Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
You need to be logged in to post on the forum
Topic Options
Index
#428549 - 09/02/17 02:29 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Need advice about digital audio timing, please
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16840
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
I've never worried much about timing in my digital audio equipment because I just make composer demos. If I need pro quality recordings, I go into a studio. However:

Recently I took a track (.WAV file) I made from BIAB into the studio, to use along with live recording. The BIAB tempo on that track was 122 bpm. Yet when the recording engineer loaded it into ProTools, we couldn't get the BIAB track to line up fully with a click track at 122 bpm. He then measured my track at 121.896. He used the Elastic Audio function of ProTools to align my track so we could proceed. So:

Why does this happen?

I've had other difficulties of tracks wandering slightly off time at the ends of songs, but never considered it to be caused by my equipment (see my signature). I just use 44.1 and either 16 or 24-bit recording, nothing so exotic like 98 or 192 where I might expect to run into problems.

If I used a word clock accessory, like this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SyncGen
would that prevent the problem?

Thanks for any advice!

ps Word clocks seem to come in all prices, with the basic one above priced at $100 but you can pay THOUSANDS! If you think I do need one and have recommendations, I'm listening.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 PC Audiophile; [& 2017 Mac]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

Top
#428567 - 09/02/17 05:05 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Might have something to do with SMPTE time coding

Top
#428569 - 09/02/17 07:04 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3461
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Matt,

I'm almost 100% sure program timing ultimately is based on hardware frequency timers embedded in your computer motherboard. The timers are synced to a crystal.

The clocks you mentioned are frequently used to sync multiple pieces of hardware tied into a common music system or network. For instance if you had a computer running ProTools, automated outboard effects and sound modules as well as an automated mixing desk along with an automated light show you would want all to be synced together by a common clock.

I believe you use Sonar as well as PG Music products. I don't know if Sonar can follow an external clock but I'm reasonably sure PG Music products can't. However if Sonar can follow an external clock then render a wave file in BiaB or RealBand then import into Sonar. With Sonar referencing the computer clock does it see any drift? With Sonar referencing an external clock is there any drift?

Perhaps your computer is drifting because the power supply is weak, hotter than normal because a fan is clogged, air vent is blocked or something similar.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (512) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Top
#428570 - 09/02/17 07:05 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16840
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Interesting suggestion, thanks Bob. To my knowledge there is no time code in any file.

I did some checking of my equipment today (looking for time clock connections) and discovered both my Focusrite Scarlett audio interface and my Roland Integra-7 MIDI synth were set to MASTER.

Stupid on my part.

I’ll see if fixing this makes a difference. The Focusrite 18i20 provides an output of time code (but not input) so I chose that as the Master and changed the Roland to Slave. None of my other equipment has a way to specify master or slave, so I assume it coordinates time clock signals via SP/DIF. Still, I wish I understood this better.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 PC Audiophile; [& 2017 Mac]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

Top
#428574 - 09/02/17 07:54 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16840
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Jim, thanks for this info. I’ll see what SONAR makes of it. I normally record BIAB files into Adobe Audition (cant render because I use a hardware MIDI synth).

Power supply runs cool and voltages check fine. But that’s a good thought.

I hope discovering my Settings error, described above, will help.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 PC Audiophile; [& 2017 Mac]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

Top
#428586 - 09/03/17 01:47 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Noel96 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 12614
Loc: Australia
Matt,

I regularly load wav files from BIAB/RB into Reaper and the tempo is always a perfect match. I haven't come across anything similar to your experience.

Was the problem consistent with both Realtracks and wavs created from MIDI tracks?

Regards,
Noel
_________________________
LINKS TO MY BIAB/RB SONGS


Top
#428598 - 09/03/17 04:59 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
BlueAttitude Offline
Expert

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 1099
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Could it be something going on with Adobe Audition??

The reason I mention that is because for recording my guitar parts I always use Adobe Audition V1.5, a program I've had forever but continue to use because I've never found anything better, including newer versions of Audition, for recording/editing audio. So in audition I have the BIAB WAV file and then record my guitar parts to separate WAV files.

I then import the audio WAV files of my guitar parts into reaper where I do the final mixing with all the individual BIAB files. Sometimes, but not always, the WAV file I created with audition is not in sync with the other files in the reaper project and I need to shift it around.
_________________________
Dave

Blue Attitude: Homepage, Latest song: No One Knows

Top
#428600 - 09/03/17 06:05 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16840
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Noel, I didn’t test that yet; it was just one file made from a RealTrack. Good to know you use BIAB files in a DAW and they are fine.

Dave, maybe. I also have Adobe Audition 1.5! I have version 3 also but still use 1.5, and that’s what I made my file with here. Along with BIAB, it’s my most-used audio program.

Thank you all. I’ll test a few of these ideas next time I go to the studio.

_________________________
BIAB 2018 PC Audiophile; [& 2017 Mac]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

Top
#428606 - 09/03/17 08:10 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Are you using SPDIf as an input into the focusrite? If so, and you have it set as the master then it's almost certain to be the culprit as it does not have a clock line like AES/EBU does as an electrical signal based digital audio hardware format. The focusrite will respond as a slave to the samples coming in on SPDIF even if they are not exactly paced at the right sample rate which can and does happen. Run the SMPTE potential interaction to ground as well. SMPTE deals in frames and PG Products used to brag about SMPTE time code compatability vs other products way back in the day.

Top
#428612 - 09/03/17 09:15 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: rockstar_not]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3461
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Matt,

Having the Focusrite set to master and Roland set to slave should help as both devices will be using the same timing clock. I think Rockstar_not is leading in the right direction with the sync code.

I did not find an option for SMPTE code but BiaB has a sync option at: "Options" > "Preferences ..." or "Ctrl + E" > "MIDI options" > "Output Sync/Start info" checkbox. The manual just states: Output Sync/Start info: Syncs Band-in-a-Box with an external sequencer.


Attachments
Midi Sync.jpg


_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (512) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Top
#428629 - 09/03/17 12:14 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16840
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Jim, I didn’t realize BIAB had anything to set, thanks.
EDIT: my checkbox was on, and I think it always has been; might be the default.

Scott, yes, the connection from the Integra to the Focusrite is SP/DIF. Maybe since the (MIDI only) signal is from the Integra into the Focusrite I should reverse and make the Integra the master. But I thought clock signals went both ways, so to speak, over SP/DIF. And what about audio, which has nothing to do with the Integra? That connects to the Focusrite via USB from the computer.

I discovered I have a BNC connector on the Focusrite but it’s output only. None of my other equipment has a word clock connection, so at least I answered my own question that an external word clock device won’t help me - nowhere to plug it in.


Edited by Matt Finley (09/03/17 12:45 PM)
_________________________
BIAB 2018 PC Audiophile; [& 2017 Mac]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

Top
#428671 - 09/03/17 05:11 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
SPDIF has no clock signal independent of the audio samples. If you have a device that outputs SPDIF digital audio going into a SPDIF input and set the receiving device as a slave in the ASIO control panel, the receiving device's internal clock will be ignored and the clock is interpreted from what is being received on the SPDIF input. I have an 18i8 and this was the only way I could use the SPDIF output from the Behringer Bass V-Amp Pro in my setup. I never checked if I had weird sample rate stuff like what you are describing but I did have issues with a pop in audio now and then that I could not trace down by looking at the audio waveforms like you can usually do. I assumed it was due to slaving the 18i8 to the SPDIF. Since selling the V-Amp I have not had the issue.

Top
#428674 - 09/03/17 05:18 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
One other note: SPDIF is not bidirectional. This is why you have input and output ports on the Focusrite. If you have good old analog audio outputs on the Roland and open inputs on the Focusrite, try that signal routing instead.

Top
#428677 - 09/03/17 06:33 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Pipeline Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2144
I add tracks to sessions recorded with drum machines but in the DAW they are never on the money.
Realband you can adjust to so many decimal points but not Biab.
If you have different tempos in a song you create a midi click track and drag that in the DAW first.

I generated a drum track in RB @121.896bpm (Top track)
and one in Biab @122bpm (Bottom track), then dragged them into Pro Tools & Reaper set to 122bpm.
See pics below.

Can you generate up a short 32bar drum track in Biab @122bpm and upload it.


Attachments
PT_WAV_Tempo-1920.jpg

REA_WAV_Tempo-1920.jpg



Top
#428679 - 09/03/17 06:44 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Need advice about digital audio timing, please [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16840
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Wow, good stuff guys, thank you. I’m digesting this.

I guess I have to decide whether I trust the clock on the Integra or the Focusrite more. If the Integra had a word clock input, I’d be all set but it doesn’t.

Scott, years ago I did experiments with my Roland Fantom XR connecting by analog versus SP/DIF and hands down, no comparison; the digital connection was much cleaner and ‘crisper’ sounding. I can try that test again.

Pipeline, your visual is very clear and much like what I experienced. I’m under a bunch of deadlines and won’t be in the studio again for 10 days. I have a lot to experiment with here before I try again.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 PC Audiophile; [& 2017 Mac]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


PG Music News
Beginners Help - Muting the Melody Notation

Visit our Beginners Forum, and you'll notice our amazing Forum Community helping out new program users!

Like this recent post regarding Muting the Melody Notation: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458716 - Forum user Matt Finley did a great job of answering the new program user!

Our Beginners Forum really is a great resource for new program users!

Q: When I have entered chords and notation for a song, is it possible to mute the notation and just have the chords playing? This would be helpful for when I just want the chord backing track but want to read the notation.

A: There are several ways to do this. The easiest is probably to use the Mixer window and change the volume slider to zero for the Melody track. Or, hit the Mute icon on the Mixer for the Melody Track.

Another way, with more control rather than all or nothing, is to press F5 at the measure where you want to mute, and select mute or change the volume to zero. Later, press F5 and select Return to Normal, or change the volume back.

Introducing... RealTracks Artists David Wise & Shelly Justice!

For the first time ever Band-in-a-Box® can generate backing vocals with some amazing "oohs" and "aahs" vocal arrangements with RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs! Add male or female parts by renowned Nashville vocalists David Wise and Shelly Justice, and you'll LOVE the results!

David and Shelly have recorded with many different artists, including CeCe Winans, Dolly Parton, Don Henley, Donnie McClurkin, Jeremy Camp, Lady Antebellum, OneRepublic, Steve Green, and more!

RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs includes a three-part, six-voice arrangement – which you can use all together in your song or individually for more delicate textures! Listen to the demos for RealTracks Set 278 here.

Purchase RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs for just $29 here. It's also included in the Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows PlusPAK, UltraPAK, and Audiophile Edition.

Learn more about Dave & Shelly when you visit their RealTracks Artist Bio page:
David Wise: http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.artists.php?a=150
Shelly Justice: http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.artists.php?a=151

#TechTipTuesday - Band-in-a-Box® Patch Updates

If you're ever experiencing an issue with your Band-in-a-Box program, make sure you have the most recent patch update for your version - this can be done at http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm.

Patch updates are released frequently, and are created by our development team to fix any reported bugs, tweak existing features within the program, update demos and other files as needed, and more!

To find out which version of the program you have, visit Help | About Band-in-a-Box within the program. You will see the full version number listing as:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2018 (512)

The number in parentheses is the build number. As you can see, my Band-in-a-Box is up to date and will continue to stay that way because I've selected "Automatically check for updates every 7 days" within the Help | Check for Updates.... option (you can set the number of days to a different number). This window will also look to see if you're version is up to date, so you don't technically have to visit http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm if you didn't want to!

Once you've installed your patch update (make sure the program is closed when you're doing this), give it another try - if you are still experiencing the same issue you can report it by contacting us directly, or you can post your result to the Forum thread that also announces the patch update, like our recent Band-in-a-Box 2018 Build 512 Update (Feb 15) post.

YouTube Find - How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES

Check out one of EricBlackmonGuitar's latest videos, How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES and you'll hear a great Band-in-a-Box backing track!

http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=blJPIX-9YbE

...and you'll also learn how to play blues with just a few notes!

A Little Bit Of Me Music Video!

A great music video created by forum user Floyd Jane! https://youtu.be/qPrejgnwb4M?t=3600

This song was featured in a detailed "The Birth of a Song" video created by Floyd Jane - watch the complete video here:
http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=qPrejgnwb4M

RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

Forum Stats
27139 Members
49 Forums
50329 Topics
413070 Posts

Max Online: 2434 @ 11/14/17 12:37 AM
Newest Members
smily, jeffkepner1, Robert Jordan, Hazyjames, Kozy

27138 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Matt Finley 252
Noel96 234
MarioD 175
VideoTrack 162
jford 140
eddie1261 127
Al-David 127
Janice & Bud 126
Jim Fogle 119
Belladonna 116
Today's Birthdays
gimmeagig