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#427638 08/26/17 04:08 AM
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Hi all, Having a hard time with Fadeouts. I see that there's an audio effect for it, but its speed doesn't look controllable, and it's too fast- plus it's destructive, right? Alters the wave permanently. I'd rather not do a manual master fade during mixdown, since I didn't leave myself enough of a tail. Sooo, I'm trying to use nodes. I keep getting crashes while dragging them, not always, but too often. And, Going +1 to -64 is also too fast of a drop-off. I like the effect I'm getting with a curve of multiple nodes at -16, -24, -32, -40 in between, but that's a lot of work and it looks like I need to repeat it for every track. Is there any easier way? As I'm not ready to try mixdown for the first time yet and am just preparing for it, I can automate the master fade, right? Again, not sure I could get a smooth enough result by hand. Thanks all!


Best, Warren

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Warren Keller #427740 08/26/17 03:46 PM
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You can use nodes to do a long fade out. Just create two nodes where you want the fade out to begin and as you lower the second node from +1 to -64, slide it toward the end of the song. You can also use the Master Fader on the Mixer Screen.


Charlie


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Warren Keller #427903 08/28/17 03:29 AM
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Thanks, Yes I know Charlie, but it's too rapid a dropoff. As I said, I created a curve to make it sound more natural. That got unmanageable, 'cause you'd have to do this for every track- no? And right, I'm aware of the manual fade as I mentioned, but wanted to avoid it as it's a tricky fade. Thanks!

Last edited by Warren Keller; 08/30/17 05:17 PM.

Best, Warren

Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist/Producer
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Warren Keller #428362 08/31/17 05:02 PM
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I think something like Audacity is the ticket for this, and other mastering tasks. Thanks guys!


Best, Warren

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Warren Keller #428419 09/01/17 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: Warren Keller
I think something like Audacity is the ticket for this, and other mastering tasks. Thanks guys!


Audacity will work just fine for fadeouts and trimming/cleaning up the intros and outros and is a tool I use sometimes as well. However, for the benefit of others who may also be having issues, I don't want to leave this discussion with the impression that RB cannot make a clean fade out or is not up to the task of mastering a track as efficiently as Audacity or any other DAW. Let me explain a bit more for clarification. My comments are not intended to influence your personal workflow or indicate your workflow to be in some manner wrong. I'm giving additional information that others may find useful.

First, a node fade out from the tracks screen can be any length you desire. It can be a straight line or as you mentioned, made to curve. It can be a slow fade or a rapid fade. How the fade out is created determines the length of the fade. You do have to manually create the fade for each track from this screen as far as I Know.

You can fade all of the tracks uniformly from the Mixer Screen by using the Record ONLY Mixer Moves button. For instance, if you have a 32 bar song and wish to fade the song starting at bar 24 do the following.

Set your cursor at Bar 24.

Click on the Record ONLY Mixer Moves button.

There will be a 4 bar count in and recording will begin.

With your mouse, complete your fade using the Master Fader located in the center window.

Stop the recording and if you're satisfied with your fader movements, save the recording.

Reset the Master Fader back to full scale.

Place your cursor at a point prior to Bar 24 and hit the Play Button to review the fade out.

Review the fade out. Notice, rather than the Master Fader moving downward, all the track faders individually and uniformly complete the fade out sequence.

If you are not satisfied with the fade, hit the delete button to remove all recorded fader movements and repeat the process. Be aware this removes all of the saved Mixer recorded sequences and everything has to be done over.


Regarding Trimming tracks and Mastering, RealBand can cut/paste and has very good stock compressors, eq, and limiters to clean up and Master your song without having to export the song to Audacity or another DAW.

With practice and becoming familiar with the program, most users will likely find these tasks are easier and faster to do from within RB rather than moving to another DAW or Audacity. RealBand is not limited to only the stock plug ins and there are many high quality plug ins available that work with RealBand. RealBand also works much better than Audacity with MIDI.

Charlie


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Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 09/01/17 09:23 AM.

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Charlie Fogle #428867 09/05/17 11:47 AM
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Thanks for this Charlie.


Best, Warren

Warren A. Keller- Woodwindist/Producer
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Warren Keller #428872 09/05/17 01:00 PM
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Another way, which I started with way back when, was to make a copy of the song (to preserve existing) and hard write fades using the Edit-Gain Change plugin.
You can try it, undo, try it again, add, undo again, etc.

You can also highlight a given section of multiple tracks and fade from 100% to 80% .. then highlight the rest of the ending and fade from the pre-mentioned 80 down to zero .. or any multiple combinations of fades, which can create a an implied curve.

Just another way to do it (old school) .. lots of options.

Many times I'd get the mix done, render to stereo wav then work on fades (even if still in RB with a wav file).

Those hard write edits mentioned above are un-doable until you reach your limit or save the file.. so you can undo and try various fades quickly.


Make your sound your own!
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Warren Keller #428873 09/05/17 01:18 PM
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You can get Reaper Download it is free to try n try, it is very smooth and responsive and you won't get crashes like RB.



The best way to use RB is like this, so you are just using it to generate the tracks you need and not putting any other load on it:
ReWire RealBand/PT


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Pipeline #428930 09/06/17 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
You can get Reaper Download it is free to try n try, it is very smooth and responsive and you won't get crashes like RB.



Sonar and I think most other DAWs have a similar approach to fade ins and outs as Reaper's technique. In Sonar I fade in and out each individual instruments where I want, bounce the entire song to one stereo wav, then fade out the ending. I find this workflow works best for me but YMMV.


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Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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Warren Keller #428940 09/06/17 04:42 AM
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Pipeline, your comments and examples are very good but what crashes? I use RB for lots of things and I don't get crashes. Some folks write about crashes all the time and I have no idea what they're talking about except to say it's probably user error.

As far as the OP's question about fade outs I've been using the Gain Change Fade Out option for years. All you do is highlight the part of the track you want to fade, right click and select Audio Effects then at the bottom of the menu list it says Fade Out. Click on that and the window opens giving you all the different options for the fade. That's pretty basic and simple dontcha think?

Why would you need another DAW for this? A couple of mouse clicks and you're there and I don't get crashes. If you're getting crashes from using this Fade Out utility then post it as a bug so we all can test it.

Bob


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jazzmammal #428969 09/06/17 10:03 AM
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Quote:
..what crashes? I use RB for lots of things and I don't get crashes. Some folks write about crashes all the time and I have no idea what they're talking about except to say it's probably user error.


It would definitely be user error, as I found if I hold my tongue the wrong way when I click something I get a crash.

Is the Audio Effects.. > Fade Out destructive or non destructive ?
are the Volume Nodes destructive or non destructive ?

Old timers seem to plod along with RealBand, don't like change and can't vision anything better, though the rest of the digital audio market is going ahead in leaps and bounds, new ideas and honest criticism have always been jumped on in the forum for as long as I can remember, so I would say that's why RB is still where it is.
I saw back in the forum where someone suggested a solo button for each track and was jumped on.
Rather than the old users taking constructive criticism the new users are got rid of never to return.

If users say there is nothing wrong with RB, it is a modern DAW, they are living way in the past and out of touch.

jazzmammal #428973 09/06/17 10:23 AM
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If you want to see how things should work go to the RapidComposer v3 Beta Feedback And Discussion (Bugs, Features, Suggestions) forum and watch how it works, it just flows, bugs are reported and fixed, new features are suggested and implemented overnight, not ten years down the track.
The Win & Mac versions are the same and released at the same time with Cross-Platform app development.

I said this years back programming language upgrade delphi to c++ and now Apple have announced Mac OS X will only run 64bit apps in 2018.

Pipeline #429018 09/06/17 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pipeline
If users say there is nothing wrong with RB, it is a modern DAW, they are living way in the past and out of touch.


Ok, so now you're joining the "jumping to conclusions without the facts" gang? Isn't there enough of that in DC right now? Did I say RB is a modern DAW and there's nothing wrong with it? No and No.

I responded to one EXACT point and that was your comment about crashes in a thread asking about fade outs. That's it.

And I'll ask you again, if you've had crashes using RB to do a fade out then report it as a bug and we'll all have a look. As a matter of fact if you've had consistent reproducible crashes using ANY function in RB report it. All I can say is I haven't and I'll work it pretty hard but I'm not continually trying to kludge some kind of rewire thing it was not designed for and is not in the documentation. To be fair, I find your examples of that sort of thing very interesting and encourage you to keep it up but then don't post complaints about crashes. Run RB completely clean without any of that and then see about crashes.

You're also absolutely correct about old folks and old thinking. All I can say to that is have you read most of the posts in these forums around here? Not all but a quite a few. Lots of retirees who know very little about this stuff just trying to have a little fun. Most have absolutely zero clue about what you're talking about. They think the Coyote Wavetable sounds great and are trying to figure out where "One" is ya know? Rewire sounds like you're repairing a fence. And to be clear, that's perfectly OK with me, I'm not trying to preach to them or anything like that and why are they here? Because Biab is accessable, it doesn't look too complicated and neither does Real Band.

You've said it yourself and I completely agree, if you need and want the higher end DAW functions then generate whatever tracks you need in RB and export them to your DAW of choice.

Bob


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jazzmammal #429023 09/06/17 08:50 PM
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"Why would you need another DAW for this?" that's a destructive audio method.
I have spent years since it's release with RB using it every day and getting crashes after crashes not matter what machine or audio device.
If you have not had any crashes and so many others have it doesn't mean it's a user error.
I have spent years trying to get things fixed and added.
If you suggest new things here you get attacked from other users saying "why would you need that, there is no problem with how it is", "You can't do that" etc......
I have had years n years of that.
It seems to be a culture here, look at it all in programming language upgrade delphi to c++.
I now find myself worn out and depleted these days from all of this ^*^%$#.
I will say again I think that is why RB is still where it is.

But, hey, I still go out of my way to help users.

In the RapidComposer forum you get 0 of that ^*^%$#, 0, and I don't get stressed and worn out from it, it's a pleasure laugh

Just hope at the end of the this year there is a quantum leap bringing things up to a higher level !

Warren Keller #429031 09/07/17 01:53 AM
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Pipeline

Just like to say your posts and service are greatly appreciated on this forum.

I for one search the forum constantly before I post hoping my query has been discussed before.

And you are always active and very informative, in your description, and screens, so thank you for all you've helped including me.

Big time.


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https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases

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Quote:
I have spent years since it's release with RB using it every day and getting crashes after crashes not matter what machine or audio device.


Pipeline, please. You are very helpful and it is appreciated just try to stay on point, ok?

I'm a beta tester. What crashes?

You know the drill.

Bob


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Warren Keller #435654 10/28/17 05:38 AM
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I have a problem using the gain nodes in Realband 2017 ver 7 also. The gain nodes work properly when listening to the song in realband but have no effect on the rendered song.

I have submitted this problem to the help desk several months ago and they confirmed it as a bug but I have not heard anything back from them. If I render the same song multiple times, occasionally I will get a wave file with the desired fade in/out effects that I am trying for. It is very frustrating to say the least. I have gone back to using the old school technique that rharv mentioned above.

Does anyone else have this problem of the gain nodes not working?


Del
Warren Keller #435742 10/28/17 04:21 PM
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Del,

Have you installed build 8 to see if the problem persists with the update?

http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm

Regards,
Noel




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Noel96 #435779 10/29/17 07:06 AM
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Noel, thank you for your reply.

I installed build 8 this morning and gave it a try with a new .seq file. This time I'm using _GRVYPNO - Groovy Piano Pop style and testing the gain nodes on the real tracks only.

I found the BB Real Strings 686 - Organ track doesn't care what level the gain node is set. I have it set to -64 db and still hear the organ unless the channel is muted. I can move the volume slider on the track and hear the change but the gain node has zero effect even when playing the song within Realband.

When I render the song, the gain node seems to work for the piano track and the BB Real Bass track.

This problem really has me stumped.


Del
Warren Keller #435855 10/30/17 12:01 AM
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Del,

Thanks for the extra information.

I tried both the Gain and the Volume nodes on the organ track in _GRVYPNO and the result was the same as you. Just like you said, the nodes work fine within the program but they do not translate to the render. I've tried them with builds 8, 7 and 4 and the behaviour is identical.

From what you say, Support know about this. Which is good. Sooner or later there will be a fix.

Regards,
Noel




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Warren Keller #435888 10/30/17 04:21 AM
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Noel and Del,

I also entered a chord progression and generated an 18 bar song using the _GRVYPNO style. Initially I had the same results of rendering without the fades result you experienced.

I inserted nodes to fade each track except the strumming guitar starting at bar 16 and fade to -64 at bar 17 allowing only the strumming guitar to play through bar 18. I did a gain change to -96 with audio effects at bar 16 through bar 18 to mute the drums.

I went to the beginning of the song and for each track I placed a node on the node line just before any audio began playing. I also right clicked each track after doing this procedure and selected the clean all nodes option.

The song then played correctly and also rendered correctly for me.


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Charlie Fogle #435889 10/30/17 04:53 AM
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Noel & Charlie,
Thank you for the additional information and verification of this issue.

After reading Charlie's post I went back to my test song and did a 'cleanup node' for the organ track. This didn't have any effect. I then placed an additional node point on the -64 db line for the organ track and that seemed to do the trick. Now I have one node point at -1 bar and one at the 0 bar and I don't hear the organ track playing.

I will test this some more and try adding additional node points on the tracks and using the 'cleanup node' option to see if this will work for me. It looks like a neat feature if I can get it to work reliably.

I'll go back to my original song and see if it will work there. I'll add to this post after I finish testing.

Thanks again for your help!


Del
Del #435901 10/30/17 06:49 AM
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So I went back to my original .seq file and did 'cleanup node' on all my tracks. Inserted more -64 db node points at the beginning of each track and tested. Some tracks mute ok and others seem not to care where the gain node is set.

I then exported all of my audio tracks and saved each track as a .wav file. I created a new .seq file and imported each wave file. I now have a virgin .seq file with 4 of my guitar audio tracks, a drum track and a bass track all imported as .wav files individually into this new .seq file.

I set the gain node line on each track to -64 db and then adjusted the gain node so each track would come up at different times in the song. No joy.

Sometimes I can get a few of the tracks to behave correctly when I render 'merge audio and vst/dxi tracks to wave file' but most times it is like the tracks don't adhere to what the gain node is set to.

If I play the song in Realband, all of the gain node changes are heard correctly every time. The only way I can reliably get gain node changes into a wave file is to play the song in Realband while capturing the output sound in another program such as wavepad.

This really sucks!

I am going back to the old school way of making the fade in and fade out through the 'audio effect/gain change'. The gain node feature isn't ready for prime time in my opinion.


Del
Del #435907 10/30/17 07:46 AM
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I resubmitted this problem to the help desk. They said my original email about this issue was overlooked.


Del
Del #435924 10/30/17 08:56 AM
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Sorry that cleaning the nodes function didn't work reliably for you. I tested to see if it worked and did not pursue if it was repeatedly reliable. Over time and different versions and updates I've had issues come and go and the clean nodes has usually corrected the issue for me until a new version or update came about that corrected it.

Del, have you tried to do your fades from the mixer screen using the 'ALL' slider for the recorded channels across your song? Using the 'Record Mixer Moves Only' record selection, you can manually fade 16 channels simultaneously.

I've tried it on several different existing songs and also a different song with just an imported audio track that had no chord chart or generated RealTracks and it has worked flawlessly for me with both playback and rendered files. Just a thought you may want to try.

I noticed during playback from the Tracks window and a track expanded so the nodes line was visible, that though the sliders moved back and forth, there was no nodes on the node line as the sliders moved.


Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 10/30/17 08:58 AM.

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Charlie Fogle #435929 10/30/17 09:23 AM
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Hi Charlie,
Yes, I have used the 'record mixer moves only' function in the past. The thing I don't like about that method is there is no visual representation of the fade and it has been difficult for me to clear the mixer moves from a specific track if I wanted to make changes. I end up deleting the events one at a time and it just isn't convenient for me.


Del
Warren Keller #435941 10/30/17 10:45 AM
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I understand. If you try the "Read Only Mixer Moves" button again, let us know, there may be some pointers to offer that you may not have tried that will ease some the difficulties you encountered.


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Charlie Fogle #435974 10/30/17 05:15 PM
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Charlie and Noel,

I did a chat with the help desk and they sent me an email this afternoon about it. They said the problem was submitted in May so tech support is aware of the issue. They said to try changing the Gain Node to Volume Nodes so I gave that a try.

After several attempts, I think this is working much better using Volume Nodes. I can make multiple volume changes to the track and get rid of the changes easily if I don't like it. I had some problems with right clicking on the track and selecting Delete all Nodes, this didn't clear out the event list for that track reliably. Also used the Cleanup nodes function didn't help. I had to delete the events individually the first couple of times from every track but now it works OK on two different .seq files. I'm hearing the volume changes every time I render the tracks to a combined wave file so I am pretty happy.

Thank you very much for your assistance and hopefully the development team will find a fix for this.


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Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!

There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.

Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed!

Video: Volume Automation in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created a video to help you learn more about the Volume Automation options in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows.

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Volume Automation

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

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