I did this month was run out of money!

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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#407058 - 04/12/17 07:46 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
J. Larry Offline
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Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 488
Count me in, too, for a simpler approach to everything. I prefer real styles over midi. All I need for what I do is a basic chord chart, with lyrics, and access to the mixer. My use for BIAB is live play. I’ve used the program for years, with little exploration of all the features. It’s too intimidating. Just give me a realistic-sounding rhythm section and I’m happy.

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#407069 - 04/12/17 10:59 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
LtKojak Offline
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Registered: 12/26/11
Posts: 229
Loc: Milano, Italy
Funny what you all say about a "wishing well" program to do all that... when such a program does actually exist: it's called "Real band", and you all already own it.

Carry on... wink

EDIT: jokes put aside: that's the program you all should take a look: Tracktion Waveform

https://www.tracktion.com/products/waveform

HTH,




Edited by LtKojak (04/12/17 11:01 PM)
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#407105 - 04/13/17 05:40 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4400
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I use both MIDI and Real Styles, but I would guess I'm over 90% MIDI.

With good sound modules you can get MIDI to sound almost as good as the real thing. Definitely close enough for the listening audience.

But MIDI is thousands of times more editable than the RTs. Simple things like perhaps you would like that guitar to sound more like a Telecaster, or a Strat, or a Jazz Box? Easy, two clicks. ... Got a note in the comp clashing with the melody? Move it down an octave, change it, or remove it. ... Want a signature kick in the song? More work involved by impossible in RTs. ... Want to change that ride cymbal to a cowbell? click and drag ... thousands more examples can be listed but you get the idea.

We musicians care about tone, and we should, but the public is not so picky. After all they listen on low bit rate mp3s, before than those awful cassettes, worse than that 8 track machines and before that 45RPM records. There have always been higher fidelity recordings available at about the same price.

And what is good tone anyway? The two top rated jazz tenor saxophonists of the 20th century were John Coltrane and Stan Getz. They played the same model saxophone, Selmer Mark VI. Play their recordings back to back and most non-musician casual listeners will think they are not even playing the same instrument, much less make and model.

And since there are a lot of guitar players here, who has/had the best guitar tone? Hendrix? Kath? Slash? Page? Santana? Benson? Hall? Pass? Beck? Les Paul? Iommi? Gale? Clapton? Burrell? Lukather? Ritenour? Dimebag? Abercrombie? Barre? Skunk? Klugh? Gannon? Ellis? Blackmore? Paisley? BB, Albert or Freddie King? Wylde? Orianthi? Remler? Muddy? Caiola? Django? Setzer? Scofield? Pizzarelli? McLaughlin? Metheny? and so on.

They have very different tone and are so famous we know most of them by one name. And on which guitar are we talking about. Jimmy Page played better on his el-cheapo Danelectro than I can on my Parker.

And voice? Dr. John? Stevie Nicks? John Lennon? Blossom Dearie? There are plenty of singers with bad to mediocre voices that sell zillions of recordings. Why? They have great expression, and the expression connects with the audience, not the tone.

So tone is important, but not the holy grail. Expression trumps tone hands down, and you can manipulate MIDI to get more different types of expression than you can an audio recording.

Some day we may be able to manipulate audio like we can MIDI, and as the tools for editing audio improve, I'll use audio more, but right now it's mostly MIDI.

Insights and incites by Notes
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#407214 - 04/13/17 09:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 54
@notes Norton: expression trumps tone! You are so right. Great examples: Coltrane-Getz, Jimmy Page on Danelectro. smile Same goes for early Jarrett on a clunky piano, Miles' Plugged Nickel where every musician shines despite amateuristic recording or early Nirvana on a cheap weird sounding amp.

I found myself editing a lot of midi drum styles, mostly altering velocities for added dynamics, rather than changing the groove itself. Adjusting the bass part is more difficult.

the "new" midi to styles function really analyses the chords and respects the dynamics better. Importing a great midi song with a more sophisticated rhythm section gives good results. But I'm no,drummer or bass player, so...

I truly believe better and more expressive styles, including more modern grooves (Joshua Redman's band, Brian Blade, Manu Katche, Roy Haynes, Danny Gottlieb, Dave Holland, Christian McBride) would be worth good money for the live players and lovers of daily practicing. Those same beats, regardless of them being rt or midi, get stale after some time and ruin your practicing. Charles Lloyd could have a whole set of ballads and his band could play it in such different ways that it would sound fresh on every tune.

I regret pgmusic producing new styles while mostly recycling drum and bass styles over 10 yrs old. As a player you feel a little betrayed. Certainly if you're a guitarist/pianist: you stick with drum and bass most of the time, don't you? So the new styles reveal themselves fast as being a rehash of the same old, same old.

An example: as a practicing musician, you probably have 30 or more Bop tunes to rehearse. There's only three bass midi styles and two midi bass super tracks in a really fast tempo and that bores you to death. Same with drums. Same with bossas, swing, "modern" jazz, ballads.

Variety, different feels, dynamics and being able to use your vst's and kontakt libraries 'd be grand!





Edited by Dzjang (04/13/17 09:52 PM)

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#407216 - 04/13/17 09:39 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17323
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Dzjang, I enjoyed that last post because you have a most eclectic knowledge of music, by citing that combination of names.

Carry on.

I don't know which feature of BIAB I would be willing to give up, though. I use so many. The addition of a RealTrack to mostly MIDI tracks can do wonders, and vice versa.
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BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#407219 - 04/13/17 09:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 54
@LtKojak, haha.
Your link to Tracktion Waveform? It gives you a chord progression in one key. But most of us are way more sophisticated than that, :))) you should check our deft sense of harmony. I'd go all tritone on this app!

As for jazz styles, they seem to have more than one! But no more than ten. Pgmusic would rip this app to shreds.

Imagine: you're practicing a song (as you should, because Mark Levine told you so!) in all twelve keys and that one pattern keeps repeating itself in all keys. You'd go medieval on it anytime soon.

Sadly, this happens in biab too: playing in twelve keys and hearing the same bass line over and over again makes you sad, lonely, resentful and overeating, possibly even turning to illegal substance use.

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#407223 - 04/13/17 10:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Dzjang Offline
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Registered: 11/05/16
Posts: 54
@Matt: what features to give up on, I get what you're saying.

Maybe it's just me? Most of the time (98%) you'd be rehearsing for a band you play in or refining your chops or trying out new lines, triad pairs maybe? Who needs all the fancy? Recording audio? I have an app for that, smile

But I'm mostly referring to styles. Much as I dig rock, reggae or country, rnb and electro. I never use it. Variety to me is more variety in the style I practice. Same would be true for a country player who sees 150 country styles, but only discovers after,a while that the same ten bass and drum styles have been applied to all of them, over and over.

So, I'd like some basic reggae styles, but don't have me pay for reggae updates I don't use. While, on the other hand, I'd go all Kim-Kardashian if totally new styles from the ground up, including drums and bass, would appear in the store. I'd spend some money on that. Because it would make me happy! And fun to be around! And cuz it would land me my own reality show in prime time!

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#407225 - 04/13/17 10:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17323
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
True, I use many other software programs to do certain functions BIAB can also do: recording, notation, and sequencing come immediately to mind.

The request for more variety in bass tracks for certain genres has been made in the Wishlist (maybe by you)? Perhaps head there and give it some support with specific suggestions.
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BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#407226 - 04/13/17 10:41 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
LtKojak Offline
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Registered: 12/26/11
Posts: 229
Loc: Milano, Italy
Originally Posted By: Dzjang
Your link to Tracktion Waveform? It gives you a chord progression in one key. But most of us are way more sophisticated than that

The gave just a tiny example showing the very basic function of what the tool can do. If you care to watch again, you'll see an impressive array of different chord progressions, which you can alter, add, subtract, create your own, and chain'em in any way you want. Kinda automated style maker that will be just as simple or sophisticated as your own self want it to be.
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Milano, Italy
https://soundcloud.com/theodore-kojak/tracks
Hy-Bro Test Sound Files

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#407334 - 04/14/17 11:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
fiddler2007 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/07
Posts: 737
Originally Posted By: Dzjang
@Matt: .......... Same would be true for a country player who sees 150 country styles, but only discovers after a while that the same ten bass and drum styles have been applied to all of them, over and over .... So, I'd like some basic reggae styles, but don't have me pay for reggae updates I don't use .....

My feelings too .... Definitely the MIDI department of BIAB seems to be at a standstill for years compared to MIDI editors and even audio tools f.i. Cubase has. For MIDI: RapidComposer, Onyx Arranger, Style enhancer, and surely quite a quite few more are far ahead ... Besides if you use the GM functions of HalionSonic or the now declared dead Hypersonic VSTs, the MIDI audio-related sample stuff can sound quite good at times, especially compared to BIAB's Coyote wavetable synth. BIAB's drum editor hasn't changed very much since Atari-days LoL. How's about some groove-timing functions there? EZ drummer is far ahead as prerecorded MIDI-drum tool arranger. The strength of BIAB still is the quickly translation of a bunch of typed chords into an arrangement ... oops, ah, alas there's this weird verse-chorus construction and the annoying limited time sign-measures versus bar counting system again and again in each "update". .... F

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#407335 - 04/14/17 11:43 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
jford Online   content
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10488
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Cakewalk Sonar just enhanced their MIDI Piano Roll Tools as well.
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#407373 - 04/14/17 03:15 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: jford]
Pipeline Offline
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Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2508
That's why I love using RapidComposerVSTi with Biab/RB
it expands the midi capabilities way beyond Biab's.
You can have any midi/phrases where you want them and not just take whatever BB generates where it generates.
So you can save Biab midi/MSTs to a phrase.
As many chords per bar as you like.
Change Signature/Scale anywhere.
Store Virtual Instrument keyswitches within a phrase that will re-fit anywhere to any chord/scale.

I love RealTracks but as Bob, Mario and others state, more versatility with midi.
That's why I'm trying to get PG to make the RealCharts/Tabs usable with Virtual Instruments same as Ample Sound can play Guitar Pro Tab and save measures to Riffs.
So the Articulations in Control 85 that represent Bends, slides, Hammer On, Pull Off (Vibrato could be added) can be converted to custom keyswitches or midi bend info for your Virtual Instruments.
Also Export the TAB in the MXML.
You could have a Sax play a guitar piece as a complement or answer to a guitar.
You can create custom Solos within the DI RealTracks by adding a DI Virtual Instrument to any section of RealTrack.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404310

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=406203

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#407378 - 04/14/17 03:34 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Go Dutch! Barebones Biab and in-app style purchasing? I'm into biab for the music, not for the featu [Re: Dzjang]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6505
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Dzjang
Variety, different feels, dynamics and being able to use your vst's and kontakt libraries 'd be grand!


To me there's a contradiction here. Here it is:

1. Users want simple.
2. Simple is General Midi.
3. Biab is therefore based on GM.
4. The midi styles are GM.
5. GM does not allow for all the dynamics and expression you're talking about.

GM is the limitation here. It's not just the basic sound quality of a high end synth vs a cheap GM synth, as you've written about it's also the nuances or expression of the midi "performance".

Creating better styles that would work well with non GM softsynths wouldn't make any difference. The reason is just because a high end softsynth is designed to respond to very subtle controls that will make a part sound much more authentic, Biab is not capable of sending those commands because they're not part of the GM spec.

This is why if you really want that level of control you can start with basic Biab style tracks but you then need to move them to a DAW where you can have that level of control over your synths.

This is not simple or fast or easy. This takes us full circle to 1 and 2 above.

If you want PG to revamp Biab to incorporate some of the new advanced midi features being talked about great, put those ideas in the Wishlist forum. Peter has surprised us before.

Bob
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