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#434424 - 10/20/17 05:48 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 3736
Loc: North Carolina
Hey,

To follow another thread in BIAB, there is tons of stuff to make "modern sounds" in BIAB.

Modern is about 4 things:

1. Bass.

2. Loops.

3. Kit Drums over loops.

4. Less is more.

The screenshots below show a "doctored" approach to a Rapstyle in BIAB. _Raprock.style

Using this a starting point, I killed the electric, and added a chill loop to the drums used here. (See picture.)

If too hard to see, I replaced some tracks in the style by going to Select Real Tracks in existing tracks in the style Raprock and adding:

Acoustic 703

Acoustic 2678

Chillout Loop Destiny 71



I might also open another BIAB file later and select Rock Hard LA drums ( I think that's what they are called) export those drums, and mix those in as well inside the DAW project for like the second verse to end.

I.e, you want to "pile percussion" on but do it in phases, and cut it up some so the drum mix is constantly changing. Your goal is to hypnotize people and keep them guessing. You want them to go into a trance.

And use some acoustic guitar. See the choices I have made in the screen shot but experiment. (I know they are hard to read in the screenshot so I gave them above.)

If at loss for chord progressions, go the demos of the techno, ballad, or electronica styles and study the chord progressions. Again, less is more. Keep listening to demos and study them until you see the very simple progressions that work.

Then, go to the mic like Mick Jagger and just start babbling some stuff until you hear stuff that sounds cool coming out of your mouth. Don't "try" to write modern lyrics. Just keep babbling away like Mick and have fun until you hear the right words coming out. You will know the hook when you hear it. Let the music tell you what to sing, not the other way around. Record what you babble. Keep the good stuff.

Then when you go to add additional tracks be SPARSE.

You maybe only need one other guitar or a simple catchy synth riff you can play yourself.

Keep it SIMPLE.

If you find yourself going over 6 or 7 tracks you have gone too far.

Put one cool riff left and one cool riff right and sing down the middle and you will be good.

That is modern.

Give it a whirl and experiment.

If you use electric, please load your free amplitube that came with your package and study the drop down presets by right clicking on the track.

See screenshot.

Trust me. All you need to make modern stuff is here, you just have to study it and mix some really simple stuff.

For EQ go to Variety of Sound (google it) and download their entire free package of VSTS if you are using Real Band. (They are 32 bit.) There is a great free reverb rack here and other tools to put on the drums and vox. Master them.

But some Variety of Sound BootEQ on the drums or a bus compressor with glue if you have good paid stuff.

You will be sounding like Beck in no time.

Just make the drums and bass pop and the acoustic snap.

Give us a cool synth riff with 5 notes and sing some happy lyrics that will make us smile.

The Grammy's are yours.

Peace out.



Attachments
Modern 1.jpg

Amps1.jpg


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#434432 - 10/20/17 07:41 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4417
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If David's explanation is too brief or you want a more in-depth look into a modern mix, you may enjoy this 6 hr and 5 min video of a complete individual track mix of a commercial release of a modern song titled Young and Restless

Charlie
_________________________
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#434434 - 10/20/17 08:07 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Thanks for the quickie tutorial David!! I really appreciate that!

I followed your steps and built the song using the starting style and tracks you listed. It sounds pretty cool but I'm not sure it sounds modern to me. More like classic backing track with a drum loop added! smile Any chance you'd share your 15-minute song so I can see what I might have done wrong or left out?

I know there is more I could do like changing it up all over the place, maybe changing styles or tracks in various places and of course strong pop vocals. But, unlike many classic songs that don't change it up a ton, these modern pop songs need a lot of additional work it would seem.

At the risk of sounding lazy(which I am!) I would love to see some modern styles that make use of part markers to bring in a variety of tracks/soloists and let BIAB do the heavy lifting to create my modern pop song! smile

For example, when I first bought BIAB I discovered a RealStyle called _BGMEDLY and it has 10 different part markers from a-j instead of the more common a and b. This allows me to quickly put together a classic bluegrass song that has two solo options for four different instruments and two options for no solos! I was hopeful and kinda expecting that many more RealStyles would be set up this way but it seems this one was an exception rather than a rule.

I will keep trying and see if changing out more tracks, changing the style at various points, etc. will get me closer to something I would consider modern. Thanks again and any follow up tips or examples would be greatly appreciated!

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#434436 - 10/20/17 08:22 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: Charlie Fogle]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: Charlie Fogle
If David's explanation is too brief or you want a more in-depth look into a modern mix, you may enjoy this 6 hr and 5 min video of a complete individual track mix of a commercial release of a modern song titled Young and Restless

Charlie

Thanks Charlie! That looks like a great video! It may be a bit too in-depth for me at this point at over 6 hours in length! smile I watched the first 15 minutes and can see it is very informative.

I guess my focus right now is seeing what I can do with BIAB to get closer to a modern sound without doing it all in my DAW. When I work on a classic bluegrass or country song in BIAB I find it outputs something that needs very little attention in the DAW. I'd love to see how close to that I could get with BIAB for modern pop songs.

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#434441 - 10/20/17 09:30 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Samuel Davis Offline
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Registered: 08/09/17
Posts: 356
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Thanks for the quickie tutorial David!! I really appreciate that!

I followed your steps and built the song using the starting style and tracks you listed. It sounds pretty cool but I'm not sure it sounds modern to me. More like classic backing track with a drum loop added! smile Any chance you'd share your 15-minute song so I can see what I might have done wrong or left out?

I know there is more I could do like changing it up all over the place, maybe changing styles or tracks in various places and of course strong pop vocals. But, unlike many classic songs that don't change it up a ton, these modern pop songs need a lot of additional work it would seem.

At the risk of sounding lazy(which I am!) I would love to see some modern styles that make use of part markers to bring in a variety of tracks/soloists and let BIAB do the heavy lifting to create my modern pop song! smile

For example, when I first bought BIAB I discovered a RealStyle called _BGMEDLY and it has 10 different part markers from a-j instead of the more common a and b. This allows me to quickly put together a classic bluegrass song that has two solo options for four different instruments and two options for no solos! I was hopeful and kinda expecting that many more RealStyles would be set up this way but it seems this one was an exception rather than a rule.

I will keep trying and see if changing out more tracks, changing the style at various points, etc. will get me closer to something I would consider modern. Thanks again and any follow up tips or examples would be greatly appreciated!


Well of coarse to get a great sound you have to put the work in to your DAW to cut up the parts and add effects. Even with my classic contry sounding tunes i do that. BIAB makes a lot of great sounding tracks but being auto generated it can only do so much on it's own. Knowing BIAB is only half the battle. You also need to know your DAW and how to manipulate the BIAB tracks within it.


Edited by Samuel Davis (10/20/17 09:31 PM)
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#434448 - 10/21/17 12:29 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
Samuel Davis Offline
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Registered: 08/09/17
Posts: 356
Loc: Florida
I decided To see what I could come up with on the fly when I got home from my gig tonight. I made this using 3 real tracks from BIAB. I exported the MIDI from the drum track to use with Groove Agent in my DAW (Cubase.) I then added 2 VST instruments and done in about 30 minutes. Took a little extra time for mixing, a quick master and upload to Soundcloud... so all together took about an hour.

https://soundcloud.com/user-742389722/slow-dark-modern-country

Keep in mind this is based off of a country rock song style and I am working with BIAB 2011 an I only have one realtrack add on at this time. When I get the full version in January I'm sure I'll be able to do much more.
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#434451 - 10/21/17 01:25 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
That is pretty cool Samuel! Thanks for the example and sharing how you built it. I could imagine some powerful country vocals coming in to make it shine!

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#434463 - 10/21/17 05:21 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: Samuel Davis]
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 3736
Loc: North Carolina
Great work Samuel.

That is exactly what I am talking about. That is the FIRST 20 to 30 minutes just like I said. Basic bed done. Samuel, thanks for doing the work for me man. smile Good job!

My quick tutorial was just to show ONE potential starting point.

To Samuel's response, BIAB simply gives you 80% or more of the sounds you will hear out there in the world today. "Modern" changes every day as a definition but right now it's about bass, kits drums mixed with loops, lots of cuts and splices, interesting arrangements where stuff keeps changing, sparse instrumentation, killer synth riffs and a lot of experimentation.

The other 20% comes in when you play you own riffs, on any instrument--most often synth or guitar. Acoustic is really big right now. People are taking a break on electric in most areas outside of country, at least for this month. Kind of a joke, but the days of 20 minute electric solos and guitar dominated music are over.

Experimentation means you have to work your butt off. Beck probably spends two days just finalizing the INITIAL percussion bed on a song. Maybe more.

You can't expect BIAB to have a style that you can just pull up and all of a sudden sound modern. If you do the "let me just find a style" thing then you WILL have a classic backing track which is the best they can do for you in this known universe. If you want to sound like an artist or "modern" you have to take the BIAB track, samples and loops into your DAW and work, work, work like a dog. It's what everyone else does.

I was just showing the very beginning of the work flow and one very simple example. Simple on purpose. The rest is up to you and your imagination.

It's what music is about.

Peace out.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
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#434473 - 10/21/17 06:41 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
You can't expect BIAB to have a style that you can just pull up and all of a sudden sound modern. If you do the "let me just find a style" thing then you WILL have a classic backing track which is the best they can do for you in this known universe.

This is what I have been assuming for the most part. With BIAB I can quickly enter chords, pick a style and output a relatively complete classic song. But not so much with modern music I guess.

Originally Posted By: David Snyder
You can't expect BIAB to have a style that you can just pull up and all of a sudden sound modern.

I bet that same sentiment could have been accurately expressed about bluegrass, country, rock and other classic styles before the implementation of RealTracks! Here's hoping they are able to get closer to the same result for more recent (modern) music in the future!

Thanks again for sharing your insights!

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#434475 - 10/21/17 07:02 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
David Snyder Offline
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Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 3736
Loc: North Carolina
Not necessarily.

There is a huge difference between "songs" and compositions.

A lot of country and classic rock and ballads use predictable song forms, song structures, chords and instruments. That is why BIAB can pull it off--in say Bluegrass.

Many "modern" songs as people refer to them (with a wide berth for definitions on what that means) are COMPOSITIONS. Meaning, they are pieced together.

There is no way BIAB will ever be able to take the place of your brain on the composing front. If you want to compose, you HAVE TO piece things together. BIAB just gives you the sounds.

I think the two different worlds are getting mixed up here and that's the problem.

Not to be sarcastic, please trust me I'm not, but what you have essentially just said is "If BIAB can give me classic bluegrass songs, why can't it give me classic modern songs?"

The very definitions don't match. I think the songs you are referring to (if I am guessing correctly) are compositions, and for that, you will have to simply work really hard for a really long time at your mixing board.

BUT, you can at least get started by locating some sounds in about 20 minutes. That's what I mean. The rest could take days. It takes days for everyone else.

Peace.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
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#434481 - 10/21/17 08:01 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5500
Loc: Chicago
Great points and discussion, very interesting. Thanks for providing this insight.
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#434487 - 10/21/17 09:19 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
what you have essentially just said is "If BIAB can give me classic bluegrass songs, why can't it give me classic modern songs?"


No, I am actually acknowledging that it cannot while expressing the wish that it could!

As an example, before BIAB you simply could not produce a bluegrass backing track without a great BG band. Then, BIAB, with RealTracks, delivered something really amazing. You can enter an appropriate chord progression, use the bgmedly style, leave space for vocals and quickly produce a bluegrass song with four separate instrument solos so authentic sounding that it fools even great BG players!

And I guarantee you if someone had said this was possible before RealTracks they would have been assured it was not and would never be possible. But the clever folks at PG did it!

If I am understanding what you and others are saying, BIAB cannot do that for modern music without additional work to, as you say, move it from a song to a composition. So, I can accept that (it was my original contention in the first place!)

But I also hope they can improve BIAB in this area in the future. In the same way RealStyles exist, they could have RealSets (or some such name) where multiple RealStyles are linked together and made as easy to use as clicking the part marker. Maybe a modern RealSet would include a pure acoustic set of RealTracks for V1, add in big drum loop for chorus, bring in some huge bass and more drums and drop out the acoustic for V2 and second chorus. I dunno how that would work out and it might end up being too specific but it would be an interesting direction for those of us who have less time to "tinker". And before someone says "stop being lazy, ya gotta put in the time", I'd remind them that by using BIAB at all they have already conceded they too are looking for shortcuts! laugh

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#434490 - 10/21/17 09:32 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
cxp Offline
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Registered: 01/21/09
Posts: 27
How about something like this:

https://soundcloud.com/cxp-2/style-versatility-demo

This is right out of Band-in-a-Box. Changing the instrumentation on the MIDI based style several times in the track gives the same style a variety of sounds. Basically an EDM style with elements of blues and bluegrass.

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#434491 - 10/21/17 09:35 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Just to expand on my last idea regarding RealSets...

Just a slight improvement to the way you can change RealStyles in the middle of a song would be huge I think. So, currently you have to pop up an obscure window and select the style change and it is not really indicated in the song so doing it once is complicated and doing it multiple times would be way too complicated to even attempt.

So, how about making it much easier to change styles on any bar? And then make RealSets where PG's experts group together cool RealStyles that might work together? And give us the option to change/create RealSets in the same way we can change/create RealStyles?

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#434492 - 10/21/17 09:35 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: cxp]
David Snyder Offline
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Loc: North Carolina

This is fun.

smile
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#434496 - 10/21/17 09:43 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
David Snyder Offline
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Posts: 3736
Loc: North Carolina

Ok, now you have gone so deep into the Hegelian dialectic JohnJohnJohn that I am going to have to dig out my Schopenhauer just to follow the thesis and the antithesis of the original posited position in order to reverse engineer the conversation to the contradiction of the elliptical afterthought of the tension between the two resolutions of the conclusion.

That being said, I will leave it up to PG Music to figure this out.

[fade to David falling out of his chair from exhaustion and passing out never to be revived]

--BLACK OUT--
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

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#434502 - 10/21/17 10:05 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: David Snyder

Ok, now you have gone so deep into the Hegelian dialectic JohnJohnJohn that I am going to have to dig out my Schopenhauer just to follow the thesis and the antithesis of the original posited position in order to reverse engineer the conversation to the contradiction of the elliptical afterthought of the tension between the two resolutions of the conclusion.

That being said, I will leave it up to PG Music to figure this out.

[fade to David falling out of his chair from exhaustion and passing out never to be revived]

--BLACK OUT--

Me: you can't create modern songs with BIAB in the same easy way you can create classic bluegrass or classic country or classic rock songs
Others: Yes you can
Me: Cool, show me how
Others: You can't
Me: um, ok...maybe in a future version?

laugh


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (10/21/17 10:11 AM)

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#434505 - 10/21/17 10:51 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4417
Loc: South Carolina
AMP (Advanced Music Production) offers an online video course with over 30 hours of videos, 30 + pdf files, and samples that will show you how to compose modern music in any modern genre step by step.... *** I have no affiliation with AMP but have taken this course "Music Programming". For me, it was worth every cent it cost ***

It includes how to make your own high quality samples and loops and once you have learned to do that, the author shows you step by step how to produce and compose music. He calls it programming music. Relate making your samples and loops from isolated generated tracks as well as existing BIAB user forum originals and it will be quite clear how BIAB's 2,500+ hours of audio, Midi style, RealTrack styles, sgu files is a enormous untapped library for modern music composition.

David is right on the money with his analysis and acceptance of BIAB as a major player in those genres.

He is also correct it is the individuals creativity and ability to write a great song that will lead to a successful song or not. The tools are there in BIAB.

The processes are simple but it is not easy to do....

Charlie
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#434506 - 10/21/17 10:52 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: David Snyder]
JoanneCooper Offline
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Registered: 05/12/12
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Loc: South Africa
J*3 I am no longer sure why I am trying to convince you but I have posted another track on the other thread. Go give it a listen

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#434511 - 10/21/17 11:11 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Modern Sound_Very Quick Tutorial [Re: JoanneCooper]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: JoanneCooper
J*3 I am no longer sure why I am trying to convince you but I have posted another track on the other thread. Go give it a listen

Just listened and my favorite part is your lovely (as always) vocals! In fact, I'd love this as a classic folk song with your amazing Baez-like vocals!

As I explore this further, one of the things I think I am looking for is some serious dynamics in a song. For example, listen to the build and explosion in I Bet My Life or in Chandelier. They use loops and some of the other techniques that have been discussed here but they also do amazing things with the dynamics.

And you don't have to convince me! smile We can have a conversation and we might not agree and that's ok! I still appreciate the conversation!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (10/21/17 11:12 AM)

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