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Hi All
Lately I have become fascinated in learning about the human condition and the psychology of success and have been reading some books about this. What is it that makes one person "succeed" in life and music while others do not. (Of course I know the definition of "success" is highly subjective but I will leave that discussion for another day).
There seems to be two distinct schools of thought. The first is from Anthony Robbins which is basically decide what you want and then go after it hell for leather (or "take massive action" in his words). The other that is floating around is "Let Go and Let God" which seems to be on a lot of social media and seems to be propagated by people like Elizabeth Gilbert and Carolyn Myss. (It can be applied whether you are religious or not).
I listen to a lot of Desert Island Discs, which by definition, interviews "successful" people and there seems to be a mixture of both attitudes.
I would love to know what your view is and if it has/is working for you and for others.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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Joanne, In addition to chasing success, some people have the ability to be more persuasive than others. I'd imagine that this is a factor that can't be overlooked. I also imagine that this explains why many artists get managers to do the 'heavy lifting'. In your reading journey, I encourage you to get a hold of Robert B Cialdini's, "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion". I found it quite an eye-opening read. It helped me heaps being a teacher. https://books.google.com/books/about/Influence.html?id=5dfv0HJ1TEoC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false Regards, Noel
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Thanks so much Noel. I was delighted to find the book on Audible and will listen to it. I will let you know what I think. Persuasion is definitely something I never think of but probably should.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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Without reading books on the subject I believe there is a lot in ones own approach. If you aim at the bottom rung on a ladder you will almost assuredly achieve it. If that was your aim then you are indeed successful (but not in the eyes of others ). If on the other hand you aim for the top and not reach the top run you may feel you have missed success but that may not be the way others see it.
You can be extremely talented but aspire to mediocrity or you can have less talent really work at something and achieve a level of excellence. I think it is largely a state of mind and willingness to work. Self belief also helps.
I once did a few shows with a guy who was known as one of Australia’s leading show biz talents. What amazed me was before he set foot on stage he spent the best part of an hour in front of a mirror going over everything he was to do, including facial expressions. When I quizzed him he simply said “l have to do the practice to be as good as I can. Some guys feel they can just walk out and do it” he said but not him. This chap really worked at being good.
My thoughts Tony
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First of all, know the right people or better yet be related to them. That's the surest path.
Next is luck. Luck has a lot to do with the opportunities we find or find us. You could be in the right place at the right or wrong time, you could choose the right manager or not, you could meet the right person, and so on.
Other than that, a combination of both approaches seems logical.
I hear auto-tune kings and queens that can't sing their way out of a paper bag, so talent alone doesn't do it.
I've known talented people who spend every waking hour and every spare dollar chasing that dream and never found it.
In my own case, we had a manager who did the work for us while we worked on the performance side of it. We were the opening act for groups like The Four Seasons, Association (back when they were #1 on billboard), and eventually various Motown acts.
Motown offered us a recording contract, but when our manager and the lawyers he hired tried to upgrade from the terrible contract Motown was offering to a bad contract, they quit talking to us and and chose their second pick. Because Motown wanted to own the band name, the second pick band (Sunliners) became Rare Earth.
We probably would have taken the terrible contract, we'd have to sell at least a million copies of our first LP to pay back Motown for inflated recording, distribution, and promotion costs -- all paid for out of our royalties. Motown wanted publishing rights, partial songwriting rights, and a hefty percentage of our gigs as 'agent fees'. We probably would have ended up broke and owing Motown money.
Well, at least I'm not a has-been, instead I'm an almost-was.
I consider myself successful anyway. For the majority of my life I've made a living doing music and nothing but music. I wasted a few years with day-jobs while trying to be normal, still gigging on the weekends, but that didn't work for me.
I own my house, the only debt I have is car payments, I've vacationed from Alaska to Central America, England to China, and even northern Africa. Australia is next. I'm in a duo with my wife/soul-mate/best-friend and we enjoy each and every gig and each and every non-gig day together.
I LOVE my life, that's success even if I didn't get to become Rare Earth.
Back on topic.
Some people are happy aiming for the bottom rung, others striving for stardom, success is hard to define.
The way I figure it is that if on your death bed you look back and thin, "What a nice ride" you were successful.
Back in the 1980s I met the sax star, Tom Scott. He was leading the band for the Steve and Eydie show, staying at the Hyatt of the Palm Beaches where we were the house band for 3 months and we got to talking.
Tom said that he knew that there was a sax player probably gigging in a Holiday Inn somewhere like Valparaiso Indiana who could put me [Tom] in his back pocket, but I was in the right place at the right time, I had the right connections, I showed up straight, and could do the job.
I have a lot of respect for Tom, he is a fine sax player and doesn't have a big head. He had the luck, talent, timing, and connections.
Would I have been more successful if we signed that terrible contract with Motown? All the pressure, acting like an employee, and so on? Since I had the luck to be the opening act for many bands, I've talked to many who said they were happier before they 'made it'. Others love their new life. Was Elvis Presley successful? The pressures drove him to drugs and an early death.
If we signed that terrible contract I wouldn't have met Leilani, and we've been in wedded bliss for 40 years and counting.
So your question begs, what is success?
The best answer I can come up with is, "It depends."
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I don’t think we can discount the intelligence factor. While assuredly not a guarantee the ability to think abstractly certainly is an asset. FWIW, my background is in psychology and from my observations over a 40 year career I think some folks are simply hard wired to take risks. And that can manifest in bungee jumping, et al and/or ventures that lead to “success” in life or a total disaster.... Bud
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I sometimes refer to this little poem when I think about success.
HEADS OR TAILS
God gave us two ends
With a connecting link
One end is to sit on
The other end is to think
Success depends on which end you use
Heads: you win
Tails: you lose.
My interpretation is, you're a success if you think about something and then do it. If you just sit on it, you'll never get anywhere.
My 2 cents (CDN).
LLOYD S
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Yeah, I think you gotta work it. And work it a lot. Especially if you're talking about the music business. No one is going to discover you. And, in reality, I suspect the whole concept of being discovered is a bit of a myth! Or, at least it is misunderstood.
The general public only becomes aware of someone once they are HUGE and it often looks like an "overnight success" but the truth is they were working their butts off forever and they ended up in the right place at the right time to be able to leverage their experience with an opportunity.
The Beatles had a great manager and plenty of practice so when the opportunity arose they were poised to jump on it. And when they rocketed to stardom they were still doing a mix of covers and simple originals; it would be some time before they created what I consider to be their masterpieces! I would even argue that, without their early success, they may never have had the time, money, inspiration, etc. to create Sgt. Pepper's, Abbey Road, etc.
But getting back on point, yes, you have to work your butt off continuously and network constantly online and offline. My advice for anyone seriously pursuing music as a career would be to physically move close to where music is still being bought and sold like Nashville. Meet everyone you can. Be at the Bluebird (and other establishments) every night. Get a day job in the business. Write a music blog. Interview stars and rising stars. Write constantly. Try and get one of those stars to sing your song. Befriend producers and engineers and studio musicians and staff at music companies. Go all in.
And be prepared to fail.
A career in music is one of the harder ones to successfully pursue. And if you are wanting to get paid as a performer that market is small while the competition is fierce! And if you have dreams of making it to the Grand Ol Opry stage that would be an even smaller group. And, if you dare to dream of becoming rich, well, there are only a few who achieve that.
On the other hand, most law school grads become lawyers and a majority of vocational school (HVAC, automotive, etc.) grads are employed in their fields too. I remember long ago when I was choosing a major in college, there were lots of tools available to help us pick something that was likely to result in actual employment! We knew certain majors, while intellectually or artistically satisfying, would not help us achieve our desired employment outcome. So we made our choices and our compromises based on knowledge and reasonable expectations.
Now, back to music and considering what are reasonable expectations...If you're fresh out of high school with no college plans/prospects and you have a beautiful face, a great voice, a bunch of excellent material and some sort of angle/hook/gimmick, I'd say pack up and head to Nashville and take a chance (aka work your butt off) for 4 or 5 years.
For anyone else I'd recommend keeping that day job and do music as a hobby. And maybe pray.
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In addition to all that has been said (hard work,luck, intelligence etc) you have to either love or like what you are doing.
I love playing guitar but I also liked my job. I stayed with my job because it paid well, I had a steady income, I could, with studying and hard work, and did rise to be a leader in my field. I still loved playing in my wedding band so I had the best of both worlds.
PS - my musician friends said that I sold out but I laughed at them all the way to the bank.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Read Outliers by Malcom Gladwell. My summary: unique opportunities + lots of practice + luck + talent = success in general terms as it pertains to the famously successful.
I read books from famous musicians and producers and they almost always have these elements. Read Questlove’s autobiography, Herbie Hancock’s autobiography, Bruce Swedien’s Autobiography, Andy Summers’ autobiography, and Peter Hook’s autobiographical account of how Joy Division came to be.
Gladwell’s Outlier’s maps on to each of these stories.
Also, every single issue of TapeOp interviews famous and not so famous engineers and producers and each of their stories maps pretty well to this. So does the big 3-4 hour long documentary on Tom Petty. So does “Made by George Martin”.
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Read Outliers by Malcom Gladwell. My summary: unique opportunities + lots of practice + luck + talent = success in general terms as it pertains to the famously successful.
I read books from famous musicians and producers and they almost always have these elements. Read Questlove’s autobiography, Herbie Hancock’s autobiography, Bruce Swedien’s Autobiography, Andy Summers’ autobiography, and Peter Hook’s autobiographical account of how Joy Division came to be.
Gladwell’s Outlier’s maps on to each of these stories.
Also, every single issue of TapeOp interviews famous and not so famous engineers and producers and each of their stories maps pretty well to this. So does the big 3-4 hour long documentary on Tom Petty. So does “Made by George Martin”.
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There are some really fascinating and valid points here. It kind of reminded me of the whole saying, "a watched pot never boils". Made me think of what people had been saying here.
Cheers,
Ember
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The first is from Anthony Robbins which is basically decide what you want and then go after it hell for leather (or "take massive action" in his words).
That's part of his formula. It's actually... -you need to decide and get VERY clear on what you want -take massive action toward it -notice if it is working or not -adjust accordingly to get closer to your goal -repeat In my opinion, most people are not clear on what they really want and/or never take massive action to get it. Of the few who do, then typically don't apply the rest of the formula. He even addresses this... "“Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy.” -Tony Robbins He also says the way to speed up the process is to use role models. In my opinion, many amateur song writers don't apply much of that at all. Here is the thing though, they may be fine with that. They may be doing EXACTLY what they want to be doing. So...all good by me. Personally, I'm really happy to see people enjoy their accomplishments. I just find it hard to watch people, who want to improve, take the same actions over and over and can't figure out why they don't. If you do nothing different; expect the same results. (We all know the definition of insanity) Hopefully helpful.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 07/30/18 04:49 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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First of all, know the right people or better yet be related to them. That's the surest path.
Next is luck. Luck has a lot to do with the opportunities we find or find us. You could be in the right place at the right or wrong time, you could choose the right manager or not, you could meet the right person, and so on.
Notes, I'm a big fan of yours and think you are a pretty amazing person all the way around. I hope you don't mind me adding to your point. Aside from being related; I think we both can do A LOT to "know the right people" and create our own luck. Of course, not completely; but I see too many people who blame bad luck or not knowing the right people. Many times they have not put in sufficient effort. Also known as "paying your dues." Just my take.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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If you read a lot and study a lot you will find that success in any field has many common principles in common and a similar hierarchy. Music has a wide foundation of very poor musicians/singers (poor) a very large body of competent, highly competent but security minded musicians/singers who have what it takes to be a huge success, many have some success and get opportunities but don't take the risk and keep their day job (middle class) and a very small percentage achieve super stardom. The super rich and famous are not necessarily the smartest or the best. They are simply super successful. (the upper class). Employment has a similar hierarchy. Learn the principles, apply them and you can be successful in any field.
Most of the 1% in money that are self made have been completely broke. The 1% control 96% of the money. There are only 3 ways to earn money and one way to inherit it. Only one way to earn money is a pathway to super wealth because it is the only way to change the time/money ratio. One must either be an employee, earning a salary; a higher paid management employee or self employed; A big business or finally an investor in many different business streams of income.
96% of the US population work for a salary exchanging time for money. To earn more money they have to spend more time, like taking a second job but in the end there is only so much time. They can spend even more time getting more education or learning a new skill but again, in the end there is only so much time and therefore, only so much money they can earn. Inherited money is completely dependent on someone else's work. Whatever the inheritance is will be what it is...
3% of the population Invest money for money. Wholesale/retail, stocks, bonds, etc...
1% Invest money to earn money passively. MSI's = multi-stream incomes. Blogging, Internet sales, monetizing YouTube videos, write books, etc
There are more books, videos, courses and other avenues teaching the principles of money than there are the same to learn the principles of super success in music. Learn the principles of money, apply them to music and even if you fail, you could end up rich.
To learn principles, I recommend Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki and Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Neither are road maps, techniques or steps to get rich quick. Both teach the principles and the mindset how to think about money.
So to me, success in music is creating a one time event (original Record/CD), repeating that multiple times, do a one time set up to market the CD's in multiple venues and outlets, build a brand off my music productions to create multiple passive incomes that generate money into my bank account for the remainder of my life...
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The first is from Anthony Robbins which is basically decide what you want and then go after it hell for leather (or "take massive action" in his words).
That's part of his formula. It's actually... -you need to decide and get VERY clear on what you want -take massive action toward it -notice if it is working or not -adjust accordingly to get closer to your goal -repeat In my opinion, most people are not clear on what they really want and/or never take massive action to get it. Of the few who do, then typically don't apply the rest of the formula. He even addresses this... "“Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy.” -Tony Robbins He also says the way to speed up the process is to use role models. In my opinion, many amateur song writers don't apply much of that at all. Here is the thing though, they may be fine with that. They may be doing EXACTLY what they want to be doing. So...all good by me. Personally, I'm really happy to see people enjoy their accomplishments. I just find it hard to watch people, who want to improve, take the same actions over and over and can't figure out why they don't. If you do nothing different; expect the same results. (We all know the definition of insanity) Hopefully helpful. I have more than a little disdain for Tony Robbins. If he was honest he would tell people the way to become rich & successful is to launch a business like his where you claim to be able to teach people how to become rich & successful! With that said I have read his books and he does have some good advice. I particularly like "Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy." But the implication one is left with is "dang, he's right, I've been running east when I should have been running west...that's my solution"! But it is ALWAYS far more complicated than that. Guys like Robbins are not in the business of reality. They'll stand on stage and rally 10,000 people, get them to do exciting (but essentially useless) things like firewalking, and then send them back to their regular lives...temporarily motivated and a few hundred bucks poorer. Guys like Robbins would never admit to their audience of 10,000 that there are only 10 slots available for whatever it is that is being promoted at that event. Nope, he will stand up there and try to convince everyone that they all have a shot if they'll just run west instead of east. I understand why he does it. And, as I said, he has some great advice. But I find the entire process of getting rich by convincing people they are gonna get rich, when 99.9% of them will not, to be damn near evil! Whoa, I got off on a "Tony Robbins is evil" rant! Well, your points are all good. And there is a lot to be said for showing up and giving it your best shot. And working really hard. And all that. But damn, I hate to see someone without hands paying good money for guitar lessons!
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There are so many wonderful responses to this question. Thank you to each of you for taking the time to respond. It certainly is an interesting topic.
There are two "themes" I would like to pick up on and comment on and maybe return to some of the others at a later stage.
The first is the concept of "luck". In my mind saying I was or am lucky would equate to non-religious "let go let god" whereas the "you make your own luck" is more like the "take massive action". (I think it Willie Nelson who said it took him 30 years to become an overnight success). I think we are certainly "lucky" with what we are born with. ie what our intellect is like, what family we are born into and whether we have healthy genes or not but then after that maybe we make our own luck by getting off our butts and being in the right place at the right time with the right experience to be able to take advantage of an opportunity.
The second thing I would like to comment on is this concept of "if you are running east to look for a sunset then you have the wrong strategy". This seems very simplistic because how many of us KNOW for sure that we are running east or that the sunset is in the west? I am busy reading Walt Disney's biography and I think on most levels we would consider him a "success" BUT he certainly looked like he was running east looking for a sunset... most normal people would have given up years ago.
I am starting to wonder if any of these "gurus" really know the answer. As J*3 says they do like to make money out of telling other people how to do it... It is like someone who has made a lot of money in the stock market telling other people how to do it.
Edited to add: I heard a podcast the other day from Oprah (I think most would consider her a success) where she said something along the lines of "you have to try everything you possibly can and when you have done that you should let go and let fate take its course" that sounds like nonsense to me because you have never really done "everything you possible can" and how do you know if the horse you are busy flogging can have a miraculous recovery...
Last edited by JoanneCooper; 07/30/18 09:27 PM.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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The second thing I would like to comment on is this concept of "if you are running east to look for a sunset then you have the wrong strategy". This seems very simplistic because how many of us KNOW for sure that we are running east or that the sunset is in the west? I am busy reading Walt Disney's biography and I think on most levels we would consider him a "success" BUT he certainly looked like he was running east looking for a sunset... most normal people would have given up years ago.
That's the point of that formula. You may not know which way is West. You take action, NOTICE if it is working, and CHANGE as needed UNTIL you get the result you want. Not that many people take action, those that do many times don't pay attention. Of those that do, many aren't willing to change. I've seen this first hand so many times it isn't even funny. All of that being said, my comment wasn't meant to be about how great TR is or isn't. It was simply that you had left a bunch of important information out of what that formula actually is. It's not simply taking massive action. If a cake recipe had 5 ingredients and you represent it as having a single ingredient...it's not going to be the cake. If that makes sense? Anyway, I've explained my take on it. I personally think it's, as others have mentioned, a combo of both. I just also feel the success seldom will attack you on your couch in front of the tv. Diligence to craft, outcome, goal, "what you want"...whatever you want, is essential. Even if that diligence is "letting go an letting God." Do either half of that can be difficult. As I've also heard it said before "God can't steer a parked car."  Interesting subject with some great and interesting responses. Best of luck in your pursuits!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Last edited by HearToLearn; 07/31/18 01:29 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,576
Posts734,572
Members38,494
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Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
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lol Just my opinion.
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