Most folks would benefit from using a reference track to guide their own mix. For the uninitiated, a reference track is an existing (pro) song that you use as a comparison to your own mix. Begin by selecting a song with a similar sound to what you intend to create. Try to find something as close to the tempo (bpm) of what you are mixing as possible. Rip a copy from a favorite CD or download a copy from iTunes or Amazon (or wherever). Add that as a track in your mix.
Needless to say, keep the reference track MUTED as you mix your tracks. On a regular basis, SOLO the reference track. And see how your mix compares. Do small segments. Your DAW should allow you to SOLO the reference track then unsolo to a MUTED state to give a back-and-forth, so you are listen to either your mix or the reference track.
When you are listening to the chorus of your song, shift your reference track so the chorus of it lines up with yours.
Things to pay attention to...
Your Vocal. Does it fit in your mix the way the vocal in the pro song does? If you have never done this, you will likely be surprised at how "dull" the pro vocal sounds compared to what you are doing with your own. Most hobbyist have a tendency to make their vocal too bright - and a bit harsh because of it - because they are focusing on only the vocal and trying to get it "above the mix"...and jacking up the high EQ is the only thing they can think to do. Most people would benefit from rolling off the really high end and finding other ways to get the vocal in the right place. A bit more compression? of an EQ bump at 1k? A duplicated track with no effects? Generally there should be a "warmth" to a vocal, but not be "muddy". It is a balancing act - and the reason there are so many videos about vocal processing.
Drums. Does your drum levels match your reference track? (Most people mix their drums too low). Generally, drums should be at a volume level similar to the vocal.
Piano. Like drums, most people mix their pianos too low. And typically, they are not bright enough. The BIAB pianos seem to be EQ'd well for a solo piano/vocal mix, but are too "dark" or "heavy" for a big mix, so your mix will get a little "muddy in the middle". Try dropping out the EQ in the low end and adding a shelf on the high side starting around 2k - then bump that up 3-6 dB... And make it loud enough to easily hear it. The piano is a percussive instrument (meaning, like a drum, you "hit" it). If you want pads, use an electric piano or strings or a synth...don't mix your acoustic piano like a pad...
Acoustic guitars. A lot of people make acoustic guitars too loud in a full mix. They should be "subtle", often "just there" or even "subliminal". Depends on the song, of course, but many people don't pay attention to when they should be more "under the mix". This likely comes from the fact that acoustic guitar is what they play and what they write with and are accustomed to hearing it all the time.
Harmonies. Do they sit right for the style of song? Some should be really blended in the background - similar to pads. Some should be like a duet. Check it against the harmonies in your reference track.
Bass. Listen to your reference track concentrating on hearing the bass. Can you hear yours the same way? That is typically another balancing act between volume and the right EQ. If you turn your bass up and it makes your mix muddy (heavy bottom) look at your EQ to fix that.
The Chorus. Does your chorus have the impact that the pro chorus does? If not, think about why. The likely answer is that you do not have enough "helping instruments" to accomplish that sound.
Most hobbyist have a tendency to make their vocal too bright - and a bit harsh because of it - because they are focusing on only the vocal and trying to get it "above the mix"...and jacking up the high EQ is the only thing they can think to do.
Guilty as charged!
Each time I start on a mix, I intend to use a reference. Then I get deep into the mix, figure it's "good enough", get tired of tweaking it, and send it out the door.
Then I listen to the mix some time later and wonder "That the hell was I thinking!", and promise myself that next time I'll use a reference.
Great info. And it’s reflected in your mixes. Your suggestions regarding the gain on pianos and drums alone has been a game changer for us.
I’m fairly consistent on using a reference when mastering—often letting Ozone match my reference and then tweaking. But I’m a slackard when it comes to mixing with a reference. Thanks for the kick in the butt
I learned the hard way to start with bass, drums and vocals and gradually bring other stuff in around them as ornaments.
That's the way most producing is done, when you listen to some music, you hear a good strong sound on the vocals bass and drums, and not a lot of anything else and its a big hit.
The beat counts.
Last edited by beatmaster; 06/23/1801:12 PM.
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I was shocked when I recently re-listened to Carolina in My Mind by James Taylor and realized it is mostly bass and drums and very faint guitar.
In my memory it was all guitar.
Guess my memory was off!
Not necessarily. If the last time you listened to the song it was on a compact diskette, you're not listening to the original mix but to a mix remixed and remastered for distribution on a cd. Also, much depends on when it was transferred to cd. Many reissue cds from 1985 to 2000 the mix and mastering engineers did not have a good grasp of the medium and how to best use the medium. In many cases they did not even have the original master tapes as source material.
I was using exactly what you are talking about to mix an acoustic song using Carolina in my Mind as a reference.
I was surprised to hear how faint the guitar was as opposed to my memory.
And how loud and well mixed the bass and drums were: to your points.
So my response was to validate what you said.
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
Mixing: Using a Reference Track
Most folks would benefit from using a reference track to guide their own mix. For the uninitiated, a reference track is an existing (pro) song that you use as a comparison to your own mix. Begin by selecting a song with a similar sound to what you intend to create. Try to find something as close to the tempo (bpm) of what you are mixing as possible. Rip a copy from a favorite CD or download a copy from iTunes or Amazon (or wherever). Add that as a track in your mix.
Needless to say, keep the reference track MUTED as you mix your tracks. On a regular basis, SOLO the reference track. And see how your mix compares. Do small segments. Your DAW should allow you to SOLO the reference track then unsolo to a MUTED state to give a back-and-forth, so you are listen to either your mix or the reference track.
When you are listening to the chorus of your song, shift your reference track so the chorus of it lines up with yours.
Things to pay attention to...
Your Vocal. Does it fit in your mix the way the vocal in the pro song does? If you have never done this, you will likely be surprised at how "dull" the pro vocal sounds compared to what you are doing with your own. Most hobbyist have a tendency to make their vocal too bright - and a bit harsh because of it - because they are focusing on only the vocal and trying to get it "above the mix"...and jacking up the high EQ is the only thing they can think to do. Most people would benefit from rolling off the really high end and finding other ways to get the vocal in the right place. A bit more compression? of an EQ bump at 1k? A duplicated track with no effects? Generally there should be a "warmth" to a vocal, but not be "muddy". It is a balancing act - and the reason there are so many videos about vocal processing.
Drums. Does your drum levels match your reference track? (Most people mix their drums too low). Generally, drums should be at a volume level similar to the vocal.
Piano. Like drums, most people mix their pianos too low. And typically, they are not bright enough. The BIAB pianos seem to be EQ'd well for a solo piano/vocal mix, but are too "dark" or "heavy" for a big mix, so your mix will get a little "muddy in the middle". Try dropping out the EQ in the low end and adding a shelf on the high side starting around 2k - then bump that up 3-6 dB... And make it loud enough to easily hear it. The piano is a percussive instrument (meaning, like a drum, you "hit" it). If you want pads, use an electric piano or strings or a synth...don't mix your acoustic piano like a pad...
Acoustic guitars. A lot of people make acoustic guitars too loud in a full mix. They should be "subtle", often "just there" or even "subliminal". Depends on the song, of course, but many people don't pay attention to when they should be more "under the mix". This likely comes from the fact that acoustic guitar is what they play and what they write with and are accustomed to hearing it all the time.
Harmonies. Do they sit right for the style of song? Some should be really blended in the background - similar to pads. Some should be like a duet. Check it against the harmonies in your reference track.
Bass. Listen to your reference track concentrating on hearing the bass. Can you hear yours the same way? That is typically another balancing act between volume and the right EQ. If you turn your bass up and it makes your mix muddy (heavy bottom) look at your EQ to fix that.
The Chorus. Does your chorus have the impact that the pro chorus does? If not, think about why. The likely answer is that you do not have enough "helping instruments" to accomplish that sound.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
I was using exactly what you are talking about to mix an acoustic song using Carolina in my Mind as a reference.
I was surprised to hear how faint the guitar was as opposed to my memory.
And how loud and well mixed the bass and drums were: to your points.
So my response was to validate what you said.
Indeed.
Responses to your observation looked as though they might take off in another direction (as things have a tendency to do around here...) I just wanted to make sure we stayed on the USING A REFERNCE TRACK track.
Yes using a suitable reference track can be very useful. I just wanted to add that most commercial reference tracks will be very loud having been mastered to make the most impact. It is very important that when you make your comparisons between your own mix and the sound of the reference track to make sure they are at similar sound volumes. In other words turn down the reference track to the level of your mix. The human ear tends to favour a loud mix and think it sounds better when it is just louder.
And what are all these people doing saying they can write like Adele and then won't tell me what midi channel to put my pan flute on because I think Led Zeppelin is the greatest band that ever was and nobody else deserves to live and PG Music better get its act together soon I tell ya.
NOW--we are on track!!!
Where do I find the delete button....wait..hold on....
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
To use a reference track properly, one must of course, understand the principles behind the mixing. Proper use of reverb, compression, EQ, etc.... for example, what happens in the sonic landscape to a solo track when you change the shelving on the EQ of a vocal or guitar and how that reacts in the bigger picture of the total mix.
One must also know what they are listening for, notice when something is being done, know and understand exactly what that something is, and understand and know how that particular sound is achieved. ( ex: what specific knobs to turn, what levels to change, why, and by how much)
In other words, it's not as easy as A/B the track with your mix. One must learn to listen.... and this is a topic that could really go off on lots of rabbit trails because speakers, rooms, headphones, and so many other factors play into that single topic of listening.
You can't fix what you don't hear.... no matter what the cause.
In all fairness though, you did provide some good information on each of the points you discussed.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 06/28/1802:56 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
One other thing, obvious to some, but maybe not to others. When using a reference track, it's important to make sure to not have the effects on your song affect the reference. Otherwise it is futile. So if you import the reference track to your project, make sure that track is not altered by the main out effects. You want that one to sound as original sounding as possible.
Like I said, pretty obvious, but something to check. I've been caught by things like this that appeared obvious afterwards. Doubt I'm alone here.
Last edited by rharv; 06/28/1801:27 PM.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
I'm going to start doing this more often with the whole mix. When mixing my own voice/vocal I often use a reference vocalist. Is that too far off topic? It's usually Alan Jackson or Ronnie Dunn for my lower and mid registers and Phil Vassar for my higher register. I'm not saying I sound like either of them but I try to eq and compress my voice to be similar because I sing a lot of country now. I simply bounce back and forth between various songs of theirs on youtube and my own track. I don't think it comes out like theirs in the end but I think it helps me to not sound too cold or thin. I also try to imitate what "I imagine" they are doing during recording as far as mic technique and expression, controlling siblance, pops, breath, distance, movement and things like that.
prolly common sense but you would want to bring in your ref track in a lossless format such as WAV and not a ripped MP3, right?
A high quality mp3 (320 - or even 256) should work - but use whatever you've got - the better quality...the better - obviously (but not necessarily necessary) (I seem to be double-wording a lot in this thread).
The point to a Reference Track is more about getting things to sit right in a mix - the vocal in particular...without being cold and harsh - but also all the instrument. I've pointed out drums, bass, piano, acoustic guitars because many people put one or more of those "in the wrong place". An 256 mp3 can give you the reference one might need...
I'm going to start doing this more often with the whole mix. When mixing my own voice/vocal I often use a reference vocalist. Is that too far off topic? It's usually Alan Jackson or Ronnie Dunn for my lower and mid registers and Phil Vassar for my higher register. I'm not saying I sound like either of them but I try to eq and compress my voice to be similar because I sing a lot of country now. I simply bounce back and forth between various songs of theirs on youtube and my own track. I don't think it comes out like theirs in the end but I think it helps me to not sound too cold or thin. I also try to imitate what "I imagine" they are doing during recording as far as mic technique and expression, controlling siblance, pops, breath, distance, movement and things like that.
This is perfectly "on topic"
I love your list of vocal references! All excellent choices. (Phil was friends with a friend of mine - saw him at the Bluebird a couple of times. A really nice guy.)
Tobias, not only do I think it's on topic, I also feel it could be taken a step further.
FJ has posted some vocal only video/audios of the actual recordings. There are MANY of these. It might be really useful to use those as additional reference track.
BTW, they have them for many instruments as well.
Great thread.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I have a tool in IK Multimedia called "MasterMatch" that will analyze a reference and then give you a starting point for comparison before you begin to "turn the knobs" so to speak.
I have found (and this may tie back to what Jim said earlier about CDs though) that in some cases I am not all that fond of the reference track though I remember liking it at some point in the past.
Has anyone ever had the experience of listening to a reference track and saying "I can do better than that"?
Maybe WAY off topic, I don't know.
Here is an example, from Glen Campbell's last album, the title track Ghost on the Canvas. I loved the song, but it was mixed WAY too hot for my personal tastes--and over-compressed.
I guess what I am saying is the more you study and investigate the more you learn all around.
I thought David Cuny's last post was a study in a great mix. Man you could hear EVERYTHING on that one.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
The point I am trying to make is that SOMETIMES I have gone to grab a reference track I THOUGHT would be perfect then learned something about what I didn't want to do.
Funny how learning works when you keep your minds and ears open to unexpected observations and ideas, huh?
Enjoy those pitted olives, remember D minor is the saddest of all keys and say a prayer for Stumpy Joe boys.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
David Snyder quote I was shocked when I recently re-listened to Carolina in My Mind by James Taylor and realized it is mostly bass and drums and very faint guitar.
In my memory it was all guitar.
Guess my memory was off!
That's the way good song writing/producing/lyrics/vocals all mixed in to one stereo track should do to all who listen.
I found out that fact by listening ..Instead of commenting.
Last edited by beatmaster; 06/29/1801:00 PM.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
Yeah this will be my last one and then I will shut up because I know I am off topic, but it is funny that we sit around sometimes talking about very delicate changes on dials when Jimmy Page was stuffing a mic into a tin can and then putting the tin can and the amp into a box and running the whole thing to a speaker in a nearby bathroom while being totally toasted the entire time.
And we go "is there a free VST plug-in for that?"
Should I do a low shelf on my Waves compressor??
Ha ha ha.
Oh, well. Back to the factory!!!!! Over and out!
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
There is no correct way or we would never have the historical path that is music today.
Now what song was it the drummer used the fridge instead of drums.
A cardboard box instead of drums.
Granted; for some creative mixes there may not be an example. As a polar example to your cardboard box drums there's Tropea's Muff, with Rick Marotta in left channel and Steve Gadd in right. It's a pretty All-Star band for the day. If it works it works! For the first 50 seconds you'd think this was 1 drummer (with some panning effects) .. but around :45 you can hear them start to play off each other and vary. If I remember you are a drummer and thought you may enjoy this.
They have identical time for most of this performance and play together very well, at least in my opinion.
And to keep this even farther off the topic; here's Ramblin' On deconstructed. My opinion; each track sounds pretty bad on it's own. Put together it's an orchestra.
Back in the day when I worked at General Motors, we periodically used a consultant (Dave Clark - not of the '5' fame, but the somewhat famous audio engineer) who had a great list of tracks for audio system subjective and objective evaluations.
As it turns out, it was also a great list of reference tracks.
The closest thing I can find is Bob Katz' list of dynamically well-mixed and mastered songs. I like some of these songs, so I have made it a point to obtain several on CD.
There's quite a wide variety of music styles in the honor roll that Bob lists.
Reference tracks also work well for the other side of mixing which is arranging. Taking the time to list out the likely tracks, their processing, when and where they appear in the mix and overall song, is also instructive. This takes some patience to audibly deconstruct a mix and arrangement but always worthwhile.
Someone way back in the thread mentioned Led Zeppelin. I was listening to my 2-CD compliation I have of theirs this past week on some really nice in-ear monitors, and it's funny how many times you can hear a squeak coming out of Bonzo's kick drum pedal. LZ has always been about the feel, however - not so much the sound quality.
The most obvious what volume the different instruments should be. I've found that I always overestimate the volume of vocals, and place them too far in the front.
On the other hand, drums are often quite louder that I expect them to be.
But you should match for frequency as well. That means deciding which instruments live in which frequency. There are various tools to help with spectral matching, such as the Reaper's free Spectrum Matcher. While it's not a good idea to simply apply spectral curves, it can be quite instructive!
Once you've decided who gets to live where in the frequency range, the simplest thing to do is high/low pass those instruments outside of that range. It's amazing how much you can remove from an instrument that's never noticed in a full mix.
Finally, reference tracks can tell you how many instruments to use. It's a lot easier to balance a song with fewer instruments, and floyd jane's latest reminded me to put less in, and make more from what I had.
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