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Quote:
<...>The sound is subjective. You have no idea what synth I'm using when you make that statement.
My apologies
Quote:
The problem I have with Midi is that it sounds too perfect, too mechanical. I have no inclination to take a Midi bass line and spend forever trying to make it sound human. By the way, one can also hear the wood vibrating using RTs. <...>
If a human entered the bass line in real time, it should sound human up to the limitations of BiaB.
The problem is, too many styles were step-entered which makes them sound non-human.
And I know that not everyone wants to put the work in to make the MIDI tracks sound better. But I strongly feel that by putting in the work by editing the MIDI files in a sequencer, you can end up with a much better sounding backing track than you can with the RTs (for the reasons I stated earlier).
IMHO getting song specific licks, shots, holds, gradual tempo variations, kicks, gradual and/or instant volume variations, and all the other things you can do in MIDI that you cannot do with the RTs have more effect on the audience than a pure bass (or any other) tone. For me the RTs sound too generic and don't fit the personality of each individual song. The MIDI tracks are the same way (it's the nature of auto-accompaniment), but I can fix the MIDI files in a sequencer so they fit the song's personality, where I cannot with RTs.
Of course, many people don't want to put in the time and work. There is something to be said for instant gratification.
On the other hand, I do this for a living. Even if I spend an entire day making the backing track as good as I can make it, it's worth it. I will play that track thousands of times and the better I can make it feel, the more I will please the audience. The more I please the audience, the more fun they will have. The more fun they have means I get more opportunities to perform. The more opportunities I get to perform, the more fun I have and the more my mortgage company likes me.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Once you are lucky enough to have no mortgage company, it changes your perspective. I don't have to do anything really, except hire guys to clean the leaves out of my gutters, and make sure the wife had gas for the lawnmower and a nice shovel for the snow.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Many thanks for this discussion. It's very interesting and educational for me. As noted by Mac, it seems the tendency is to make it an "either or" situation re: midi v. real tracks. I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but they both have their very useful applications, IMHO. I guess we could go on and on, but for me, the bottom line is just use what you have to to get the sound you want. FWIW.
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Quote:
The problem I have with Midi is that it sounds too perfect, too mechanical. I have no inclination to take a Midi bass line and spend forever trying to make it sound human. By the way, one can also hear the wood vibrating using RTs.
Rachael
Hi Rachael,
Well, that depends.
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
Of course, one should pick the MIDI instrumentation carefully, not all Patches sound good. If it doesn't sound that good when done this way, then I don't do that, I do something else.
However, when recording ALL the instruments on all the tracks in RealTime with MIDI instruments and qualified musicians, one can indeed make a lot happen.
MIDI Piano, MIDI Bass, MIDI drums, all played in realtime by MIDI musicians, Bass is also on the keyboard, recorded live too, drums recorded by a live drummer using a MIDI kit:
SleighRide.mp3
That was done maybe ten years ago or so, using whatever version of Powertracks that was out at the time.
Here's another, this one combines MIDI plus a few real instruments, an old standard arrangement re-multitracked by yours truly:
Goin_ta_Town.wma
Drums for this one were played on a KEYBOARD, one part at a time, but again, no step-entry, realtime recording.
There is a clue that the sax is MIDI towards the end of that last one, it goes up and out of a real range. Never corrected it. Should have.
You can also hear me Spankin' the Plank a bit on the old Stratocaster with a pair of EMG active humbuckers in it in this one, too...
--Mac
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Quote:
Quote:
The problem I have with Midi is that it sounds too perfect, too mechanical. I have no inclination to take a Midi bass line and spend forever trying to make it sound human. By the way, one can also hear the wood vibrating using RTs.
Rachael
Hi Rachael,
Well, that depends.
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
Of course, one should pick the MIDI instrumentation carefully, not all Patches sound good. If it doesn't sound that good when done this way, then I don't do that, I do something else.
Mac,
I appreciate the feedback but you're over my head now. Is this something I can easily do in BIAB using the existing BIAB styles?
Rachael
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"Easy" is a relative term and it always depends on how much you know and how much you've practiced what you know, Rachael.
Just like with that Piano.
Treat BIAB like a separate musical instrument of its own right, that's my approach. Of course, don't expect to be able to do pro level stuff with BB, RB or PT using single button push methods. Ain't gonna happen.
I'll bet you play some tunes that are "easy" for you. But at one time, they were not so easy, maybe even difficult, right?
--Mac
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besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
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Quote:
besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
Almost everything I know and do about MIDI came from doing things like downloading (and sometimes *buying* from reputable sources) great sounding MIDI files and then opening them up in a sequencing software like Powertracks/Realband that is able to reveal all the little things, the CC's etc. that a Consummate MIDIOT puts in those files. The Event List as well as the MIDI Monitor is my best friend at that point.
As for learning the nomenclature, well, the world wide web is your best friend for that, websearching can bring up plenty of basic info, the MIDI Manufacturer's Association list of all commands for the MIDI standard, plus there is a website out there covering just about every single aspect of the MIDI definition, right down to the nitty-gritty.
It also depends upon what you want to do and what you have already done, too. For example, I was already fairly adept at writing arrangements for orchestra, bigband, ensemble and the like with a pencil before I even knew that MIDI existed. The ability to hear the arrangement in your head as you write it is an important part of the way I work. For doing transcriptions of existing recordings to MIDI, I put the audio file of the target recording on the first track of the sequencer and LISTEN. I find the Bass track by using the marvelous filters that live between our ears. Concentrate on hearing it. Then I concentrate on learning it. Then I concentrate on playing that on my keyboard and do practice runs playing along with the real bass player on the target recording. Finally, I TAP the tempo into the MIDI sequencer, arm a track and start trying to record the Bass line while playing along with that real recording. Fix mistakes, retake, whatever, then check your Bass track as it plays along with the real thing, if good, on to doing the exact same thing with the "next instrument up". Yes, I have found that it pays to work from the bottom up when transcribing anything at all. If you can't identify the Bass first, then you can't identify the chord properly, or any other note above the bass. "Bottom Up".
It should go without saying that before I ever did my first MIDI sequence, I had spent years developing my ears and my playing abilities. I can generally "catch" most songs as they play the first time through and start playing along with them at this point. Play the "radio game" as part of your practice regimen. Start at the left end of the dial and the first music you hear, try to play along with it. LISTEN TO THE BASS FIRST, that's the key. If you can grab the root, you are 90% there. Beginners may have to start by simply working on grabbing the Tonic. Twenty minutes a day is all it takes, but you gotta do it every day or at least every other day for about a year with serious intent to get result. Grab that first tune, then turn the dial to the right. Next station, no matter the genre, wait for the next music you hear -- and try to grab it. Repeat all the way up the dial. This includes Ads and Jingles so don't avoid the Talk Show stations at all. Use the BIAb Interval Trainer daily. Ten Minutes a Day and you will soon develop the kind of Relative Pitch needed. And Relative Pitch is indeed all that is needed. Never mind the key, what's the numbers? Country Music and Religious Music stations are great for practicing simply listening and trying to recite the numbers as the chords change, because they typically use "standard" and easy changes. Again, listen for the BASS to get the root of each chord. Great drill when highway driving alone. As the song plays, say the numbers. "One, Six-minor, Four, Five..."
PRACTICE making MIDI files and don't let anybody but yourself hear them. Keep practicing. Rinse, Repeat. YOU should know when your files are ready to be presented to others. Instant Gratification should not be the goal here at all. If it is worth doing, then the job is worth doing WELL.
Bear in mind that one can put quite a few man-hours into what eventually is only a few minutes of music as it plays back. That is just the way it is. As with anything else, you get faster at it with practice, you learn some shortcut tricks, but you should still find that it takes time to develop a stellar MIDI sequence.
Here is the biggest SECRET about building MIDI sequences I can give you:
In the MIDI domain, there are certain things that MIDI can do well. Use them and even emphasize them. For there are also certain things that MIDI can NOT do well. When you come to that situation, you have to know when to not do that. At all. Only a fool keeps complaining that the sun is too bright every summer day. The wise man gets a pair of sunglasses. So it is.
--Mac
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Quote:
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
I guess you are saying the above is not possible in BIAB?
R
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Thanks, Mac. You're comments are very welcome to me. They really put things in a perspective that I can relate to even if I don't understand all of the little nuances. You also point out some things that we all already know, but somehow manage to put on the back shelf---practice and patience. As you point out, there are very few shortcuts. I've asked a lot of questions on here, but there are many more questions that I didn't ask. I just have to learn this stuff by doing it. As an old geezer, I find that I have to do it fairly often or I won't remember too many specifics. It's obvious listening to what you've done, that you took the time and did the "fine tuning" to make those quality recordings. I totally agree that listening is crucial to learning music, too. This is something that I should do more of. Thanks for all those reminders.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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thanks mac as usual you're right on
even though i suffer from IGS, instant gratification syndrome, i read you and having spent 25+ years in the network admin and programming business i recognize the parallels
in programming for example if you want to write code that gets the job done you must learn the language and what it has to offer in the way of functions & features in addition to the ability to express the task using a tool like a flow chart, somebody else's well written code has always been a helpful learning tool for me
suggestions of well crafted midi files, and the techniques they demonstrate, are welcome
programming skills didn't come overnight this won't either
in retirement as i am trying to transfer what's in my head to the the daw i am finding out how limited my musical & midi compositional knowledge is
a bit frustrating but i've been here before
thanks again
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Quote:
Quote:
If you set your recording software to a high MIDI resolution, like 9600 ppq instead of the typical default of 120 ppq (tha'ts "Parts Per Quarter" as in quarter note) and then Record MIDI Instruments in Realtime, the kind of timing resolution you can get easily rivals what you can get when recording Audio. With much smaller filesizes and the ability to get deep in there and edit out a bad note or two without having to resort to Punchins, Multi-takes and Crossfading or other methods that must be done in the Audio domain.
I guess you are saying the above is not possible in BIAB?
R
Exactly. Band in a Box is locked at 120ppq. In most cases, that is likely enough, though, as witnessed by some of the stuff that was obviously MIDI recorded by the likes of Oliver Gannon or Miles Black, et al. But I do wonder if they recorded the MIDI track inside BIAB or if they used Powertracks set to higher resolution and then converted and imported to BIAB sometimes. I don't know either way, just something I've occasionally wondered. As it stands, I don't have problems all that much recording MIDI myself inside BIAB with the 120ppq resolution. My meager attempts to play come out okay enough for me. So I wouldn't let that become some sort of impediment to not trying if you catch my drift. What I'm talking about here is an improvement, but be aware that it may be subtle and slight, heard only be those with the trained and golden ears. It will not stop a realistic sounding performance at all. Think about it for a minute -- can you actually subdivide a quarter note beat into 120 parts in your head?
--Mac
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Quote:
besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
You can start here: http://leftandwrite.com/brian/music/beginners_guide_to_midi.php
Also there are some good beginner midi books available, just google “midi for dummies” to see a few.
Mac’s advice is spot on. To add one more thing I suggest looking at the midi specification sheet, sometimes called a Midi implementation Chart, that comes with every hard or soft synth. It will tell you what Midi CC numbers are activated and what they control for that unit. Then just play around with them and see what happens. Note that some CC numbers are universal like CC7 (volume) and CC10 (pan) for example. There is a ton of information on the internet so goggle a lot!
Have fun
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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There is another consideration in using Midi and inputting your performance live. In the beginning I began to use a Roland guitar controller and inserted my fingerpicking while playing my acoustic, then assigned a midi guitar voice - XG sounds offered more flexibility and have four CCs that will change the nature of the sound in brightness, harmonics, attack and I don't recall the fourth. But if you are going to input live I think you should at least set ppq at 480 and make sure that in the notation options you DO NOT HAVE "snap to grid" checked unless your ppq is 480 minimum, 960 maybe better, otherwise when you open the Notation window, all your grace notes, slides etc will have shifted in time either forward or backward depending on which grid line they are closer to. And do not quantize your performance or you will lose the human feel. This at least applies to PT - never tried in BIAB - PT was easier.  Just a thought or two. Ian
Last edited by Ian Fraser; 12/01/09 12:23 PM.
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Quote:
besides a real teacher, where does someone learn how to use the expressive controls in midi to achieve what mac and notes are talking about
books or video website recommendations, examples?
I just created and uploaded a list of all the MIDI continuous controllers. This page doesn't tell you how to use them, and each sequencer has different names and different menu locations for changing them (most have more than one way to do it), but once you learn how to do one, the list will come in handy.
To view the list go to: http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.html
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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My favorite controller number is because of the MIDI Manufacturer's Association's common sense in selecting which one to use for All Notes Off. This is the same command that the Panic Button (!) sends from most software sequencers.
But when live onstage, you may find a day when a stuck note or worse yet, a confused and wandering synth needs to be topped quickly.
Panic Button is CC123
Just remember that it is as easy as 1,2,3 and you'll stop the darn thing before the bandmembers can get together and discuss firing that darn MIDIOT guy.
--Mac
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What a great idea, Notes!
Bookmarked!
Ian
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What a great idea, Notes! Thanks.
Bookmarked!
Ian
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It is the nature of creativity to embrace variability. Once you settle on a single solution, you are limited to whatever set of options it offers. For that reason, I don't really want PGmusic to be my "one-size-fits-all" musical solution.
I like having options.
I like having the option to play many of the parts myself.
I like the tweakability options that are offered by the MIDI styles in BIAB.
I like the different set of options made available in RealBand.
I like the fact that they can work together or separately or even be exported for use in other music software. As far as I'm concerned, PGMusic has created a system that is already useful in so many ways, I don't have time to explore and understand them all before the next version arrives.
I see no need to think in terms of "THIS, not THAT" ... rather I think "this AND that!"
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You should not only Bookmark that page,
You should highlight, copy and paste to a Wordpad or Notepad file
And place it on your desktop of the DAW for fast and ready reference.
--Mac
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
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Jan 19th, 2020
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