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#441706 - 11/30/17 09:10 AM [Beginners Forum] ACW and SGU dont line up
WendyM Offline
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Registered: 12/29/16
Posts: 161
Loc: UK
Or maybe Vice-versa?
Ive got an mp3 of a tune I like and want to make a BIAB backing track.Ive found a style thats pretty close HEPN085 so Iasked ACW to give me the chords which it did.I set Bar1 where the first note of the mp3 starts because i assume that is also Bar1 of my SGU.Ive set the speed to 107 which is what ACW says it is and it does seem to be right.
The trouble is when I hit Regen and Play they are out of line with each other-one starts before the other by about halfa bar and it stays that way all through.SO I think its not a speed issue its a setting one. But what have I set wrong please? How do I jog them together?
Wendy
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#441811 - 12/01/17 12:15 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13223
Loc: Australia
Wendy,

It sounds like you need to create a tempo map of the mp3 so that BIAB can apply it to the style and thus have the SGU and mp3 aligning.

Most recorded songs are not strictly accurate when it comes to tempo and there are often variations of speed from bar to bar.

To create a tempo map, go into ACW, play the audio through and press F8 to mark beat 1 of the bars. Early on in the song, I find it a good idea to line up the first few bars. After that, though, I usually only press F8 every two, three or four bars.

Have a look at the video clip below. It explains more fully some of the intricacies of the ACW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Q7-UbYfFI

Even though the clip uses an older version of BIAB, the information is still relevant.

All the best,
Noel


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#441829 - 12/01/17 03:44 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
WendyM Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/29/16
Posts: 161
Loc: UK
Noel,thanks for the reply.The vid is very useful too.
I still have a problem tho.I know I have the chords right cos hubby has played them through and says theyre OK and when I play just the SGU all seems OK too.Its a song in C and keychange at the end to Ab.So I go to ACW and load up the songs mp3, set Bar1 and then Play, using F8 to set the Barlines to keep it all in line.I did this every two bars.When Id done I asked it to "Send to BIAB".I got a box saying that the key was "Eb"-WHAT?-and to set a tempo map for "midi to line up with the mp3"-WHAT Midi?, the SGU is all RTs-and pressed "close" cos there's no other boxto use to send it on - and EVERYTHING DISAPPEARED!All the chords on my chordchart just vanished!Luckily Id given this one a difefrent name so I still have my chords.
What on earth did I do wrong please.
Wendy
_________________________
BiaB/RB2018plus,513,extras packs,Forte Dxi,Sonar7XL,Win 7,two speed egg whisk,6 gear bicycle,mangy old diesel car-oh,and I got a new dishwasher for my Birthday.So Kind.
Hubby said we could do with an electric car.I agreed-so he bought us a Scalextric!Sob!

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#441833 - 12/01/17 04:27 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4418
Loc: South Carolina
I have had this misalignment as an issue off and on for the last couple of years. I say off and on because is normally gets fixed in an update. A later update may cause imports to again misalign but then be fixed again in a later update. 2017 ended with imports being aligned.

I am not completely familiar with the new integrated ACW so I will tell you the work around for the prior version. It probably will work with both versions.

1. Import your song using the default 1,-1,1,0 time base placement.

2. Select Play (Not Generate Play button)

3. You will hear the style playing and your audio as well as observe the tracking bar to see if the alignment synch lags or leads.

4.Disable the style. (click on the style and enable/disable is the
first choice)

5. Open Audio Editor.

6. Click at the beginning of the audio. A Red line will be placed where you click.

7. Right click on the audio and select Mark this point as Bar 1.

8. right click on the audio and select Permanently apply Bar 1 offset (the line will turn orange)

9. A text box will appear advising how many milliseconds of audio will be added or deleted.

10. If the milliseconds (added or deleted amount) appears correct, select yes

11. This should properly align the track to the style. If not, use control Z and repeat the above
by setting your first bar marker either a bit ahead of your first marker or behind as necessary.

Note: This works the same if you import your audio through the ACW by selecting the ACW and then selecting your audio track.



Edited by Charlie Fogle (12/01/17 04:28 AM)
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#441837 - 12/01/17 05:14 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5677
I haven't uses ACW in a very long time but I seem to recall that you have to set the starting measure in it for it to line up.

another option is use a DAW that lets you click and drag the track on the time line so that you can get it to line up properly.

Every time I tried to use ACW.... most of the time it was fairly accurate with the chords in simple songs.... but it can get pretty far off course in it's guesses sometimes when the chords aren't simple triads or the bass note is not in the root. After spending several hours one time to get ACW to give me the right chords AND to get it in sync.... I gave up and started a new song.... inputting the chords manually and I was done in 20 minutes time. The biggest issue I have had in using ACW is the sync issue. Defining that all important starting point.

Like I said, I haven't used it in a very long time mostly because I don't do things that require it's services.
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#441848 - 12/01/17 08:12 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: Guitarhacker]
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4418
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
I haven't uses ACW in a very long time but I seem to recall that you have to set the starting measure in it for it to line up.

another option is use a DAW that lets you click and drag the track on the time line so that you can get it to line up properly.



Yes, you're right Herb. Setting Bar 1 syncs the audio with the tempo map and thus, Biab styles.

That fact causes me to not understand the other option of using a DAW to how it applies to the ACW because I believe you would have to know or calculate the tempo of the song in advance in a DAW to set the proper alignment of the bars. That would have no impact on importing the audio into Biab. The ACW creates a chord chart and a tempo map and imports that along with the audio into Biab.

NOTE: I am referring to the previous existing ACW and not expressly the new integrated version. I've not familiarized or experimented with the new version yet.

Wendy's issue as I understand it is the same as I've encountered, where when the song has been analyzed by the ACW regarding the tempo map and chord chart does not properly sync with Bar 1 of the Biab chord chart. All that needs to be done is to manually align the imported audio to the Biab styles. That is what I've detailed in my previous post. I've over-explained it above for the sake of clarity, it's easier than it looks from my explanation.

In simple terms, open the audio editor, click where you want bar 1 to be and make your choice permanent. Various builds have this where the import is correctly aligned but some builds and updates, it has to be done manually until a future update fixes it.
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#441854 - 12/01/17 09:47 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: Charlie Fogle]
WendyM Offline
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Registered: 12/29/16
Posts: 161
Loc: UK
Im in 2017. No t bought 2018 yet as it looks very buggy and Im not smart enough to go fix what should already have been fixed before I bought it.End of Rant!Sorry!
Yes,setting Bar1 DOES sync the Audio with the SGU but as Noel points out sometimes stuff wanders off as it doesnt keep to a set tempo and by the time I get 20 bars in on this tune Im out about halfa bar or more.So I did the F8 thing and tapped every darned bar right through the 3 minute piece to make sure that the SGU kept up with the mp3 as it wandered about in speed.
Then I said "send to BIAB" and first of all it said that my key looked like being in Eb but its in C going up to Ab at the end and I cant see how to change that(if it matters)and I clicked the tempo map box. From there on-NOTHING happened.There doesnt seem to be a "send" button-unless its then supposed to be automatic. So I clicked the "Close" button. I would have expected,ifI had got it wrong, to be returnd to my chordsheet with a "must try harder" note lol or something BUT instead I got a BLANK chordsheet with every Bar underlined in Red, presumably a Tempo Map. BUT what happened to all the chords? Its driving me potty!
Wendy
_________________________
BiaB/RB2018plus,513,extras packs,Forte Dxi,Sonar7XL,Win 7,two speed egg whisk,6 gear bicycle,mangy old diesel car-oh,and I got a new dishwasher for my Birthday.So Kind.
Hubby said we could do with an electric car.I agreed-so he bought us a Scalextric!Sob!

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#441856 - 12/01/17 09:51 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4418
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: WendyM
Noel,thanks for the reply.The vid is very useful too.
I still have a problem tho.I know I have the chords right cos hubby has played them through and says theyre OK and when I play just the SGU all seems OK too.Its a song in C and keychange at the end to Ab.So I go to ACW and load up the songs mp3, set Bar1 and then Play, using F8 to set the Barlines to keep it all in line.I did this every two bars.When Id done I asked it to "Send to BIAB".I got a box saying that the key was "Eb"-WHAT?-and to set a tempo map for "midi to line up with the mp3"-WHAT Midi?, the SGU is all RTs-and pressed "close" cos there's no other boxto use to send it on - and EVERYTHING DISAPPEARED!All the chords on my chordchart just vanished!Luckily Id given this one a difefrent name so I still have my chords.
What on earth did I do wrong please.
Wendy


Wendy, I just read through this post thoroughly and have two comments. I have found it not to be unusual for a download, and especially a compressed download, to be out of tune on occasion. Regardless where an MP3 comes from, it may be poor quality. For instance, I d/l songs from YouTube, which may result in a file that was uploaded compressed, compressed again by YouTube, and I may save my D/L as an MP3. Obviously, my save D/L of a compressed/compressed/compressed audio file will be of poor quality.

I've also found that the ACW is usually correct with the actual key and therefore I use the Key determined by the ACW so that the style selected in Biab will correctly match the 'transposed by compression' key signature. If I'm not using the downloaded MP3 for anything other than creating a chord chart and tempo map, after importing the song into Biab, I kill the audio. Then I open up Audio/Audio Chord Wizard Utilities and erase the tempo map and set the Biab song tempo to a standard tempo - ie: ACW has average tempo 73 - I will set tempo at 70 or 75, whichever sounds the best. Sometimes, 73 will sound the best so I will set at the actual determined tempo.

Second. By not saving the tempo map, no tempo map was imported and the Biab song tempo was set at the average tempo rather than the actual MP3 song tempo and as you learned, not choosing a key change or tempo, everything was discarded. When the tempo map is imported into the Biab chord sheet and works with MIDI or RealTracks, imported audio, Performance Tracks and Super MIDI.

Hopes this helps.

Charlie
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#441860 - 12/01/17 10:05 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4418
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: WendyM
Im in 2017. No t bought 2018 yet as it looks very buggy and Im not smart enough to go fix what should already have been fixed before I bought it.End of Rant!Sorry!
Yes,setting Bar1 DOES sync the Audio with the SGU but as Noel points out sometimes stuff wanders off as it doesnt keep to a set tempo and by the time I get 20 bars in on this tune Im out about halfa bar or more.So I did the F8 thing and tapped every darned bar right through the 3 minute piece to make sure that the SGU kept up with the mp3 as it wandered about in speed.
Then I said "send to BIAB" and first of all it said that my key looked like being in Eb but its in C going up to Ab at the end and I cant see how to change that(if it matters)and I clicked the tempo map box. From there on-NOTHING happened.There doesnt seem to be a "send" button-unless its then supposed to be automatic. So I clicked the "Close" button. I would have expected,ifI had got it wrong, to be returnd to my chordsheet with a "must try harder" note lol or something BUT instead I got a BLANK chordsheet with every Bar underlined in Red, presumably a Tempo Map. BUT what happened to all the chords? Its driving me potty!
Wendy


I see you posted while I was composing my last comment in a start/stop fashion rather than completing my comments at once.

So, in 2017 version, the auto sync does work and Bar 1 should set correctly. That also makes Noel's advice correct. The manner you exited the ACW discarded the calculated Tempo Map and allowed the drifting. The set tempo is an average calculation over the whole song and may not be the correct tempo the song begins at.... Also, as Noel pointed out, songs drift faster and slower by a few bpm's throughout the song.

I found for me, it's easier to accept the ACW results and change them in Biab after import if necessary. I do this regardless if I'm working with quality WAV audio that will be used in a project or poor quality MP3 D/L's that will be discarded.

Charlie
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#441897 - 12/01/17 12:32 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: ACW and SGU dont line up [Re: WendyM]
Noel96 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13223
Loc: Australia
Charlie,

Thanks for jumping in. You're the expert on ACW and I always pick up things when I read your posts.

Wendy,

it didn't occur to me to mention this but like Charlie, once I have the chords, I also kill the audio because I no longer need it. In addition, again like Charlie, I remove the tempo map and just set BIAB to a tempo that I like.

The reason that using F8 is important is twofold. One: aligning beat 1 creates a tempo map that BIAB can use if it is to play along with the audio. Two: ACW's interpretation of chords is often dependent on what it interprets as beat 1 in a bar. By making sure that the beats 1 align, the best chord interpretation is obtained.

My experience is that chord interpretation depends on many things and some genres interpret better than others. Country songs with simple chords are highly accurate. Jazz songs with complex chords, though, often need user input to adjust chords when the chart is returned to BIAB. This is understandable given that a melody note can belong to numerous chordal possibilities.

In a nutshell, this is my process...

1. Open the audio file w/chords (under "Open | Open Special").

2. Set bar 1.

3. Press F8 to align beat 1 for most/many/some bars (this depends on the rhythmic accuracy of the audio).

Once the beats 1 are entered, it's possible to adjust them by simply dragging the bar line to a position of more accurate placement.

4. When the song is finished determine the key and set it.

The root key chord most often occurs: (a) as the last chord in the chorus; (b) the first chord of the verses; (c) at the end of the song. Since the initial key may not always be the ending key (as in the song you are describing), I always try to home in on the first time in the audio that I hear the complete feeling of resolution that comes when the chord progression reaches 'home base'. This is the key that I set in ACW because BIAB requires the starting key. Key changes in BIAB are set using F5.

5. When I've finished the song, I send everything back to BIAB.

6. If I need to adjust BIAB's key, I use the right column of the key settings so that the chord names are not transposed.

7. I kill the audio and delete the tempo map. (To delete the tempo map, go into Bar Settings (F5) and press "Reset all bars" at the bottom of the bar settings window.)

8. Now I enable the style because it is automatically disabled by ACW when the chords are sent to BIAB. When it's disabled, there's an X in front of the style's name.

Hope this helps a bit more.

Regards,
Noel


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