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#445152 - 12/14/17 02:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
VinhSon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 55
CoolBreeze,
FYI Borland Delphi is still around with diff name:https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi

I don't know the PG music updated their tool yet ? smile

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#445197 - 12/14/17 09:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 7550
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: CoolBreeze
Well, you know it's like a cult thing. You will have people defend Delphi to the death, but I didn't know they were still around.

It is a very impressive program by any means, but you think they would have moved on to something with more meat on the bone.

CoolBreese, interesting points. Are you a computer programmer?

Joel Spolsky is a New York software developer with some excellent ideas.

He wrote this article - a long time ago now. It's great advice and this advice is still current. The article discusses rewriting code from scratch.

If it was decided to port to a different development platform, don't expect the next release for a long time. A very long time. And what would be delivered after that extraordinary wait? Exactly what we have now, except with a whole new set of bugs thrown in that need to be painfully sorted out.

Joel also makes other excellent points:

"When you throw away code and start from scratch, you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.

You are throwing away your market leadership. You are giving a gift of two or three years to your competitors."

PG Music have provided no fewer than 4 public release updates for 2018 in less than 2 weeks. To me that says they are proactive in resolving issues.

I wonder could you share your ideas about exactly what functionality BiaB could deliver if written in another language that the current one can't?

Thanks,

Trevor
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#445255 - 12/15/17 06:06 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: VideoTrack]
VinhSon Offline
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Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 55
Quote:
PG Music have provided no fewer than 4 public release updates for 2018 in less than 2 weeks. To me that says they are proactive in resolving issues.


It shouldn't have many bugs like that before released to the public smile

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#445294 - 12/15/17 08:35 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: VideoTrack]
CoolBreeze Offline
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Registered: 12/07/17
Posts: 64
Depending on who you ask, I'd like to think I can program, and I have worked in the past as a developer/tester.

Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
He wrote this article - a long time ago now. It's great advice and this advice is still current.


Are you trying to say that there has never been a successfully rewritten piece of software, because you referred to a very old article citing the version #6 release of a web browser?

That's the beauty of software design, is that it has moved forward with better tools and methodologies that have advanced the whole playing field. What version would BIAB be at, V30? You don't honestly believe that MS Windows is still being built on its old technology from over 30 years ago?

I'm not expecting to pour my heart and soul into a web browser, and then turn around and expect the "Web Browser" that I paid for to play nice and produce something beautiful for me. BTW it also has to play nice with the other thousands of browsers and addons out there.

Not the same story at all, but I do understand where you're coming from. I do like Embarcadero Technologies and what they have done with their products.

The thing I discovered a long time ago, and is still true today, is that although those Pascal Objects look pretty, they don't behave the same as the other components in the system. Like for instance in RB where the scroll wheel on my mouse decides to have a mind of its own. Yeah I could probably find some adjustments to make, but that is just the first clue that some other things might be different or quirky. You can call it "Modern" all you want, sort of like calling BB lite pro, is still not going to make it so.
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack

If it was decided to port to a different development platform, don't expect the next release for a long time. A very long time. And what would be delivered after that extraordinary wait? Exactly what we have now, except with a whole new set of bugs thrown in that need to be painfully sorted out.


Pardon me if I quote Prince here, "forever's a mighty long time, but I'm here to tell you there's something else!" Seeing that's about how long it's been running on the same codebase, I think we could even spare a decade or two for them to come up with one product that covers the need of two.

Again don't get me wrong, I love what they've done with BIAB & RB. They have really outdone themselves, but the market is full of really good products that do what they suppose to do.

Bugs will always be a part of the process, but how about taking care of existing ones before adding new features that just introduce more bugs? It's called feature creep, and they have a bad case of it, there's no denying that.

Originally Posted By: VideoTrack

Joel also makes other excellent points:

"When you throw away code and start from scratch, you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.

You are throwing away your market leadership. You are giving a gift of two or three years to your competitors."


No he doesn't, when you lose an employee, then you are throwing away knowledge and may have to start from scratch. That code isn't going anywhere, it's still right here on our machines, and I pity the fool who doesn't have a backup of their codebase.

You have the gifting wrong, PG Music is resting on their laurels(market leadership) thus giving their competitors the gift of two or three years to go for that leadership.

Seriously now to put it simply, if I understand logic correctly, then throwing away a loop that I wrote in Cobol 30 yrs ago is not throwing away knowledge. I should be able to code a loop, list, or any other function once I learn the semantics of the new language.

When you learn it's more like gaining something and not losing something.


Originally Posted By: VideoTrack

PG Music have provided no fewer than 4 public release updates for 2018 in less than 2 weeks. To me that says they are proactive in resolving issues.

PG Music seems to be very on point no doubt. That's why I didn't even wait the full 30 days to activate the software, because I very much have faith in their ability to code.

So to sum it all up, a smoother experience, and better integration all around. I could go on, but I've rambled on long enough.

I'm sure I'm probably wrong, but I just don't see it the same way. I love the programs, but they're not going to lose anything moving to a new codebase. There is no way they are on the latest release, if anything it looks like the latest would be 2014.
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#445317 - 12/15/17 11:14 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: VinhSon]
Andrew - PG Music Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 3672
Loc: Victoria, BC
We've been doing some testing, and the change seems to be with the UVIWorkStation plugin and not with Band-in-a-Box.

- I located an earlier DLL (version 2.1.8.0, dated 11/06/2013) and it works fine with Band-in-a-Box.

- The newer DLL (version 2.6.15.0, dated 10/27/2017) does not work, it does not load and gives the error message as noted earlier in this thread. This error message comes from the DLL. We do not know at this point what is causing this error.

- This also occurs with all versions of Band-in-a-Box back to 2014, including 2015. (earlier versions not tested).
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PG Music Inc.

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#445336 - 12/15/17 12:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: Andrew - PG Music]
VinhSon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 55
Andrew - PG Music
Thanks for your info.
Just for your info. from mine: Before upgraded to 2018, I had Biab2015pro and UVIworkStation plug-in 2.6.15. The BIaB2015 loaded fine with My PC, OS WIN10.

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#445392 - 12/15/17 04:59 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
A_R Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/25/15
Posts: 54
Originally Posted By: CoolBreeze
Depending on who you ask, I'd like to think I can program, and I have worked in the past as a developer/tester.

[quote=VideoTrack] He wrote this article - a long time ago now. It's great advice and this advice is still current.


The thing I discovered a long time ago, and is still true today, is that although those Pascal Objects look pretty, they don't behave the same as the other components in the system. Like for instance in RB where the scroll wheel on my mouse decides to have a mind of its own. Yeah I could probably find some adjustments to make, but that is just the first clue that some other things might be different or quirky. You can call it "Modern" all you want, sort of like calling BB lite pro, is still not going to make it so.
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack

I've been using Delphi since 1995 and I'm wondering if you can fill me in on what exactly these "Pascal Objects" are that you are referring to?

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#445419 - 12/15/17 09:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: A_R]
CoolBreeze Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/07/17
Posts: 64
" Delphi is the choice for developers wanting the power, readability and flexibility of the Modern Object Pascal language, coupled with native compilers and component libraries for fast single source code development on Windows, macOS, iOS, Android and Linux."

You must be kidding, it's plastered on the front page of their site. I had checked out Delphi back in the day when I was using Lazarus and CodeTyphon, but I never stayed with Pascal.

Why even JavaScript has passed up Pascal, so please spare me the sales pitch about how wonderful and efficient it is, because we already know that it's no joke.

With that being said, I can't seem to do anything serious with this product written in it. I've sent in a support request, and I've posted it here with no response from PG yet. I also see that other people are having problems with the audio and rendering, so I'm not worried that it won't be fixed.

So to sum it up, what I am worried about is the fact that I can't get Realband to focus on one track without jumping and scrolling like crazy. The late 90's was about the time I stopped using them because of the same quirky behavior seen in their prebuilt components.

I'm not trying to make it seem like doom and gloom, but there are going to be a lot more edge cases where there are going to be issues using it.

Let's not try to kid ourselves here, just like every other piece software ever written, it does have its own set of issues.
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#445457 - 12/16/17 04:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
A_R Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/25/15
Posts: 54
FL Studio is written using Delphi and are many other properly functioning programs, the behavior you mention is all based out how event handlers are coded to respond to Windows' messages, it has nothing to do with the language the program is written in. The problem with BIAB is it's a DOS program that is merely using Windows as it's GUI. It has never been properly updated to function as a multithreaded event driven program. That has nothing to do with what language is being used. There are many programs written in C++ which have similar issues because their legacy code has never been properly updated.

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#445461 - 12/16/17 04:58 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 7550
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: CoolBreeze
So to sum it up, what I am worried about is the fact that I can't get Realband to focus on one track without jumping and scrolling like crazy. The late 90's was about the time I stopped using them because of the same quirky behavior seen in their prebuilt components.

Please clarify:

You stopped using RealBand in the late 90's ?

Or as a programmer, you don't actually know how to tailor/override native event handlers to handle mouse scroll events?

Or, you couldn't get something to work in the late 90's, (like 18+ years ago), and you believe that there's been no changes or new releases in the product since, so it's still unusable? I.e. the features available then are the same features now?

I guess one of the above must be correct.

I'm just a little interested to know.

Could it be that maybe you didn't know how to use it back then, so got frustrated and just gave up? Just a thought.
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#445476 - 12/16/17 07:06 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: VideoTrack]
CoolBreeze Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/07/17
Posts: 64
Yeah, it was a little confusing, but obviously I was referring to the toolkits(Borland back then). Seems like I did check out BB in the early days, but don't remember really using it. You were able to deduce that much from it, and VT was right about the frustration part.

I don't care how "popular" FL Studio is, it's not in my studio. I'm afraid we are back to square one, so spare me the excuses about it not being multi-threaded.

Why isn't it not updated then? How many more excuses are you going to dream up? Java is still slow, and yet you still see people praising it.

You can forget about trying to play me stupid, because while the rest of the world has moved on to 64 bits and hyper-threading, you just trying to drag me back to the stone ages with you.

It's a no-brainer, if you running old technology, then chances are very high that you'll have problems with newer technology. You want me to believe in magic, and I do believe in the work that has been done with BB & RB, but as time marches on so do the Windows updates.

This has already been discussed numerous times on this message board. You already know the deal. Enough with the excuses already, why some of you keep claiming they don't need to update the code is beyond me.

The program has been feature complete years ago, but go on and keep dreaming up more features to cram into 32 bits, all while telling me everything is going to be fine. Yes they worked the heck out of them 32 bits, but my goodness where does it end?

Again, absolutely awesome work, so I'm not complaining. PG Music has been doing and is doing a wonderful job. Just don't act like there aren't skeletons lurking in it.

What am I suppose be all giddy because they keep adding new features, yet I can only apply four beats per measure, unless I work around "cells." I'm a musician, not an accountant using a spreadsheet.

I could go on, but I'd rather not do it here, because I don't want people to get the wrong idea.

I got this quote from a Java source, but it still applies here.
"If your language allows to draw piexel on screen then it is 100% possible to create a gui framework based on it which will mimic Windows form controls looks & feel precisely"

Keyword highlighted. We shouldn't have this conversation here, and I'll leave it at that. Have a good day!


Edited by CoolBreeze (12/16/17 07:09 AM)
Edit Reason: oops I did it again!
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#445483 - 12/16/17 07:26 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
A_R Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/25/15
Posts: 54
Originally Posted By: CoolBreeze
Yeah, it was a little confusing, but obviously I was referring to the toolkits(Borland back then). Seems like I did check out BB in the early days, but don't remember really using it. You were able to deduce that much from it, and VT was right about the frustration part.

I don't care how "popular" FL Studio is, it's not in my studio. I'm afraid we are back to square one, so spare me the excuses about it not being multi-threaded.

Why isn't it not updated then? How many more excuses are you going to dream up? Java is still slow, and yet you still see people praising it.

You can forget about trying to play me stupid, because while the rest of the world has moved on to 64 bits and hyper-threading, you just trying to drag me back to the stone ages with you.

It's a no-brainer, if you running old technology, then chances are very high that you'll have problems with newer technology. You want me to believe in magic, and I do believe in the work that has been done with BB & RB, but as time marches on so do the Windows updates.

This has already been discussed numerous times on this message board. You already know the deal. Enough with the excuses already, why some of you keep claiming they don't need to update the code is beyond me.

The program has been feature complete years ago, but go on and keep dreaming up more features to cram into 32 bits, all while telling me everything is going to be fine. Yes they worked the heck out of them 32 bits, but my goodness where does it end?

Again, absolutely awesome work, so I'm not complaining. PG Music has been doing and is doing a wonderful job. Just don't act like there aren't skeletons lurking in it.

What am I suppose be all giddy because they keep adding new features, yet I can only apply four beats per measure, unless I work around "cells." I'm a musician, not an accountant using a spreadsheet.

I could go on, but I'd rather not do it here, because I don't want people to get the wrong idea.

I got this quote from a Java source, but it still applies here.
"If your language allows to draw piexel on screen then it is 100% possible to create a gui framework based on it which will mimic Windows form controls looks & feel precisely"

Keyword highlighted. We shouldn't have this conversation here, and I'll leave it at that. Have a good day!
You're all over the place and it's safe to say you're not a programmer because very little of what you're saying makes any sense. You're just throwing around a lot of terms and trying to blame a programming language, when in fact the language has absolutely nothing to do with it. BIAB has plenty of issues but switching to a different programming language will solve none of them, it will just create more bugs trying to port it.

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#445501 - 12/16/17 07:46 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: A_R]
CoolBreeze Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/07/17
Posts: 64
After I verify my credentials, then you'll come up with some other excuse. I'm starting to see what this environment is really about ... not so "open" after all. I may have to still try and get a refund.
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#445503 - 12/16/17 07:57 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: CoolBreeze]
A_R Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/25/15
Posts: 54
What excuse have I come up with? I'm just stating a single fact, the programming language used has absolutely nothing to do with what you've been talking about since your very first post and no amount of flimflam will change that.

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#445515 - 12/16/17 09:10 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB 2018 won't load UVIworkStation Plug-in [Re: VinhSon]
Cerio Online   content
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 771
Loc: Spain
Well, I'm not a programmer, but I think that Coolbreeze made some valid and legitimate observations:

Originally Posted By: CoolBreeze
Bugs will always be a part of the process, but how about taking care of existing ones before adding new features that just introduce more bugs? It's called feature creep, and they have a bad case of it, there's no denying that.

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PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2018 For Windows Build 509 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download this free patch update at http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#509

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Added: The drop station has MP3 and WMAL (lossless WMA) quadrants added.
Fixed: "Drag Audio as MP3" setting in the Plugin settings did not work when dragging a file to Windows Explorer.
Fixed: "Pause Play until MIDI or key received" setting did not work if using WAS audio drivers.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box Server was unable to communicate with BB2018.
Fixed: Choosing a drum kit file in the MIDI/Audio Driver Setup dialog would fail with error "Unable to install patch/drum map for...".
Fixed: Disabling "Include 2 bar lead-in" setting in the Render Song to Audio File dialog would cause videos to be out of sync.
Fixed: It was not possible to type the # sharp character into the chord sheet if using a French keyboard.
Fixed: Some Amplitube TGS files and styles were missing in certain installations.
Fixed: Song would stop playing at bar 8 after rendering to an audio file.
Fixed: The Practice Window songs would not load with error "This directory does not exist...".
Fixed: The Tip of the Day dialog was not displaying any tips.
Fixed: The Tuner, MIDI Monitor, and Drum Kit window were always displaying in English instead of the user's language.

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