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I've never practiced enough to have my accompaniment to my favorite cover songs come out fluently.

And I think having to look at chord charts during a performance takes a bit away from the performance.

For those of you that feel the same, and have mastered the accompaniment to a large number of cover songs....how do you go about it ? How do you
- practice and memorize them,
- review them,
- how many times do you think you have to play/practice them before they are forever sealed in your memory for the future ?
- if you have to memorize the words too - how do you go about that ?
- how often do you have to review ? e.g. until they are forever in your brain ?

Do you think some techniques work far better than others, and you could contrast them and share why ?

As always, thanks.

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Rehearse. 10 hours of rehearsal for every hour you will spend on stage.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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With well over 550 songs in our book, it's difficult to memorize them all. Especially since some of the songs are not pulled out often.

But most of them are memorized anyway, and to tell you the truth, I don't know how I do it.

The chords come quite easy to me, it's the words that I find hardest to memorize.

I keep cheat sheets up (on computer) and glance at it, mostly for the first word in a line or section. I've already practiced enough to not need to read it. Then little by little the need to glance gets less and less.

Now if we pull out a song we haven't played in a few months, there will be more glances, but still much more eye contact with the audience than the screen.

Sorry if that is not much help.

Notes


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10 hours for 1 hours on stage - not bad...but for how many days or months before !!!

Eddie - for having played so long, I imagine you can take a new tune you've heard but never practiced, and get it into your long term memory far quicker than a beginner could (assuming no techical barriers for a beginner).

I have some songs I've practice so frequently, my fingers go where they need to without thinking - even of the names of the chords.

But everything I'm doing recently, I'm still having to look at the key name and review the progression numbers before I play it....I suppose what I really need to do is practice a group of songs - 2 or 3 not to get board, until my fingers go to the right places without thinking, before I move onto the next 2 or 3 songs....I think that's next for me.

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Joe, after you play those songs long enough, depending on how well you retain things (and that is VERY different for everybody) you will know them soon enough. Unlike Notes huge catalog, which they need because of the varied places they played, I was always in bands that had maybe 60 active songs at a time. And when we learned a new one, an old one went out. 3 sets, 13 songs each. Those sets would have a solid 10 that were there every night, and 3 variables we plugged in. We ran things different than a lot of bands. If we had a gig Thursday night, we had our sets on Wednesday so if there was a guitar change needed or a sample I had to load from a disc, I could make a note on the set that the change was coming. Very little down time between songs. In fact the 2nd set was 60 minutes that did not stop. But again, different situations.

A song you play once a year is different from a song you play 5 nights a week.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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My problem was how to forget them. smile We played nearly the same set lists for way, way too long.

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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
My problem was how to forget them. smile We played nearly the same set lists for way, way too long.


Amen!! I could probably play the rock band's set list from 1987 right now.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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I would learn the first one to where I was comfortable with the song and could play through with very little distraction of thinking "what's next".
Then learn the next one the same way.
Then go back to the first and improve it, move on to the second and improve it, then add the third.

Pretty soon you'll find yourself just playing through the first one to get to the next and next .. so you can focus on a new one again (psychological side of it). Plus the discipline of going back reinforces muscle memory.

Not long after you get to knowing 3 or 4 you'll know 10 .. improvement comes with practice on this task just like others; you'll start to get faster at it the more you do it.
Don't just try to learn one, then the next, then the next, remember to go back go back and re-remember the ones you did previously. It'll only take a few minutes and keeps them fresh in the mind ..I think of it like a computer uses cache <grin>; it's worth storing special if you are going to need it often. This exercise helps your mind keep it in the 'recently needed' area and fresher in memory for faster recall.



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Now I find the hardest thing is to remember the names of the songs. Once I remember the name, I have a shot at the chords and lyrics. Invariably I get them back to front or forget a verse etc. So many songs are turnarounds, 2, 5, 1, 3 chords or blues.... which helps (sometimes). Why is it just as hard to remember your own songs and lyrics? Using backing tracks on auto play helps....


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Arrange and rehearse the sets in keys. Practice practice practice. Think of a color for a progression practice the colors

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Originally Posted By: rockstar_not
Arrange and rehearse the sets in keys. Practice practice practice. Think of a color for a progression practice the colors

+1
understand and use the nashville number system instead of actual chord names ex. I IV V instead of C F G

practice in common keys, CAGED the most common progressions and parts of like ii V I iii7 vi ii V7 I

use a capo



How to Memorize Lyrics, Chords and Chord Progressions

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A capo?? No capo's on a piano and there shouldn't be one on a guitar either.

It's already been touched on but I'll refine it a bit.

Take say 5 songs to start and do them all every day, 7 days a week. Put pressure on yourself as if you're at a gig. If you mess up you don't get to stop and get a do over. No, you're performing and you'll just have to fake it. A few days, maybe a week of that and you'll have those 5 tunes down. Do another 5 but perform them with the first 5 so you're "playing a gig" with 10 songs, then another 5 and another 5 etc. Remember, this is like a live final rehearsal, no do overs, mess up and you just fake it and move on.

Can't see yourself doing that because you have a life outside of memorizing songs?

What was your question again?

Bob


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Bob, I have to call baloney on saying no capos on guitars. Many reasons, but primarily the one that might resonate best with you is that saying guitarists should not use capos is like saying you have to play a song with odd sounding voicing and inversions on a keyboard because you are only allowed to play in a certain range of notes on the keyboard. Capos allow the right chord voicing to be played to get the arrangement of notes to ring correctly.

The number of songs played with capos and alternate tunings they sound just the way they do is too long to list.

I will name one very well known example: Jumpin Jack Flash as played by Keith Richards. It just doesn’t sound right unless the guitar is tuned to an open tuning AND capoed.

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As a confirmed iconoclast I take delight in staring studiously at the chord chart on my iPad.

This benefits me greatly as I have no need to remember chords and I can avoid making eye contact with the audience.

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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Can't see yourself doing that because you have a life outside of memorizing songs?

What was your question again?

Bob


Very well put Bob (... which is actually typical for you. I have come to appreciate your wry humor and straight talk) wink

The answer to the OP's question is obvious; practice, practice, practice. How long it takes depends on how much talent you have talent and how much time you got.

There was a time when I would ask myself, why can't I perform at a "near" professional level. I stopped asking that question long ago and I came to peace with reality. First, despite having a love for music creation, I was not blessed with the natural talent to satisfy that love. And second, almost as important, my life decisions took me down a different path long before my music came along.



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Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Can't see yourself doing that because you have a life outside of memorizing songs?

What was your question again?

Bob


Very well put Bob (... which is actually typical for you. I have come to appreciate your wry humor and straight talk) wink

The answer to the OP's question is obvious; practice, practice, practice. How long it takes depends on how much talent you have talent and how much time you got.

There was a time when I would ask myself, why can't I perform at a "near" professional level. I stopped asking that question long ago and I came to peace with reality. First, despite having a love for music creation, I was not blessed with the natural talent to satisfy that love. And second, almost as important, my life decisions took me down a different path long before my music came along.



....And then Biab came along...


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Originally Posted By: musiclover
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Can't see yourself doing that because you have a life outside of memorizing songs?

What was your question again?

Bob


Very well put Bob (... which is actually typical for you. I have come to appreciate your wry humor and straight talk) wink

The answer to the OP's question is obvious; practice, practice, practice. How long it takes depends on how much talent you have talent and how much time you got.

There was a time when I would ask myself, why can't I perform at a "near" professional level. I stopped asking that question long ago and I came to peace with reality. First, despite having a love for music creation, I was not blessed with the natural talent to satisfy that love. And second, almost as important, my life decisions took me down a different path long before my music came along.



....And then Biab came along...


EXACTLY, and that changed everything. grin


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Practice, practice, practice. I can't formally play any instrument or read a lick of sheet music, so I find it to be an amazing skill to watch. Above Eddie said 10 hours of practice for every 1 hour on stage, and that basically hits the nail on the head. My dad was a professional performer, and he'd rehearse hours every day for 2 weeks straight before doing a show that lasted an hour and a half.


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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
<...snip...>I was always in bands that had maybe 60 active songs at a time. And when we learned a new one, an old one went out.<...>

Been there, done that. In a Top40 cover band, the song of the week had to be learned, and last month's song was too old to play anymore.

It was good training, and learning to cover many different bands styles was good education.

I find if I can remember the first note or chord or word of the song, the rest comes around.

Capo?

Not for me.

Why?

Putting the capo on makes the guitar sharp by pushing the string between two frets. Then when you put your finger down between another two frets, that string goes even sharper.

The saxophone is not in tune with itself. Each note is different. For decades I listen to the sax tone, and adjust the vertical position of my lower lip to make the note in tune (or intentionally out of tune). Put the capo on and a finger on and the note is sharp enough to bug me. I want to adjust it.

Of course, for the general public it's probably OK, so if someone else wants to use one, it's their business.

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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton

.... snip

Putting the capo on makes the guitar sharp by pushing the string between two frets. Then when you put your finger down between another two frets, that string goes even sharper.



I use a capo sometimes for recording, and as rockstar_not pointed out it has nothing to do with not being able to play the chords, it has to do with getting the open voicing which for some material is very important.

Pitch is not an issue, I just tune the guitar slightly flat so that when I put the capo on it is in perfect tune.

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Although I play horns, I need to know the chords of songs for soloing. If it’s a song I’m trying to learn, I like to write it out by ear (called transcribing). If I write anything, I have the ability to recall it, including music. This is not normal, I realize, but there is still great value in transcribing something to really understand it.


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Originally Posted By: rockstar_not
Bob, I have to call baloney on saying no capos on guitars.

I will name one very well known example: Jumpin Jack Flash as played by Keith Richards. It just doesn’t sound right unless the guitar is tuned to an open tuning AND capoed.


Scott, I couldn't disagree more with you. First of all, I don't know why people looking for examples to back their theory immediately turn the apples and oranges comparisons of major stars to newbie musicians. Keith plays that on a 3 string Tele and he has been playing guitar since he came over on the Mayflower. He knows how to play. This guy asking the question can barely play anything.

Rookie players who learn to play with a capo will learn how to play an open position A, D and E. Then by moving the capo around and playing those 3 chords, they can bluff their way through 1000 songs having never learned how to play the guitar. They learn songs ON a guitar, but to have something thrown at them in Eb, then what? Those fret markers are there for a reason. Learn the neck. Play every song you know in every key. (If ONE more person says "That's the wrong key" to me I am going to punch them. There is no wrong key. The key in which a song is recorded is just the key THAT singer is comfortable with.) Learn the neck. Do you also propose that keyboard players play only in C and buy a keyboard with a key transpose button so they can play everything in no sharps or flats by transposing? (So Bob, a piano has no capo, but a synthesizer can. My Roland Juno 60 had a transpose button on it, and when I would go to sessions that saw things thrown at me for sight reading in keys with 4 sharps or 3 flats, things that would have required a lot of practice to get voicings, I would transpose to where I played in C. It's cheating, but when they are paying for no more than 2 takes, it has to be done.)

Your argument is the same as those people who immediately want to say "SINATRA DIDN'T WRITE!!!" It doesn't matter what Sinatra did. It matters what Joe Smith does.

There are no shortcuts. Too many people are looking for them. Put in the hours. Kids today are buying sequences, loading them into their keyboards, and pressing the start button, and calling it playing a keyboard. That is not playing anything. There are no shortcuts.

You old enough to remember Heathkit products? For those who don't you could buy these kits and build small things like transistor radios. The kit had all the pieces and solder, and you took Board A and to it soldered resistor 32b between holes 47 and 49. And when you did that, if you followed directions, you had a working little radio.

Did that make you en electrical engineer, or just someone who can follow directions?

Now we have these "Blue Apron" kind of things that send you food and a set of directions. When you finish making your crusted salmon, did you really "cook" anything, or did you merely become the hands that assembled a dish from the directions?

There are no shortcuts. This forum sees far too many questions that ask how to cut into the express lane and bypass years of practicing. The answer?

You don't. There are no shortcuts. Don't play one chord form with a capo. Learn the neck. There are 12 keys. Learn them all. Every fret. Every fret marker. Every chord formant. Barre. Double barre. Start in C. Move to G and add a sharp. Then move to D and add another sharp. Until you run out of sharps. Then go back to C and go the other direction. Go to F and add one flat. Then to Bb and add another flat.

Learn MUSIC, not songs. If you know music, songs follow. If you learn songs, music does NOT follow. Music is not aural. Music is knowledge. Songs are aural. Notes on a paper are not music. Music is knowing that the little dot on the 2nd space up with the line extending up is a quarter note A. And that if there is a dot behind it you add half the value to the original.

You can learn songs and dazzle your circle of friends around the campfire at the weenie roast. Dazzling your friends is the easy part. Your friends won't tell you if you stink. (Well, MINE would. And DO!!)

Last edited by eddie1261; 06/05/18 06:55 AM.

I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
If I write anything, I have the ability to recall it, including music. This is not normal, I realize


Actually, Matt, that is extremely normal. You can hear something or read something, and that can be a fleeting memory to your brain. But once you add the tactility of actually using your eyes to see it, your brain to think it and your hands to write it, you are many times more likely to remember it.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Eddie, most people don’t string their guitars with just three strings, which if you have loads of guitars l, I suppose you could do that instead of using a capo.

Using a capo is absolutely as musical and important to learn how to play pop and rock tunes authentically to their orignal sound as is learning the fretboard.

To say that capos should not be used is just being pedantic.

As for saying that capoing pulls strings sharp is only true if you don’t know how to capo correctly by assuming that the capo should press down only on the strings and/or action that is too high and/or the capo pushes too hard. Since giving examples is not allowed in the discussion, I can say that I can tell what voicing a guitarist is using and using a capo. So many songs use the open G C2 Dsus4 Em where the guitarist is holding the DG down with fingers 3 and 4 on the 3rd fret, except not in G, in other keys There are not enough fingers to make those voicings with even the most skilled barre technique. Capo it is.

So forget famous use of capos if that doesn’t stand as evidence, let the ear lead you to the truth.

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I guess I'm blessed with a good ear for music, and a also good memory for chords and lead (I play keyboard) However there is ONE song that I've been playing for over 40 years that I still need the music for. It's the middle 8 (bridge) of Girl From Ipanema. No matter how hard I try I can never get it right the first time. frown


Although I'm not actively playing in a band (just a couple of times a year) I still practise around 6 hours per week. I play every song I have in BIAB and it generally takes me around 9 to 12 months to get though all of the songs. Then I start all over again. smile


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Originally Posted By: BlueAttitude
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton

.... snip

Putting the capo on makes the guitar sharp by pushing the string between two frets. Then when you put your finger down between another two frets, that string goes even sharper.



I use a capo sometimes for recording, and as rockstar_not pointed out it has nothing to do with not being able to play the chords, it has to do with getting the open voicing which for some material is very important.

Pitch is not an issue, I just tune the guitar slightly flat so that when I put the capo on it is in perfect tune.

I can see how that would work, but it's not for me. I'm a doubler on guitar and have a lot more to learn before those kinds of tricks. Right now it's all standard tuning, and I won't be trying anything else until I get much better at that.

Sax, flute, and wind synth are my primary instruments, bass, guitar, drums, and keys I get along with, but other than bass, I wouldn't audition to play them in a band.

But I've always said, there is more than one right way to make music. I don't use a capo for my reasons, but I certainly do not look down on others who do.

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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Although I play horns, I need to know the chords of songs for soloing. If it’s a song I’m trying to learn, I like to write it out by ear (called transcribing). If I write anything, I have the ability to recall it, including music. This is not normal, I realize, but there is still great value in transcribing something to really understand it.

That's my viewpoint as well.

And it's another reason why I make my own backing tracks rather than buying a MIDI or Karaoke track. I want to know what the chords are plus what substitutions are used and why. If I'm going to improvise over the changes, I want to know what the changes are.

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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
<...snip...>There are no shortcuts. Too many people are looking for them. <...>

Learn MUSIC, not songs. If you know music, songs follow. If you learn songs, music does NOT follow. <...>

Learn MUSIC, not songs is the simplest, best advice anyone can give a beginner musician.

I picked up guitar and bass as a sax player in road bands. If there was no room for a sax in a song, the guitar or bass player would show me things and I'd play guitar or bass on the song.

Knowing music theory made it easy on the brain. I just had to learn the musical layout and physical mechanics of the instruments.

I wasn't taught 'cowboy chords' first (that's why my first guitar teacher called them - and he was a whiz at fingerpicking). I learned barre chords so any key was OK with me right from the start.

Now on the sax (and piano) changing the key requires completely different fingerings. So when I learned a song on a guitar, and it required a key change and I found my fingers made the same shapes, same fingerings, but up one fret on the neck, it was like giving a kid an piece of candy!!! Hey, do you want to modulate again????

I can see legitimate uses for a capo, but not as a crutch. My attitude is what you do should support the music. If the capo makes the particular song sound better, use it. If moveable chords make it sound better, use them.

I have a transpose pedal on my wind synth. I'll turn the synth into a Bb instrument when playing Bb Tenor sax parts and Eb when playing Eb alto parts (same for soprano or bari). And I imagine I could use it to play hard songs in easier keys, but that won't help my skills any, so I don't use it that way.

But there is more than one right way to do this. I do what works for me and what I personally think supports the music best.

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Seriously, Scott? "Can't give examples"? Passive aggressive much?

THAT example was bad. ONE song by a guy who has been playing guitar for 175 years does not make a point to a guy who can barely play open E and open G. A capo TO A NEW PLAYER is a crutch that shortcuts the process by allowing them to play knowing almost nothing about the instrument, and that should be avoided. That is a microwave world mentality perspective on what "playing guitar" really is. Learn the neck. In every key. Every chord fingering position. In every key. Learn key signatures. Until I can say "4 flats" and the student can say "E flat" without counting on their fingers, they are not ready to play. MUSIC first. Then songs.

If you want to go with bombastic examples, how much does Clapton use a capo? How much did Gary Moore use a capo? Or SRV? Talking about alternate tunings to a guy at newbie player level? You can't apply the knowledge base of a seasoned player to a newbie. Well, you CAN, but it doesn't hold water. Get me started on the "right hand on the neck" garbage that people still think was invented by Van Halen.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Originally Posted By: Joe V
I've never practiced enough to have my accompaniment to my favorite cover songs come out fluently.

And I think having to look at chord charts during a performance takes a bit away from the performance.

For those of you that feel the same, and have mastered the accompaniment to a large number of cover songs....how do you go about it ? How do you
- practice and memorize them,
- review them,
- how many times do you think you have to play/practice them before they are forever sealed in your memory for the future ?
- if you have to memorize the words too - how do you go about that ?
- how often do you have to review ? e.g. until they are forever in your brain ?

Do you think some techniques work far better than others, and you could contrast them and share why ?

As always, thanks.


Let me go all the way back to the beginning when I first started learning guitar. Lots of time spent learning the chords.

Music theory is really helpful.... but break it down to this.

Most songs are comprised of 3 chords, and a minor 6th on occasion. Learn them as 1, 4, 5, 6m then they can be moved to any key and it works. I started playing my guitar along with the radio. The 1,4,5,6m was really handy and soon, the songs became muscle memory that I could drive on autopilot.

Listen to the song, figure out if there's any "unique chords" other than 1,4,5 and write them down.

The more time you can put into this, especially at the beginning, the faster you will learn it and in many cases, you don't have to think about the next chord. Your body and subconscious already knows where you're going next. I've had many conversations on stage while in the middle of a song and never missed a chord.

Words are similar but different. Often, if you really like the song, you can learn it quickly. I, and others in our band, would use cheat sheets on the floor for the newer songs until they became second nature. Just the first line or a few words from the first line on a cue sheet on the floor. It's not a bad thing to have a music stand, just use a good one, and have the songs with chords and lyrics in a folder. As a solo act performer for a few years, I used that setup. Sure beats guessing at the keys and words in songs that you don't play often. Regarding the use of cue sheets..... You should know the songs well enough that you only have to glance at them occasionally and don't need to rely on them for the entire song. If you rely on them, learn the song better.
In spite of all the time spent learning lyrics and chords.... you will forget them at the most inopportune times. So, knowing how to make things up....fake it.... is a really helpful talent to have. One time, I drew a total blank on the next line.... no panic... I just sang a bunch of nonsense words that fit the rhythm and kept going. The correct words came back for the following line. Of course the band knew. Only one person in the audience commented. Her comment was something to the effect that if she didn't know the song, she'd have never known that I forgot the words. Don't panic, either keep quiet or make something up. Chances are good that the audience won't know. OR..... if the audience is singing.... let them sing for you. Heck... even tell them, Hey, help me out here, you sing this song. They will think it's audience participation and not that you forgot the words.

There's no such thing as "forever in your brain". If you don't use it, you will lose it. Hence the reason for cue sheets.

Regarding using a CAPO.... I have one or two of them around here and use them. I don't use them primarily for playing the song in familiar, easy chords while in a different key.... I use them to change the tonal quality of the chords in a song as part of the sound I'm looking for. I have spent the time to learn to play ALL the main chords on the guitar. That used to blow the minds of the young guitar slinger guys in the church band/orchestra. They always used a CAPO on Bb and Eb keys (and more) .... and write the CAPO'd chords so they could play the song. Me, I'd just play the Eb key's chords and go on with life and the song. Eb & Bb are common keys I think, because the wind and brass instruments tend to be made in those keys naturally.

I don't know if this is useful or the best thing since sliced bread.... just practice until it becomes second nature. Play along with the radio .... country & folk & bluegrass is easier than pop when doing this. Rock is good too.

In time it will become easy.


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Gig story

Many years ago, when Disco first hit mainstream I was playing in a cover band.

We did a gig where we alternated sets with the DJ - 30 minutes on / 30 minutes off. The DJ also ran the lights while we were playing.

So we learned this new (at the time) song, "You'll Never Find Another Love Like Mine" by Lou Rawls. A nice enough "sound of Philadelphia" song. The lead singer/guitarist hadn't learned all the words so he wrote them down on a piece of paper in red ink, and taped it to the cornice right above our line of sight.

So we started the song, the DJ flooded the stage with red lights, and the words disappeared. He sang the first verse over and over again.

GuitarHacker, I don't know about you, but while many of the songs we learn are I, IV, V7 and vi, well over half of them have much more than that.

I do agree that you can get a lot of mileage with them, but the other cords aren't 'special' they are part of the family of chords in each key. IMO calling them special chords negates their important in the key. Would you call the ii7 chord special? the iii? And so on?

You need to know why the ii, iii and vi are minor and why the viio is diminished.

And that's just very basic theory.

Learn the neck, learn how chords are constructed, learn their relationship, learn basic music theory, learn to read music on your instrument, then when you learn songs you understand the songs.

Just learning songs would be like learning to read by just recognizing words without knowing how to pronounce the individual letters.

I know it's not instant gratification, but it works out to be the easy way in the long run.

And I admit, learning to read music on the guitar is more difficult than learning to read music on piano or saxophone. But there are other things on the guitar that are easier (like transposing) that make up for it.

But once you learn your instrument, learning new songs are easier, and memorizing is also easier because you understand what you are doing instead of just parroting.

That's my opinion anyway.

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Joe V

I’m sorry to see that your thread got hijacked by the Capo debate, and though I’m going to contribute to that body of faux controversy later, I’ll give you the courtesy of addressing your question first.

First, I think you are right not using chord charts during a live performance. There are too many other thing going on. For the same reason, you should practice so you can play without looking at your hands. A good performance involves moving around and interacting with your audience and fellow musicians. Maintaining focus on other things makes your performance and your enjoyment of it fall apart.

I don’t know a lot of tricks other than repetition. When I’m practicing, I first break a song up into manageable pieces and get each piece right before practicing it as a whole. I make a point of not practicing mistakes but makes sure to perfect a part played in error before practicing it again. When I practice the song I’m identifying places where I’m less confident and going back and paying more attention.

When I learn a song, I use a combination of notebooks and crib sheets. My notebooks are my permanent written record of the chord chart and lyrics. My crib sheets are my fold up, carry around learning tool. I run either the chord changes or lyrics through my head even when I’m doing things other than practicing. If I find I’m having recall problems, at an opportune time, I pull the crib sheet out of my pocket and review the part I had trouble recalling, then put the crib sheet back in my pocket. My crib sheet is with me constantly while my note book is primarily sitting on a music stand if I’m actually practicing. My crib sheets are usually in tatters by the time I’ve learned a song completely.

In a formal practice session, I try to treat things like a performance. I don’t look at music, chord sheets, lyrics, my hands or anything else I can’t access during a stage performance. If I make a mistake, I bulldoze through it, (ad libbing if necessary) then immediately review problems, rinse, repeat, until the song is perfected. I lot of the process is to make things automatic, through repetition, muscle memory, and subconscious recall.

When the song is memorized, I make a new clean crib sheet, which I paper clip inside my notebook. The notebook travels with me to performances so that if I get concerned about a song I can take a peek on a break.

I apologize if this sounds like Captain Obvious, but this has been my way of doing thing for a long time.


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Let's reach back to the very first line in the original post.

Originally Posted By: Joe V
I've never practiced enough to have my accompaniment to my favorite cover songs come out fluently.


If I was a lawyer in a courtroom, I would blurt out "Asked and answered."

The answer to this whole thread, despite the detours it has taken?

Practice "enough".

Once again, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS OR EXPRESS LANES TO PROFICIENCY.

Post after post pretty much asking people to practice FOR you doesn't help you get better.

Welders get better at welding by welding, not asking other people how they weld. Masons get better at laying brick by laying brick, not asking other people who they lay brick.

Practice. Practice. Practice.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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If I were the judge, I’d bang down my gavel and say, “Overruled!”

Joe V didn’t ask for short cuts to practicing.

He asked us if there were specific learning and memorization techniques that we have used that we found more benefitial than others.

I seldom say this because it sounds so arrogant, but with an IQ on the north side of 140, I have to remind myself that not everyone learns and remembers things the same way that I do. When I’m teaching anyone on any subject, I’m looking for alternative ways of imparting something that comes naturally to me. Not everyone learns the same way or has the same ability to retain information. My wife has taught learning disabled and retarded people her entire career and I have taught some of them to play musical instruments. I don’t teach them the same way that I teach someone with greater learning abilities. I also realize that everyone I teach isn’t aspiring to be a concert pianist or Duane Allman so it’s important to help each student work hard but not take the fun out of it for them.

There are lots of memory tricks that I teach people that I didn’t even touch on because they are a little strange sounding.


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The guy asks a cab driver in New York, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?

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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
The guy asks a cab driver in New York, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?


I was going to use that too, Bob. Its certainly a good example of how the answer to the question is technically correct but of absolutely no benefit to the questioner.


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Originally Posted By: KeithS
If I were the judge, I’d bang down my gavel and say, “Overruled!”


His original thesis said he doesn't practice enough.

Defense rests.

Or would I be prosecution here?

"I eat way too much food and I am fat. Does anybody have any tips for me to lose weight?"

Well, um, I'll start with "stop eating way too much food". Then we move on to switch to a heavier fiber and less carbohydrate based diet routine. However, I am not going to move in with you and cook for you. Adults shouldn't need someone else to provide the discipline it takes to accomplish a goal. Agreed there?

Also involved is the ability to memorize, which is not necessarily "learning". We have all known that person who was a great test taker that was dumb as a pile of hammers. 3.0 had a Master's Degree and she had to be told to come in out of the rain lest she get wet.

Also why IQ tests means nothing. Someone with a photogenic or eidetic memory can score off the charts on an IQ test and not have any real world sense.

I prefer real world tests. Something like "Johnny has 6 ounces of weed. If he sells Joey 3 ounces, how much jail time will he do when he gets caught with the remaining amount?" grin

Last edited by eddie1261; 06/07/18 08:31 AM.

I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Sorry I bit on the capo debate. Just plain sorry. I hate asynchronous communication. Joe, go practice. Practice includes playing at least one song in front of people paying attention to you.

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Well on reading this thread a common theme running through it is, practice practice practice.

All well and good, but this leads on to the question, how much time really (especially at our age) does one want to practice and spend almost every free minute getting better at our hobby?

I certainly don't want to spend all that time, especially as I like reading online magazines and do other stuff.

I do practice a lot more now than I did years ago, for years, or almost decades I never touched the guitar at all, and I think when you get back to music at an older age, there may well may be a regret that one didn't practice a lot more when younger, so maybe a desire to make up for lost time.

I also think that to start gigging for the first time when in late 50's or 60's is a little sad, well change that to stressful, and I for one wouldn't want to do it.

So maybe a better idea would be to substitute the words, practice, practice, practice to Play and enjoy and have fun.

As regards forgetting the words and even chords for songs, think I might get a prize for that!

Last edited by musiclover; 06/07/18 10:34 AM.

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Originally Posted By: musiclover
All well and good, but this leads on to the question, how much time really (especially at our age) does one want to practice and spend almost every free minute getting better at our hobby?


That all boils down to how much the end result matters to each individual, and only they know the answer.

Using me as the example, at one time I thought I wanted to get into Ham radio. They I found out that the testing included fluency in Morse Code. I had no desire to spend the time learning Morse Code, so the idea of being a licenses Ham radio operator died right there.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
My problem was how to forget them. smile We played nearly the same set lists for way, way too long.


Ditto, J&B.

We had about 250 songs in our repertoire and we would shuffle the setlist each night (assuming the same venue). We knew our repertoire well enough to open it up to take requests from the audience. That can be thin ice if your band is not prepared for the challenge.

A pet peeve of mine is - musicians that are constantly tuning. Nothing shouts 'amateur' louder than that.

Back on topic: Joe, most songs only have 3-5 chords per key (wait to flame me, Eddie) so try to train your ear to tell you 'when' more than 'where' to change chords. You will begin to think of each key as those 3-5 chords rather than the thousands of possibilities available.

Hit the afterburner, Eddie!

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Good advice Donny. I'm going to give that a spin. I want to be book free by the end of this year, so that I can connect with my audience. Not that the dogs really care! I find the Jazz numbers in my set to be the hardest to remember because they're a bit more complex.


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Quote:
His original thesis said he doesn't practice enough.


Will the court clerk please read back Mr. Vidmar’s objection?

MR. VIDMAR: ASKED AND ANSWERED

Counselor, your argument in support of your objection is a Thesis, which is a statement, not a question. Your objection is to a question asked.

The Court’s ruling stands.

Of course the REAL answer to How do you memorize chords to lots of Covet songs is simple: Eddie don’t do no stinkin’ cover songs.

Quote:
"I eat way too much food and I am fat. Does anybody have any tips for me to lose weight?"

Well, um, I'll start with "stop eating way too much food". Then we move on to switch to a heavier fiber and less carbohydrate based diet routine. However, I am not going to move in with you and cook for you. Adults shouldn't need someone else to provide the discipline it takes to accomplish a goal. Agreed there?


This is probably a good teaching moment, because your weight loss example plays into exactly what I’m saying. You tell the patient his problem is that he eats too much food and if he eats in your manner he is going to lose weight. He comes back and asks for alternative strategies and you basically tell him that he doesn’t have the discipline and he’s asking you to provide it for him. Great bedside manner by the way.

People often times need strategies that they may not be familiar with to help them reach a desired goal. If he came to me and asked me for an alternative strategy, I’d have several, but I’ll share one as an example. I’d ask him if he knows that when Arnold Schwarzenegger was a professional body builder, that he consumed between 5,000 and 6,000 calories every day just to maintain his muscle mass. I’d explain to him that muscle size is one of the main determinants of your body’s metabolic rate and that by starting a program to build muscle mass and sticking to it, he would be burning lots of calories even he was sitting watching television. I’d ask if he would be willing to trade his lower calorie diet for one with higher calories but 3 hours of weight lifting and 3 hours of cardio every week. If he agrees, I hook him up with a personal trainer and he can give that a try. All I’ve provided him with is information and all I invested was the time to educate him about a different way to accomplish the same thing.


Quote:
3.0 had a Master's Degree and she had to be told to come in out of the rain lest she get wet.


Seems like that is a problem that should have shook out during Beta testing. According to previous reports, 1.0 and 2.0 also had serious flaws that slipped through Beta as well. Sounds like a QA issue.

Quote:
Also why IQ tests means nothing. Someone with a photogenic or eidetic memory can score off the charts on an IQ test and not have any real world sense.


An example of that kind of person is Sheldon Cooper. Folks that don’t watch the Big Bang Theory won’t get the reference and folks who don’t regularly read the forums wont understand the significance.




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Originally Posted By: KeithS
If he agrees, I hook him up with a personal trainer and he can give that a try.


After which he pays someone to visit the trainer FOR him....

Quote:
3.0 had a Master's Degree and she had to be told to come in out of the rain lest she get wet.


Enormous salaries tend to skew those test results. 3.0 was going to be my retirement plan. It soon became apparent that there isn't enough money in the world....

Quote:
Quoting me: Also why IQ tests means nothing. Someone with a photogenic or eidetic memory can score off the charts on an IQ test and not have any real world sense.


Quote:
Quoting Keith: An example of that kind of person is Sheldon Cooper. Folks that don’t watch the Big Bang Theory won’t get the reference and folks who don’t regularly read the forums wont understand the significance.


Quoting Sheldon in the DMV office: "How else are they going to learn?"

I make it a point to never tell people they are wrong. However, I am happy to spend as much time as necessary explaining why I am right.

Bedside manner is the least of my concerns. By a certain age, life should have seasoned people to a point where things don't need to be sugar coated. I will not acquiesce to the millennial mentality and contribute to the pussification of America. Heaven help this country when this generation of pansies comes into power. There will no longer be a militia to defend the country and the people we now call terrorists will have an open door to take over. And the response of the millennial power base will be to tweet about it and record the invasion on their cell phones for Facebook.

Back to topic: practice, practice, practice remains the correct answer.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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I think there is no substitute for experience but how do you get experience. In the mid 70s I played behind a guy that would simply stand on stage and people would call a song, away he would go. There was no telling what key or anything else, basically you just played and sort of hoped it worked. It usually did but there were two tricks one was to know the song (if not that particular song others of the same ilk) the other was when not to play (if you are really lost then shut up).

Another really great place to learn was in country music clubs (jazz clubs, folk clubs etc all work). Here you would be backing other folk who often had chord charts or whatever but rarely managed to have them correct or would be off singing a song in a different key or in some cases a different song to what was written. Timing could be anywhere from a complete stop start to singing in 3/4 to 4/4 song. Very quickly you learn to adapt, improvise and where chords should go.

These days someone may ask me for a song so I design it in BIAB. I pick a suitable style and enter the chords often taking less than 10 mins to get the basic song down but it is almost instinctive that I know what the next chord should be based on the previous chords and style of music. Sure I’m not always 100% correct but amazingly close most of the time.

My two bobs worth. It is practice, working with others and heaps of experience.

Tony

Last edited by Teunis; 06/08/18 01:24 PM.

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here's my $0.02

When I was quite young (15), I used to play with David Peel. We played in Washington Square Park a lot, and he would turn away from me because he was working the crowd. Since I knew Dave only knew six or seven chords, I soon learned how one chord led to another - known as resolutions.

There aren't an infinite number of these, and they all make sense once you understand them.

Two years later, I started doing "club dates" (here in NY, that's what we call weddings, bar/bat mitzvahs, coming out parties, quadrilles, etc.) I'd be thrown in the lion's cage with guys who played with the big bands of the 30's and 40's, expected to play any song from any period, with no sheet music. Often without even given a key. That's when it REALLY clicked in.

Sure, I screwed up - a lot. Came home from gigs embarrassed and disgusted. But I figured out which resolutions I had trouble with and got to recognize them. I still get caught out sometimes, especially now that I'm old and lazy(er), but the fact is some chords lead to a few possible other chords. By learning songs such as "On The Street Where You Live", "Cherokee", "Stella By Starlight", "Have You Met Miss Jones", and really analyzing how they go from one chord to another, you'll get it.

You'll be able to play anything, pretty much on the spot, within the first chorus or two. As long as you know how the song goes. You might also listen to anything by that lunatic Burt Bacharach (I mean that in the most respectful way) and Steely Dan (Aja album) once you get the hang of it, just to test yourself. Paul Simon's "Still Crazy After All These Years" is a great model of using every damn note you can in the melody and choosing chords accordingly.

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Originally Posted By: Teunis
I think there is no substitute for experience but how do you get experience. In the mid 70s I played behind a guy that would simply stand on stage and people would call a song, away he would go. <...snip...>

Tony

When I was a very young musician, there was a single act, an organist way out west in Ft Lauderdale in a bar that seemed to know anything (I think it was called The Hacienda Lounge). He would take requests from the audience, and I never saw him stumped. He was truly amazing. But I guess some people have a special talent for that, and take the time to develop it and make the most of it.

My brother-in-law is in the club-date business. He knows hundreds and hundreds of songs. He also has a talent for very melodic solos, even on difficult songs.

The club date people here do key signatures with fingers. Up is sharp, down is flat, and the number of fingers designate how many sharps or flats. A fist is either C or Am.

I've never done the club date thing, but used to be a regular in a Sunday Jazz Jam. I didn't know the heads of all the songs they played, but I was blessed with a good ear and could fake my way through a solo on almost anything they threw at me.

Here is another suggestion.

Take the music in small chunks. Memorize the first 8 bars, which is often pretty much the A section. Start with the music, then see how far you can play without the music. When you screw up, do it with the music again, then take a couple of minuted doing something else - without your musical instrument. Then try again

When you get the A section down, move on to the next. But be sure to play the A section every time you play the song (without the music). You will get the song 'under your fingers' this way.

See if that works for you.

Of course it will take time and practice, but it will be worth it.

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Which instrument are you intending on memorizing songs? Should have asked this awhile ago. On keys one of the exercises that will help you in live performance situations is to practice inversions as you move from chord to chord. Memorizing the feel of what this is like in all of the keys is an important skill, in my opinion. How to walk around on bass as you do this also helps to become smooth and seasoned. And you must mix in the practice of playing in front of others, if your intent is playing out; which you have posted about for the past several years as something you want to do.

The first time is nerve wracking and you probably won’t even remember most of it. Second time the same. After awhile,you’ll recall what happened and can adjust. But this outside force of performing in front of people needs to be part of your routine. You will never be fully ready for it so don’t wait.

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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton

When you get the A section down, move on to the next. But be sure to play the A section every time you play the song ...

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I agree with Bob on this important part.
This was the gist of my previous post.
It is important to re-inforce the memory as you move ahead, it helps tie it all together and also affects muscle memory, making it more natural over time (you don't think about it so much as just play it).

Keep repeating what you know so far, while adding the new stuff.
After working in 'sections', do the same as you move on to new songs.


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.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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And to REALLY factor in your proficiency on your instrument, practice blindfolded. Take away the crutches and you CAN'T walk with them.

When I was a younger man, I played a lot of basketball. I got to be okay as a strong side guard, shooting, setting picks and playing good defense. I wanted to be a point guard though. When I tried, all the defender had to do was take away my right hand and I was done. So one summer, I spent 2 hours twice a day playing in my backyard wearing a boxing glove on my right hand, forcing me to use only my left. That evolved into taping my right hand shut, but I spent that whole summer using only my left hand. I dribbled the ball off my shoes a lot, because that hand change also changed my footwork to the opposite side. Point being that I had to force myself out of my comfort zone. By fall, I could use either hand equally well.

But I will say in every post....

Practice. Practice. Practice.

If you want it bad enough, work hard to get there. There are no shortcuts that replace hard work and many repetitions.

When my keyboard rig expanded to where I had a keyboard set at 90 degree on my left hand, I found that I had to reach there without looking a lot to play a part. I just put a piece of roadie tape on the A above middle C and I cold feel where that tape was and know where to play. Again, that took a lot of practice. How bad do you want to accomplish this? That, and what you hope to accomplish, will determine how many hours you need to put into it. If you want to get just proficient enough to sit around the campfire and strum, you can do that far more easily than playing your local House Of Blues where people pay 30 bucks a ticket to see you.

Practice. Practice. Practice.

Last edited by eddie1261; 06/09/18 07:04 AM.

I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
When I was a very young musician, there was a single act, an organist way out west in Ft Lauderdale in a bar that seemed to know anything (I think it was called The Hacienda Lounge).


Notes, I will apologize in advance, but I HAD to do this joke.

When you were a very young musician, that bar must have been an underground speakeasy place right, since it was likely during Prohibition.

(Is there an icon for "duck and run"?)


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Nah, Florida wasn't even a state yet smile

Notes


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Here's my 2 cents on the original question and the recurring capo discussion:

1) If your goal is to be a master musician then follow the strictest advice offered by everybody

2) But, knowing what I know about Joe, I think his goal is to play music informally for the purpose of entertaining friends and maybe earn a buck now and then. That is a very different goal. I think Joe is looking for the shortest route to actualizing his personal goal (which is much lower than the goal of playing at Carnegie Hall)

I'm a lot like Joe, so I offer my own experience as one path to having fun as an entertainer in a world where you aren't a virtuoso.


When I played in bands, I was solely responsible for playing guitar. I could block out everything except the position of my fingers on the fretboard. If I needed barre chords, no problem. I knew where they were, and there was nothing to distract me from getting to the right fret. 100% of my attention was focused on playing guitar.

Later when I started booking solo gigs with backing tracks, it was a different ballgame, because I was suddenly responsible for everything... remembering chords, lyrics, solos, making changes to the mix on the fly etc. I discovered that multitasking meant that instead of having 100% of my attention on the guitar, I suddenly had 25% on the guitar, 25% on the lyrics, 25% on the mix with the rest being divided by distractions from the audience, trying to remember how to start the guitar solo etc. Every time my attention shifted for any reason, I'd start missing the target fret and then the song would crash & burn.

So I switched to a capo approach for a couple of reasons:

1) the changes are so familiar its easy to auto-pilot

2) I never had to worry about missing the target fret for barre chords

3) some of the covers I was playing were originally recorded with a capo, and the only way to duplicate the original sound is to use a capo.

4) I accidentally started to understand the value of the nashville system.

5) after switching to a system in which I always played 1st position chords, I no longer needed a chord sheet... which surprised me a little, because I had hundreds of active songs

Having said all this... while I was still trying to establish this act, I practiced a lot. I treated it like my job, waking up every morning , going to my music room and playing thru / working on the set list until my daughter came home from work at 5:30 pm. No matter which approach you take, a certain amount of practice is going to be necessary.

All the advice in this thread is potentially helpful. The real question is which advice you are most likely to follow up on. No advice is helpful if you don't follow it.

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Originally Posted By: Pat Marr
So I switched to a capo approach


As stupid as this is going to sound for someone who started playing guitar at age 11, I CAN'T use a capo. It makes me think WAY too much. Couple that with perfect pitch (That has receded back into near perfect pitch over time) and when my ear hears a chord, I go right to that fingering relative to the fret markers. Those fret markers are BURNED into my brain. If I know a song in C and the singer wants to do it in E flat, it would be easy enough to put a capo on the 3rd fret and play the same fingerings using the capo as the nut, right?

Nope. I suddenly start to think too much about fret markers and "Well, when I played this in C, the 6 minor was A minor, and that fingers here, so what do I do now when the 6 minor is suddenly C minor and the way I know to play C minor is to barre the 3rd fret but this metal clip on thingy is on that fret and in my way so what do I do", rather than be able to "think C" and finger it the same way, like an A minor, but viewing the capo as the nut. Believe me, I tried many times. If I have to think and not just play instinctively, it's really awful.

So with you being able to use a capo, you are a solid one up on me.


I smashed the hell out of my car today. When the cops came I told him "Officer, that guy was BOTH texting and drinking a beer." The cop said "Sir, he has every right to do that. I mean, it's HIS living room..."
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Quote:
As stupid as this is going to sound for someone who started playing guitar at age 11, I CAN'T use a capo.


Eddie, I think you are a very intelligent man, and therefore nothing you could possibly say sounds stupid to me. I think you very accurately pointed out that we're all different people with different learning styles and aptitudes.

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I am with you Eddie I have tried capos and failed I would much rather Barr the chord and play that way. I used to find putting a capo on would often knock the guitar out of tune (maybe in my mind) unless you really took your time. Also a big chunk of metal as the nut got in the way. I had some light capos I think there is one in my guitar case but I never use them.

Others however are very successful with them.

Tony


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I rarely use a capo but when I do I capo responsibly whistle

No really I rarely use a capo. I only use it when I am doing an old country or folk song that need to have the open chord ringing sound that I can't get with barre chords. Roughly I would guess that is about 1% of my guitar playing.

Last edited by MarioD; 06/10/18 12:49 PM.

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If you think capos are only for wimps;

https://youtu.be/pS0cEWwWnGQ

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Originally Posted By: Don Gaynor
If you think capos are only for wimps;

https://youtu.be/pS0cEWwWnGQ



Hi Don, I would never suggest capos are for wimps but as Tommy points out capos can knock a guitar out of tune. Usually when doing live shows to be standing on stage playing around putting a capo on, then making sure tuning is fine seems to be a distraction to me. I prefer not to unless I am really forced to which I find is very rarely.

Playing an Eb (or any chord up the neck with the C shaped chord) is not an issue for me. Using 2 fingers to play an A shape anywhere on the neck is the same and this method also leaves 2 fingers for playing fills etc. Rarely do I find myself with the need to be hitting all 6 strings, I don’t often need use all 4 fingers to play chords.

Tony


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I'm like Eddie, the capo would drive me crazy (and unlike Eddie, I don't have absolute pitch).

I actually prefer moveable chords. I learned barre chords before open chords, and having the same shape move up and down the neck is a lot easier for me personally to remember. Plus the songs I play on the guitar lend themselves to non-open string chords where I can regulate the exact amount of staccato or legato or even variables of dampening by changing the pressure of my left hand.

Because of that, I'm not even really very proficient in open string chords. I have higher priorities to learn first.

But then, guitar is my 7th instrument and it will take a looooong time before I get as proficient at the guitar as I am on the sax and wind synthesizer.

And all of our brains are organized differently.

Once I have a song memorized, the chords and the words tend to reinforce each other. My hand knows where to go when I sing certain words. In addition, once the song is memorized, the words are more articulations than actual words. I don't have to think about what the words mean anymore, but thanks to hours of practice, I know when, where and how I want to add the emotional content.

It's a little like acting. I took an acting course for fun (one of my friends taught it). It was easier to remember the lines once it was blocked out on the stage. It seemed the placement and movement of the body reinforced the words and vice versa. Just like the chords and words do for me on the guitar.

But what I really like most is singing a line and playing the answer line on the guitar rather than playing rhythm. I guess I owe a debt to T-Bone Walker laugh

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