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#454323 - 01/28/18 10:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Belladonna Offline
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Registered: 09/09/17
Posts: 250
Loc: Virginia
I'm probably in the C category, although I've been dabbling in music for a long time. Never could give it my full attention as family and other commitments took their time. I play piano and guitar, although probably not well, and I can read music and know a fair amount about theory. Not real great with technology, so that is also a challenge.

As far as cheating, someone wrote a book called good artists borrow and great artists steal. Really meaning that you get ideas from others and you make it your own.

As a visual artist, you can get a photo and have a projector project it onto your paper from which you can trace and then complete a painting or a graphite or charcoal shading. Have you cheated? You didn't really do it from scratch. You used a camera for the photo or you borrowed a photo from someone else. Maybe you changed the composition a little or maybe not. Yet, you had to know what colors to use, how to mix and apply the paint, have some expertise and fine motor skills to get something that looks professional.

There's also a professional artist who makes big money and he just comes up with the ideas. He has a staff of artists that actually do the paintings or drawings, but he signs them and copyrights them under his name. He considers his staff just tradesmen as he is the creative idea person.

So, those of us who use BIAB are we just tradesmen or are we the creative idea artists and musicians? What sets us apart from any other technician?


Edited by Belladonna (01/28/18 10:59 PM)

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#454342 - 01/29/18 05:21 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4348
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
F on sax and wind synth (although I'm reluctant to use the term "monster" because I'm always striving improve and I know where I need to go).

E on vocals, guitar, bass, and flute, I could gig with these for pop/rock/country music, but not for a jazz gig.

D on keys and drums. I can double on these but not an entire gig. Keys? Mostly a weak left piano hand but I can hold chords or work synth joystick/wheels. Drums? I'm good but lack of stamina due to not playing them every day.

I currently make my own backing tracks and regularly play sax, wind synth, guitar, flute and vocals on the gig.

But I also find that the more I learn about music, even after decades of doing it for a living, I find that there is more to learn. When I learn something, I find two more things that are calling me.

Insights and incites by Notes.
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#454377 - 01/29/18 07:57 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
jford Online   content
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10361
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:

A. I have had zero music education in my life.
B. I do not play an instrument. All my songs are 100% software created.
C. I play an instrument but not all that well.
D. I play at a fairly proficient level.
E. I am a monster player.


I am a C+ on piano (although some would call me a D); I'm a C on guitar; I used to be a D on trumpet, but lack of playing over the years does not make for a very good embouchure.

I am not good a writing melodies or lyrics, but I'm pretty good with writing fill-in parts and melodic solos to enhance the melody line.

I don't play by ear, but I can sight read at the piano (as long as it's not too difficult, and even then, I can sometimes simplify it on the fly to accommodate my level of playing, and I can play a passable accompaniment off a chord chart (and sing along at the same time). I know my style of playing, while not very technically proficient, has touched people (which is what music should do), because they have told me so when they didn't need to tell me so.

I greatly admire those who are "monsters", but that doesn't shy me away from playing what I can. I just try to learn from them. If they don't want me playing along, I'm sure they'll tell me - not a problem. When I had my praise band at church, we had several folks who would occasionally sit in with varying degrees of ability. I just told them to play what they know. I wouldn't do that if it were a paying gig, but church family loves you regardless (or at least they should) and doing that helped build the confidence of several budding musicians who would have put their instrument away forever otherwise.

And thank goodness for BIAB to cover all the things I can't do or even fathom coming up with. Such a wonderful tool to create music.
_________________________
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#454390 - 01/29/18 08:33 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5606
D: I play at a fairly proficient level. I wouldn't be afraid to walk on stage with the big name players and singers in country music, on guitar, and hold my own. I made a living at this for a part of my life doing just that. I also have a fairly wide understanding of music theory.... you know... the book learning part.

Yep... Ive seen players who don't know what a key signature is or what chords are the basis of a given key.....

Regarding writing a song, Yep... I've heard the same or similar comments regarding BB/RB.... but if you have the best tools in the world and don't understand them or the theory and practical use, you can forget using them in an effective way.

Kinda like putting a home recording enthusiast into a multi-million dollar state of the art studio and turning him loose to record. The result will sound like he did it in his bedroom. By the same token, take a pro recording engineer and give him a laptop in a bedroom and he'll turn out something that will blow your mind.
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#454398 - 01/29/18 08:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Guitarhacker]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4275
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
But the other side of the coin Herb is when you DO play with schooled players who know their theory!! I played in a Motown band for 3 years that was nothing BUT formally trained musicians and that made it just a joy to go to work. One particular night it was 1:50 and we had no more desire to play another song, so I started playing some nonsense on the keyboard and the guitar player kicked in with it, then the bass player, etc. Just by holding up fingers, we came up with a progression. They knew that 2 or 6 meant it would be a minor, and by the second pass through they had the basic progression. Then the guitarist started substituting more elaborate chords, adding suspensions and things like rather than a straight Dm playing a Dm7 add 9, stuff like that. The 3rd time through the sax player took a solo. And on the 4th time I ad libbed some lyrics, put in some other solos.... We filled the last 10 minutes with that non-song, and the next week (we were a Sunday night house band) people ASKED for "that new song you closed with last week".

And we couldn't do it because even then I had no memory! LOL!!

Point being, I couldn't have done that with people who can only play "what's on the reeeecorrrrrd".... As I typed this in I thought about it and it has been over 2 years since I went out to see a copy band. No interest at all in people playing music that is on CDs I own. I buy CDs of the original bands when I see them play. There is one really good room within 5 minutes from my house that solicits original music bands and requests that 75% of their set be original. What I personally find particularly annoying is when people turn out CDs of their originals and then refuse to play them live. Isn't the idea of a songwriter playing live to give the crowd a sample of what they will get of they spend $12 and buy a CD?

And there we end up back at the "levels of listening" topic so I'll stop.


Edited by eddie1261 (01/29/18 11:12 AM)
_________________________
Why does the Department of DEFENSE want a weapon with first strike capability? Wouldn't that be the Department of Offense?

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#454399 - 01/29/18 08:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Guitarhacker]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3899
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:
”Kinda like putting a home recording enthusiast into a multi-million dollar state of the art studio and turning him loose to record. The result will sound like he did it in his bedroom. By the same token, take a pro recording engineer and give him a laptop in a bedroom and he'll turn out something that will blow your mind.”


I had the enormous privilege of having a Grammy-nominated recording engineer do just that with my Sunn board and TEAC A2340-SX four-track RTR tape deck. As an experienced live sound engineer, I could do a lot; but he did more, and did it faster and better than I could. It was illuminating, to say the least!

R.
_________________________
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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#454416 - 01/29/18 09:36 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17205
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
I had no idea John played trumpet. Very cool. He heard me play my jazz compositions (written in BIAB) with a symphony orchestra.

Eddie, what’s a Dm7 add 0 ?
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#454424 - 01/29/18 11:11 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Matt Finley]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4275
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Eddie, what’s a Dm7 add 0 ?


LOL!!! A typo that I will fix!
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Why does the Department of DEFENSE want a weapon with first strike capability? Wouldn't that be the Department of Offense?

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#454425 - 01/29/18 11:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
sslechta Offline
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Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1185
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
That's a silent note.
_________________________


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PC: 1 TB SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory

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#454432 - 01/29/18 11:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: sslechta]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4275
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: sslechta
That's a silent note.


Or a chord embellishment that adds nothing to the song...
_________________________
Why does the Department of DEFENSE want a weapon with first strike capability? Wouldn't that be the Department of Offense?

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#454439 - 01/29/18 12:09 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
HearToLearn Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 1424
Loc: -
Everyone knows you can't add zero to a chord. You can only subtract it.
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-She

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#454451 - 01/29/18 12:51 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
jford Online   content
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10361
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:
I had no idea John played trumpet.


Yep, I played first chair in our small Fort Knox High School Band in 11th and 12th grade, as well as my sophomore and senior year in college at North Georgia College (a well-respected military college). I didn't my junior year, because I was band master, so I directed/conducted the band instead (although I was not a music major).

I remember one time at all-district band, I played last chair in the "A" band (missed first chair in the "B" band by one smile - Hah!) Anyway, we were playing a jazzy kind of piece and it just wasn't sounding right. So the director started with first chair and had each person in turn play the solo, and each time, he'd say, "No, no, no! That's not how it should sound." And he got closer and closer to me (I think we had 9 trumpeters), and I'm going, "Oh, crap! If they can't do it, who am I?" Anyway, I played the part, and the director said, "YES! That's exactly how it's supposed to sound". I tell you, I got a lot of glares from up the line, but I got to play the solo at the concert.

Over the years, I've played a few times at church and accompanying a local community chorale on occasion. I just can't find the time to practice, so I've lost my embouchure and range, but I can still pick it up and finger the notes, although my tone leaves a lot to be desired. The "want to play" is there, but too many competing priorities.
_________________________
John

HP Win10Pro-64, 8GB
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HP Win7Pro-64, 8GB

H/W-Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD, Casio Kbds
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#454473 - 01/29/18 02:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4275
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I think part of why I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this is that I have never used BIAB. Never once. Only RB. Since the day I got the program I have used Real Band. That file incompatibility between the 2 programs was not fathomable to me. I had someone send me a BIAB chart once a few years back along with the MP3 of his song. I opened RB, imported it MGU (That's it, right? MGU from BIAB?), and RB completely regenerated that song so it sounded very little like the original MP3. The chord progression was the same but the chord voicings and the overall flavor was different. SO when Joanne said "Open melodist" I had no idea what she was talking about because I have never asked this software to create on its own.


Edited by eddie1261 (01/29/18 03:35 PM)
_________________________
Why does the Department of DEFENSE want a weapon with first strike capability? Wouldn't that be the Department of Offense?

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#454480 - 01/29/18 03:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
KeithS Online   content
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 888
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Originally Posted By: eddie1261
How hard is it to work with a group when "Go to the 4th there" means nothing?


How much harder is it to say, “Play an ‘F’ there” than to say “Go to the 4th”? If I’m the guy in the room with the largest music vocabulary, hopefully I know more than one way to quickly communicate an idea to a musician with less formal training. If a person has no musical,talent at all, then there is no reason for me to waste my time making a song work; but If I’m collaborating with a talented amateur, I’ll find some way to communicate on their level to make it work. I don’t want to sound like Barney Fife.

Barney Fife: “I’m surprised at you, Andy. They want people who have had musical training. Why, suppose they ask Rafe to do something he don't know? Rafe, if they asked you to sing a cappella, could you do it?”
_________________________
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BIAB 2018 Audiophile
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Windows 7 64 Bit, SONAR Platinum, Sony Vegas 13, Acid 7, Sony Audio Master Suite, Waves Horizon Bundle, Izotope Ozone 7 Advanced

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#454489 - 01/29/18 03:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: KeithS]
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4275
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: KeithS
“I’m surprised at you, Andy. They want people who have had musical training. Why, suppose they ask Rafe to do something he don't know? Rafe, if they asked you to sing a cappella, could you do it?”


Well, Barney, what if they asked YOU to sing a capella?

To answer your question, are professionals in any field not expected to know basic basics? I never met anybody in IT that called their mouse "the clicky thing". Had I told that guy "Play an F there", what would have happened on the next song when we were in E and I needed the 4th? Should I need to spoon feed things to professionals? The 4th is always the 4th note in a scale. The physical chord, obviously, changes depending on the key.

Note that this same guy told us twice every week for 12 weeks "I am going to go start taking theory lessons." On week 12 I told him "Jesus Christ. Either start taking theory lessons or stop telling us you are going to start taking theory lessons. Had you started when you said you were going to you'd have 11 weeks of theory lessons under your belt."

Had he come in and said "I don't know a lot of theory" I would have known how to speak to him when he needed some direction. And would have been happy to help him learn had he asked. But he chose to bluff and made the same mistakes every rehearsal. Mistakes should happen only once. Not just in music. In life.

(Says the guy who was married 3 times...)
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Why does the Department of DEFENSE want a weapon with first strike capability? Wouldn't that be the Department of Offense?

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PG Music News
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