You need to be logged in to post on the forum
Topic Options
Index
#467406 - 04/15/18 03:51 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence?
zedd Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/11/16
Posts: 483
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Hey Folks,

I'm just curious to hear what some of you think about Band-in-a-Box being called "Artificial Intelligence"?

Performances are recorded by humans and an algorithm is able to intelligently recompile that data into different chord structures and string a progression together in musically intelligent ways. There are enough variations that randomizing the generation produces different results each time. But is it artificial intelligence, or just a clever algorithm?

Low-level AI? It isn't really composing the song rather than following a set of rules, I think. Not sure how the chord progressions are generated, but I think they are just a bunch of programmed chord progressions that can be randomized using some key basic rules that keep the new forms logical and harmonious.

At what point does it become AI?

I'm also wondering what PGMusic developers think about this too, and thinking about what kinds of AI might be added to the application in future for even more creative song constructions and track mixing?

Not sure if this is a silly question to be asking or not, but I was thinking about it and thought I'd see what some of you thought about it.

Cheerios,

Zedd
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Audiophile, DP 8, Mac OS X 10.8.5

Top
#467470 - 04/16/18 05:55 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I don't think BiaB is AI, but instead reflects the creativity and intelligence of Peter Gannon and his team.

I've written styles for a few auto-accompaniment hardware/software and software products, some "for hire" with non-disclosure clauses and with BiaB as an aftermarket business that I hope supports PG Music while making a little 'side money' for me so I don't have to travel to gig in the slow season.

Of the apps I have written for, BiaB has the most intelligent design and allows the style writer to put in things that the others do not.

The result is the output often seems like AI, and even with my own styles, sometimes surprises and delights me.

It's one of the reasons why over 25 years later, I'm still here, still writing aftermarket styles, and still enjoying using Band-in-a-Box.

IMHO we are all using the very best auto-accompaniment device available.

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top
#467520 - 04/16/18 12:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Matt Finley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17525
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Some would call it artificial intelligence only when it crosses the line after which a human can't tell it is not another human. I think BIAB is more like a decision support system. It can only call up RealTracks that have already been recorded. If we ever get to the point where the RealTracks are generated on the fly on demand from an infinite set of possibilities, then I will change my mind.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

Top
#467531 - 04/16/18 01:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: Matt Finley]
w Offline
Expert

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 974
Loc: somewhere in outer space
The dictionary sezs:

Quote:
the theory and development of computer systems able to perform tasks normally requiring human intelligence, such as visual perception, speech recognition, decision-making, and translation between languages.



However, i often wonder about Band-in-a-Box finding myself somewhat amazed at what i believe to be AI creating music.

How is it that i can type in just one chord in the first bar of let's say 32 bar chord sheet for any given style and away it goes. The human intervention was very limited and the creation of music was not human. I was not playing a keyboard or vocalizing or playing a harmonica by example.

Or i can select a style , type in the chords of a song, although do not add a melody for that song and when you hit play it does create an illusion that you are hearing/listening to that song. Here again the human intervention was limited.



Edited by w (04/16/18 01:32 PM)
Edit Reason: typing corrections
_________________________
Mac 2015,2016,2017,2018 Audiophile USB
DigitalPerformer 9, AppleLogicPro X, Steinberg's software
Roland + Yamaha MIDI Keyboards, Roland + Yamaha 16 track audio recorders
acoustic instruments including 2 Air Guitars
SC : https://soundcloud.com/you/tracks

Top
#467625 - 04/17/18 05:34 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
It's just following a set of instructions coded into the app by very intelligent people.

If it comes to the point where BiaB can initiate the desire to create a symphony and then create one, I'll go with AI. laugh

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top
#467716 - 04/17/18 11:00 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
jford Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10634
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
While it may seem like AI, I think to be AI it needs to be able to learn and adapt as it goes along. It merely follows its set rules, but doesn't adapt to learn more about how you do music the more you use it. Of course, the flip side of that is that it doesn't really provide the user with a means to give it feedback, so it is somewhat one-sided. What if it were more like:

BIAB: "Here's an arrangement I came up with. What do you think?"
USER: "Everything's good, except the drums for this style is too loud."
BIAB: "Okay, I'll adjust that for you so the next time you use the style, I'll tone down the drums a bit. How about now?"
USER: "Perfect"
BIAB: "Great; however, there's another style that probably does exactly what you want. Would you like to preview it and then decide which one to keep?"
USER: "Sure"
BIAB: "Okay, here it is"
USER: "Naw, I like the first one"
BIAB: "Okay, I'll not suggest the second one as a substitute again."

My $0.02 worth and probably not worth even that.
_________________________
John

HP Win10Pro-64, 8GB
ASUS Win10Pro-64, 16GB
HP Win7Pro-64, 8GB

H/W-Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD, Casio Kbds
S/W-BB/RB2018/Sonar/Reaper/Studio One/Samplitude/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Noteworthy/NI Komplete/Halion/Garritan/IK
Web-http://www.sus4chord.com

Top
#467888 - 04/18/18 12:26 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Good answer John.

Or:

User typing in a D chord

BiaB: This is a II chord and it seems like it is in a ii V7 I progression so consider making it a Dm chord. Of course if you want that major 3rd you could leave it, but I liked the sound of the minor better.

Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (04/18/18 12:27 PM)
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top
#467890 - 04/18/18 12:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: jford]
w Offline
Expert

Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 974
Loc: somewhere in outer space
^
jford,

and as always you windowguys will have that version before the Mac version is released

smile
_________________________
Mac 2015,2016,2017,2018 Audiophile USB
DigitalPerformer 9, AppleLogicPro X, Steinberg's software
Roland + Yamaha MIDI Keyboards, Roland + Yamaha 16 track audio recorders
acoustic instruments including 2 Air Guitars
SC : https://soundcloud.com/you/tracks

Top
#467893 - 04/18/18 12:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
jford Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10634
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
And what Notes said, too.
_________________________
John

HP Win10Pro-64, 8GB
ASUS Win10Pro-64, 16GB
HP Win7Pro-64, 8GB

H/W-Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD, Casio Kbds
S/W-BB/RB2018/Sonar/Reaper/Studio One/Samplitude/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Noteworthy/NI Komplete/Halion/Garritan/IK
Web-http://www.sus4chord.com

Top
#467954 - 04/18/18 03:49 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Matt Finley Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17525
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
I don't need a program arguing with me over my choice of chord; I get that enough from other musicians! (kidding)
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

Top
#468017 - 04/19/18 05:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I've quit some bands because of that Matt (only slight exaggeration).

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top
#468023 - 04/19/18 07:31 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: Matt Finley]
Mike Halloran Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 116
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
... If we ever get to the point where the RealTracks are generated on the fly on demand from an infinite set of possibilities, then I will change my mind.

Well, I have to agree with that.
_________________________
BIAB Audiophile on 2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, OS 10.13.3
Overture 5, DP 9.51, LogicProX, Finale 25, Encore 5.0.7 SmartScoreX2-P Notion 6
Old G4-1K DP OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2, Legacy Apps

Top
#468028 - 04/19/18 07:48 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
jford Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10634
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
And I don't want BIAB to be so smart that I can be able to say, "Hey, BIAB, write the next hit song for me!" "Okay, there you go!"

I like that it does a lot based on my own input, but I still want to retain control artistically, while at the same time not getting mired down by having to manually deal with every little possibility. I love the balance of being able to pick a style that's close to what I hear in my head, perhaps regen it a few times to get it close (and probably good enough), and then if I want to, I can always load it into a DAW and slice and dice it to the nth degree. That last part only happens on a select number of songs. Life's too short.
_________________________
John

HP Win10Pro-64, 8GB
ASUS Win10Pro-64, 16GB
HP Win7Pro-64, 8GB

H/W-Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD, Casio Kbds
S/W-BB/RB2018/Sonar/Reaper/Studio One/Samplitude/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Noteworthy/NI Komplete/Halion/Garritan/IK
Web-http://www.sus4chord.com

Top
#468109 - 04/19/18 08:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: jford]
Mike Halloran Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/24/17
Posts: 116
Loc: Sillie Con Valley, California
Originally Posted By: jford
... then if I want to, I can always load it into a DAW and slice and dice it to the nth degree. ...


I don't slice and dice to that extent but...

I use BIAB for vanity projects where I get it close to what the client wants then export the MIDI to Digital Performer. There I assign VIs form among the libraries I own.

Without BIAB, I'd have to charge thou$and$ more for these custom projects. Even though the Real Tracks in BIAB Audiophile never make the final version, it's nice to have them for the demo—it gives the client confidence in my abilities to give them what they want.

Now, if the client says, "Perfect, I'll put my vocals over that.", then the Real Tracks would make the final but that hasn't happened yet.
_________________________
BIAB Audiophile on 2010 iMac i7, 32G RAM, 2T SSD, OS 10.13.3
Overture 5, DP 9.51, LogicProX, Finale 25, Encore 5.0.7 SmartScoreX2-P Notion 6
Old G4-1K DP OS 10.4.11 / OS 9.2, Legacy Apps

Top
#468208 - 04/20/18 12:26 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: Matt Finley]
zedd Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/11/16
Posts: 483
Loc: Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
It's just following a set of instructions coded into the app by very intelligent people.


I believe you are right! The intelligence here is not artificial but rather human ingenuity.


Originally Posted By: jford
While it may seem like AI, I think to be AI it needs to be able to learn and adapt as it goes along. It merely follows its set rules, but doesn't adapt to learn more about how you do music the more you use it. Of course, the flip side of that is that it doesn't really provide the user with a means to give it feedback, so it is somewhat one-sided. What if it were more like:

BIAB: "Here's an arrangement I came up with. What do you think?"
USER: "Everything's good, except the drums for this style is too loud."
BIAB: "Okay, I'll adjust that for you so the next time you use the style, I'll tone down the drums a bit. How about now?"
USER: "Perfect"
BIAB: "Great; however, there's another style that probably does exactly what you want. Would you like to preview it and then decide which one to keep?"
USER: "Sure"
BIAB: "Okay, here it is"
USER: "Naw, I like the first one"
BIAB: "Okay, I'll not suggest the second one as a substitute again."


Indeed, jford, indeed. That would be authentic AI and such an enhancement could certainly enhance workflow and the user experience, though I won't expect this until at least BIAB 2028.


Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
I don't need a program arguing with me over my choice of chord; I get that enough from other musicians! (kidding)

<giggle>

Good point! But on the other hand, it would be cool to have AI which you could enable or disable to actually suggest chord adjustments or improvements to the progression that might have greater impact based on a study of popular "hit" songs in certain style. It would be up to us to decide whether we should argue with the AI if in fact the chord progression ended up a bit more interesting than we had made it for ourselves.

Great feedback folks. Thanks for all your comments and discussion on this! I'm glad I brought it up.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Audiophile, DP 8, Mac OS X 10.8.5

Top
#468289 - 04/21/18 03:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Teunis Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 259
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
In the early days intelligent systems were little more than a series of "if this occurs then do this" if not then if it is this "do this" or else look for the next option. This would look on and on and work its way through a number of iterations. Depending on how well the programmer knew the problem and the possible resolutions was how good the AI system was.

One of the creepiest things I toyed with back in the Commodore 64 days was a thing called ELISA basically this thing analysed your fellings and it worked. How, by asking a question using what you said and a simple set of rules and a basic database that simply fired back at you what you told it. One could sit at this for 30 minutes and you could feel better about yourself. What it really did do was make you think how can a Commodore 64, a toy, do this to me.

Many smart systems I have worked on or with, learnt what fixes were applied in what situation. These systems could indeed recall and repair very complex issues. However if ever faced with an issue the system had never seen before, it was of no real use. Similar to calling most call centres "if your issue is not in the system then it cannot exist" the last else is usually "try the latest update if that doesn't work then contact the user forum maybe that'll fix it".

Using BIAB one sets the chord progression then finds an appropriate set of instruments that fit the pattern (I often find the the instruments - style whatever then design the pattern). Rarely do I use a style without changing or adding a track but that is me. Often, once I have the song down I'll put it into a daw and manipulate parts moving a few bars that sound better here or maybe regenerate a part in RealBand to get something I like better. I may even add my own piece or add a midi part to enhance it (well make it the way I want it).

BB is super clever, it has an absolutely brilliant support team making it even more so. It has the forums lending more weight. Is it artificially intelligent I don't think so but I do think the folk behind it and the support is incredibly intelligent.

My long winded thoughts

Tony


Edited by Teunis (04/21/18 03:41 AM)
_________________________
HP i7-4770 16GB 512G SSD, Win 10 Home,
Roland Quad Capture, M-Audio Oxygen, Maton CW80, Telecaster + more
BIAB 2018 (516) RB 2018 (5), CakeWalk by BandLab, Reaper, Audacity, Melodyne

Top
#468293 - 04/21/18 05:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh] Re: Is Band-in-a-Box Artificial Intelligence? [Re: zedd]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I think it will be AI the day it does things on it's own initiative that the programmers did not code into it, learn from the results of what it did, and improve it on it's own the next time the situations presented themselves.

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top


PG Music News
National One-Hit Wonder Day!

Today is NATIONAL ONE-HIT WONDER DAY!

Have you ever created a "one-hit wonder" (that you'll admit to)? Post it to this thread - we'd love to hear it!

Complete RealBand 2018 Users Guide - Interactive Online Version Available!

Visit our Online Manuals support page, and you'll find our latest addition - the online manual for the RealBand 2018 for Windows User's Guide!

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/rb2018full/index.htm

Just like the other Online Manuals now available on our Support page, this User's Guide can be easily navigated by chapter, or using the main Table of Contents window!

Band-in-a-Box® Testimonial Video - Endorsing Artist Steve Wallace

Check out the latest Band-in-a-Box® Testimonial Video from endorsing artist Steve Wallace!
www.pgmusic.com/?vid=6QcPF5cQjKw

"With the vast array of RealTracks and styles offered, Band-in-a-Box is a phenomenal program that can help any musician and composer hone their skills."
-Steve Wallace

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac review on www.guitaren.dk!

www.guitaren.dk has recently reviewed Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac, which can be read here.

Summary:

"Our conclusion is that this is a very serious and well done piece of software.The program is fast and flawless and you'll very quick get impressive results just typing the name of the chords. The new functions are exiting and worthy to be includes in this anniversary upgrade.
We were very impressed by the MIDI SuperTracks, which is simply brilliant. It’s a function in Band-in-a-Box that's here to stay.
It's amazing that the programs feel is so fresh and innovative after 30 years. This version is better than ever and should be a in every home studio or pro studio... Congratulations with the anniversary! We love you as the ex-wife we did not know we were missing.
"

Band-in-a-Box®: Part of The Ultimate Desktop Guitar Practice Rig!

Check out the latest Sweetwater article from Mitch Gallagher: "The Ultimate Desktop Guitar Practice Rig" - he's included Band-in-a-Box!

"The king of backing track creation, in my opinion, is Band-in-a-Box (BIAB). It can do everything from country to jazz to metal, with a huge array of instruments and options. There is a great selection of songs and BIAB tracks available for free on the web, so you don’t even have to make your own."
-Mitch Gallagher
www.sweetwater.com

#TBT - The First Audiophile Edition

A blast from the past... the introduction of the Audiophile Edition with Band-in-a-Box 2008.5!

The first Audiophile purchase included the WAV files for all the RealTracks & RealDrums that were available at that time: RealTracks Sets 1-9 and RealDrums Sets 1-20. It shipped pre-installed on a 250GB USB hard drive - take a look...

Wondering what else was introduced with Band-in-a-Box 2008.5? Click here to see the "Band-in-a-Box 2008.5 New Features List."

RealBand 2018 Interactive Online Upgrade Manual Available!

The newest addition to our Online Manuals support page is the RealBand 2018 New Features Guide!

Just like the other Online Manuals now available on our Support page, this Upgrade Manual can be easily navigated by chapter, or using the main Table of Contents window!

Forum Stats
27992 Members
57 Forums
54097 Topics
446288 Posts

Max Online: 2434 @ 11/14/17 12:37 AM
Newest Members
smokinhalfnote, snenamor, yes daddy music, grivers, mononino

27992 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Alyssa - PG Music 499
David Snyder 181
Al-David 139
MarioD 127
Deryk - PG Music 115
Jim Fogle 109
Matt Finley 102
VideoTrack 97
Janice & Bud 95
Icelander 91
Today's Birthdays
chardin, Steve Ducote