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Hi All
Lately I have become fascinated in learning about the human condition and the psychology of success and have been reading some books about this. What is it that makes one person "succeed" in life and music while others do not. (Of course I know the definition of "success" is highly subjective but I will leave that discussion for another day).
There seems to be two distinct schools of thought. The first is from Anthony Robbins which is basically decide what you want and then go after it hell for leather (or "take massive action" in his words). The other that is floating around is "Let Go and Let God" which seems to be on a lot of social media and seems to be propagated by people like Elizabeth Gilbert and Carolyn Myss. (It can be applied whether you are religious or not).
I listen to a lot of Desert Island Discs, which by definition, interviews "successful" people and there seems to be a mixture of both attitudes.
I would love to know what your view is and if it has/is working for you and for others.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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Joanne, In addition to chasing success, some people have the ability to be more persuasive than others. I'd imagine that this is a factor that can't be overlooked. I also imagine that this explains why many artists get managers to do the 'heavy lifting'. In your reading journey, I encourage you to get a hold of Robert B Cialdini's, "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion". I found it quite an eye-opening read. It helped me heaps being a teacher. https://books.google.com/books/about/Influence.html?id=5dfv0HJ1TEoC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false Regards, Noel
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Thanks so much Noel. I was delighted to find the book on Audible and will listen to it. I will let you know what I think. Persuasion is definitely something I never think of but probably should.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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Without reading books on the subject I believe there is a lot in ones own approach. If you aim at the bottom rung on a ladder you will almost assuredly achieve it. If that was your aim then you are indeed successful (but not in the eyes of others ). If on the other hand you aim for the top and not reach the top run you may feel you have missed success but that may not be the way others see it.
You can be extremely talented but aspire to mediocrity or you can have less talent really work at something and achieve a level of excellence. I think it is largely a state of mind and willingness to work. Self belief also helps.
I once did a few shows with a guy who was known as one of Australia’s leading show biz talents. What amazed me was before he set foot on stage he spent the best part of an hour in front of a mirror going over everything he was to do, including facial expressions. When I quizzed him he simply said “l have to do the practice to be as good as I can. Some guys feel they can just walk out and do it” he said but not him. This chap really worked at being good.
My thoughts Tony
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First of all, know the right people or better yet be related to them. That's the surest path.
Next is luck. Luck has a lot to do with the opportunities we find or find us. You could be in the right place at the right or wrong time, you could choose the right manager or not, you could meet the right person, and so on.
Other than that, a combination of both approaches seems logical.
I hear auto-tune kings and queens that can't sing their way out of a paper bag, so talent alone doesn't do it.
I've known talented people who spend every waking hour and every spare dollar chasing that dream and never found it.
In my own case, we had a manager who did the work for us while we worked on the performance side of it. We were the opening act for groups like The Four Seasons, Association (back when they were #1 on billboard), and eventually various Motown acts.
Motown offered us a recording contract, but when our manager and the lawyers he hired tried to upgrade from the terrible contract Motown was offering to a bad contract, they quit talking to us and and chose their second pick. Because Motown wanted to own the band name, the second pick band (Sunliners) became Rare Earth.
We probably would have taken the terrible contract, we'd have to sell at least a million copies of our first LP to pay back Motown for inflated recording, distribution, and promotion costs -- all paid for out of our royalties. Motown wanted publishing rights, partial songwriting rights, and a hefty percentage of our gigs as 'agent fees'. We probably would have ended up broke and owing Motown money.
Well, at least I'm not a has-been, instead I'm an almost-was.
I consider myself successful anyway. For the majority of my life I've made a living doing music and nothing but music. I wasted a few years with day-jobs while trying to be normal, still gigging on the weekends, but that didn't work for me.
I own my house, the only debt I have is car payments, I've vacationed from Alaska to Central America, England to China, and even northern Africa. Australia is next. I'm in a duo with my wife/soul-mate/best-friend and we enjoy each and every gig and each and every non-gig day together.
I LOVE my life, that's success even if I didn't get to become Rare Earth.
Back on topic.
Some people are happy aiming for the bottom rung, others striving for stardom, success is hard to define.
The way I figure it is that if on your death bed you look back and thin, "What a nice ride" you were successful.
Back in the 1980s I met the sax star, Tom Scott. He was leading the band for the Steve and Eydie show, staying at the Hyatt of the Palm Beaches where we were the house band for 3 months and we got to talking.
Tom said that he knew that there was a sax player probably gigging in a Holiday Inn somewhere like Valparaiso Indiana who could put me [Tom] in his back pocket, but I was in the right place at the right time, I had the right connections, I showed up straight, and could do the job.
I have a lot of respect for Tom, he is a fine sax player and doesn't have a big head. He had the luck, talent, timing, and connections.
Would I have been more successful if we signed that terrible contract with Motown? All the pressure, acting like an employee, and so on? Since I had the luck to be the opening act for many bands, I've talked to many who said they were happier before they 'made it'. Others love their new life. Was Elvis Presley successful? The pressures drove him to drugs and an early death.
If we signed that terrible contract I wouldn't have met Leilani, and we've been in wedded bliss for 40 years and counting.
So your question begs, what is success?
The best answer I can come up with is, "It depends."
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I don’t think we can discount the intelligence factor. While assuredly not a guarantee the ability to think abstractly certainly is an asset. FWIW, my background is in psychology and from my observations over a 40 year career I think some folks are simply hard wired to take risks. And that can manifest in bungee jumping, et al and/or ventures that lead to “success” in life or a total disaster.... Bud
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I sometimes refer to this little poem when I think about success.
HEADS OR TAILS
God gave us two ends
With a connecting link
One end is to sit on
The other end is to think
Success depends on which end you use
Heads: you win
Tails: you lose.
My interpretation is, you're a success if you think about something and then do it. If you just sit on it, you'll never get anywhere.
My 2 cents (CDN).
LLOYD S
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Yeah, I think you gotta work it. And work it a lot. Especially if you're talking about the music business. No one is going to discover you. And, in reality, I suspect the whole concept of being discovered is a bit of a myth! Or, at least it is misunderstood.
The general public only becomes aware of someone once they are HUGE and it often looks like an "overnight success" but the truth is they were working their butts off forever and they ended up in the right place at the right time to be able to leverage their experience with an opportunity.
The Beatles had a great manager and plenty of practice so when the opportunity arose they were poised to jump on it. And when they rocketed to stardom they were still doing a mix of covers and simple originals; it would be some time before they created what I consider to be their masterpieces! I would even argue that, without their early success, they may never have had the time, money, inspiration, etc. to create Sgt. Pepper's, Abbey Road, etc.
But getting back on point, yes, you have to work your butt off continuously and network constantly online and offline. My advice for anyone seriously pursuing music as a career would be to physically move close to where music is still being bought and sold like Nashville. Meet everyone you can. Be at the Bluebird (and other establishments) every night. Get a day job in the business. Write a music blog. Interview stars and rising stars. Write constantly. Try and get one of those stars to sing your song. Befriend producers and engineers and studio musicians and staff at music companies. Go all in.
And be prepared to fail.
A career in music is one of the harder ones to successfully pursue. And if you are wanting to get paid as a performer that market is small while the competition is fierce! And if you have dreams of making it to the Grand Ol Opry stage that would be an even smaller group. And, if you dare to dream of becoming rich, well, there are only a few who achieve that.
On the other hand, most law school grads become lawyers and a majority of vocational school (HVAC, automotive, etc.) grads are employed in their fields too. I remember long ago when I was choosing a major in college, there were lots of tools available to help us pick something that was likely to result in actual employment! We knew certain majors, while intellectually or artistically satisfying, would not help us achieve our desired employment outcome. So we made our choices and our compromises based on knowledge and reasonable expectations.
Now, back to music and considering what are reasonable expectations...If you're fresh out of high school with no college plans/prospects and you have a beautiful face, a great voice, a bunch of excellent material and some sort of angle/hook/gimmick, I'd say pack up and head to Nashville and take a chance (aka work your butt off) for 4 or 5 years.
For anyone else I'd recommend keeping that day job and do music as a hobby. And maybe pray.
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In addition to all that has been said (hard work,luck, intelligence etc) you have to either love or like what you are doing.
I love playing guitar but I also liked my job. I stayed with my job because it paid well, I had a steady income, I could, with studying and hard work, and did rise to be a leader in my field. I still loved playing in my wedding band so I had the best of both worlds.
PS - my musician friends said that I sold out but I laughed at them all the way to the bank.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Read Outliers by Malcom Gladwell. My summary: unique opportunities + lots of practice + luck + talent = success in general terms as it pertains to the famously successful.
I read books from famous musicians and producers and they almost always have these elements. Read Questlove’s autobiography, Herbie Hancock’s autobiography, Bruce Swedien’s Autobiography, Andy Summers’ autobiography, and Peter Hook’s autobiographical account of how Joy Division came to be.
Gladwell’s Outlier’s maps on to each of these stories.
Also, every single issue of TapeOp interviews famous and not so famous engineers and producers and each of their stories maps pretty well to this. So does the big 3-4 hour long documentary on Tom Petty. So does “Made by George Martin”.
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Read Outliers by Malcom Gladwell. My summary: unique opportunities + lots of practice + luck + talent = success in general terms as it pertains to the famously successful.
I read books from famous musicians and producers and they almost always have these elements. Read Questlove’s autobiography, Herbie Hancock’s autobiography, Bruce Swedien’s Autobiography, Andy Summers’ autobiography, and Peter Hook’s autobiographical account of how Joy Division came to be.
Gladwell’s Outlier’s maps on to each of these stories.
Also, every single issue of TapeOp interviews famous and not so famous engineers and producers and each of their stories maps pretty well to this. So does the big 3-4 hour long documentary on Tom Petty. So does “Made by George Martin”.
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There are some really fascinating and valid points here. It kind of reminded me of the whole saying, "a watched pot never boils". Made me think of what people had been saying here.
Cheers,
Ember
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The first is from Anthony Robbins which is basically decide what you want and then go after it hell for leather (or "take massive action" in his words).
That's part of his formula. It's actually... -you need to decide and get VERY clear on what you want -take massive action toward it -notice if it is working or not -adjust accordingly to get closer to your goal -repeat In my opinion, most people are not clear on what they really want and/or never take massive action to get it. Of the few who do, then typically don't apply the rest of the formula. He even addresses this... "“Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy.” -Tony Robbins He also says the way to speed up the process is to use role models. In my opinion, many amateur song writers don't apply much of that at all. Here is the thing though, they may be fine with that. They may be doing EXACTLY what they want to be doing. So...all good by me. Personally, I'm really happy to see people enjoy their accomplishments. I just find it hard to watch people, who want to improve, take the same actions over and over and can't figure out why they don't. If you do nothing different; expect the same results. (We all know the definition of insanity) Hopefully helpful.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 07/30/18 04:49 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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First of all, know the right people or better yet be related to them. That's the surest path.
Next is luck. Luck has a lot to do with the opportunities we find or find us. You could be in the right place at the right or wrong time, you could choose the right manager or not, you could meet the right person, and so on.
Notes, I'm a big fan of yours and think you are a pretty amazing person all the way around. I hope you don't mind me adding to your point. Aside from being related; I think we both can do A LOT to "know the right people" and create our own luck. Of course, not completely; but I see too many people who blame bad luck or not knowing the right people. Many times they have not put in sufficient effort. Also known as "paying your dues." Just my take.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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If you read a lot and study a lot you will find that success in any field has many common principles in common and a similar hierarchy. Music has a wide foundation of very poor musicians/singers (poor) a very large body of competent, highly competent but security minded musicians/singers who have what it takes to be a huge success, many have some success and get opportunities but don't take the risk and keep their day job (middle class) and a very small percentage achieve super stardom. The super rich and famous are not necessarily the smartest or the best. They are simply super successful. (the upper class). Employment has a similar hierarchy. Learn the principles, apply them and you can be successful in any field.
Most of the 1% in money that are self made have been completely broke. The 1% control 96% of the money. There are only 3 ways to earn money and one way to inherit it. Only one way to earn money is a pathway to super wealth because it is the only way to change the time/money ratio. One must either be an employee, earning a salary; a higher paid management employee or self employed; A big business or finally an investor in many different business streams of income.
96% of the US population work for a salary exchanging time for money. To earn more money they have to spend more time, like taking a second job but in the end there is only so much time. They can spend even more time getting more education or learning a new skill but again, in the end there is only so much time and therefore, only so much money they can earn. Inherited money is completely dependent on someone else's work. Whatever the inheritance is will be what it is...
3% of the population Invest money for money. Wholesale/retail, stocks, bonds, etc...
1% Invest money to earn money passively. MSI's = multi-stream incomes. Blogging, Internet sales, monetizing YouTube videos, write books, etc
There are more books, videos, courses and other avenues teaching the principles of money than there are the same to learn the principles of super success in music. Learn the principles of money, apply them to music and even if you fail, you could end up rich.
To learn principles, I recommend Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki and Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Neither are road maps, techniques or steps to get rich quick. Both teach the principles and the mindset how to think about money.
So to me, success in music is creating a one time event (original Record/CD), repeating that multiple times, do a one time set up to market the CD's in multiple venues and outlets, build a brand off my music productions to create multiple passive incomes that generate money into my bank account for the remainder of my life...
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The first is from Anthony Robbins which is basically decide what you want and then go after it hell for leather (or "take massive action" in his words).
That's part of his formula. It's actually... -you need to decide and get VERY clear on what you want -take massive action toward it -notice if it is working or not -adjust accordingly to get closer to your goal -repeat In my opinion, most people are not clear on what they really want and/or never take massive action to get it. Of the few who do, then typically don't apply the rest of the formula. He even addresses this... "“Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy.” -Tony Robbins He also says the way to speed up the process is to use role models. In my opinion, many amateur song writers don't apply much of that at all. Here is the thing though, they may be fine with that. They may be doing EXACTLY what they want to be doing. So...all good by me. Personally, I'm really happy to see people enjoy their accomplishments. I just find it hard to watch people, who want to improve, take the same actions over and over and can't figure out why they don't. If you do nothing different; expect the same results. (We all know the definition of insanity) Hopefully helpful. I have more than a little disdain for Tony Robbins. If he was honest he would tell people the way to become rich & successful is to launch a business like his where you claim to be able to teach people how to become rich & successful! With that said I have read his books and he does have some good advice. I particularly like "Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy." But the implication one is left with is "dang, he's right, I've been running east when I should have been running west...that's my solution"! But it is ALWAYS far more complicated than that. Guys like Robbins are not in the business of reality. They'll stand on stage and rally 10,000 people, get them to do exciting (but essentially useless) things like firewalking, and then send them back to their regular lives...temporarily motivated and a few hundred bucks poorer. Guys like Robbins would never admit to their audience of 10,000 that there are only 10 slots available for whatever it is that is being promoted at that event. Nope, he will stand up there and try to convince everyone that they all have a shot if they'll just run west instead of east. I understand why he does it. And, as I said, he has some great advice. But I find the entire process of getting rich by convincing people they are gonna get rich, when 99.9% of them will not, to be damn near evil! Whoa, I got off on a "Tony Robbins is evil" rant! Well, your points are all good. And there is a lot to be said for showing up and giving it your best shot. And working really hard. And all that. But damn, I hate to see someone without hands paying good money for guitar lessons!
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There are so many wonderful responses to this question. Thank you to each of you for taking the time to respond. It certainly is an interesting topic.
There are two "themes" I would like to pick up on and comment on and maybe return to some of the others at a later stage.
The first is the concept of "luck". In my mind saying I was or am lucky would equate to non-religious "let go let god" whereas the "you make your own luck" is more like the "take massive action". (I think it Willie Nelson who said it took him 30 years to become an overnight success). I think we are certainly "lucky" with what we are born with. ie what our intellect is like, what family we are born into and whether we have healthy genes or not but then after that maybe we make our own luck by getting off our butts and being in the right place at the right time with the right experience to be able to take advantage of an opportunity.
The second thing I would like to comment on is this concept of "if you are running east to look for a sunset then you have the wrong strategy". This seems very simplistic because how many of us KNOW for sure that we are running east or that the sunset is in the west? I am busy reading Walt Disney's biography and I think on most levels we would consider him a "success" BUT he certainly looked like he was running east looking for a sunset... most normal people would have given up years ago.
I am starting to wonder if any of these "gurus" really know the answer. As J*3 says they do like to make money out of telling other people how to do it... It is like someone who has made a lot of money in the stock market telling other people how to do it.
Edited to add: I heard a podcast the other day from Oprah (I think most would consider her a success) where she said something along the lines of "you have to try everything you possibly can and when you have done that you should let go and let fate take its course" that sounds like nonsense to me because you have never really done "everything you possible can" and how do you know if the horse you are busy flogging can have a miraculous recovery...
Last edited by JoanneCooper; 07/30/18 09:27 PM.
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The second thing I would like to comment on is this concept of "if you are running east to look for a sunset then you have the wrong strategy". This seems very simplistic because how many of us KNOW for sure that we are running east or that the sunset is in the west? I am busy reading Walt Disney's biography and I think on most levels we would consider him a "success" BUT he certainly looked like he was running east looking for a sunset... most normal people would have given up years ago.
That's the point of that formula. You may not know which way is West. You take action, NOTICE if it is working, and CHANGE as needed UNTIL you get the result you want. Not that many people take action, those that do many times don't pay attention. Of those that do, many aren't willing to change. I've seen this first hand so many times it isn't even funny. All of that being said, my comment wasn't meant to be about how great TR is or isn't. It was simply that you had left a bunch of important information out of what that formula actually is. It's not simply taking massive action. If a cake recipe had 5 ingredients and you represent it as having a single ingredient...it's not going to be the cake. If that makes sense? Anyway, I've explained my take on it. I personally think it's, as others have mentioned, a combo of both. I just also feel the success seldom will attack you on your couch in front of the tv. Diligence to craft, outcome, goal, "what you want"...whatever you want, is essential. Even if that diligence is "letting go an letting God." Do either half of that can be difficult. As I've also heard it said before "God can't steer a parked car."  Interesting subject with some great and interesting responses. Best of luck in your pursuits!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Last edited by HearToLearn; 07/31/18 01:29 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Hi Chris That is an interesting read thank you.
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Yeah of course one can find exceptions to try and disprove a simple general truth. My point is that people like Robbins completely understand human behavior and they know full well that 99.9% of their customers (marks) cannot or will not achieve the results they are selling. To blame/shame the victim of a scam is wrong in my opinion. And generally speaking I find Robbins to be a scammer on the level of televangelists! I do agree with you that people need to put in the effort to realize the achievements. I just don't wanna be too critical of Grandma because a slick conman tricked her out of her life's savings!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 07/31/18 04:10 AM.
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Has anyone heard of The Starmaker Machine? They guarantee success in The Music Business.  Regards, Bob
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Yeah of course one can find exceptions to try and disprove a simple general truth.
Me finding exceptions? Don't you think you offering the who person playing taking guitar lessons was maybe the exception, and I simply showed you possibility? lol My point is that people like Robbins completely understand human behavior and they know full well that 99.9% of their customers (marks) cannot or will not achieve the results they are selling. To blame/shame the victim of a scam is wrong in my opinion. And generally speaking I find Robbins to be a scammer on the level of televangelists! I don't see that as victim shaming at all. To me, a victim is someone that had something done to them against their will. Rape would be a prime example. Someone hit by a drunk driver another. Someone taking guitar lessons for years, going to see guitar seminars, purchasing thousands in equipment only to eventually just end up quitting. Scammed? Victim? I don't think so. I see TR as similar. Just my opinion of course. It's a choice someone made. I do agree with you that people need to put in the effort to realize the achievements. I just don't wanna be too critical of Grandma because a slick conman tricked her out of her life's savings! Really building that victim role. I don't think you know of a grandma that some conman tricked out of her life savings. It sure is dramatic to throw out there though! Let's hope grandma never took guitar lessons! Anyway, we both have been unpopular at different points for our views. Hopefully someone is getting a good chuckle out of this! I know I am. I'm actually typing all of this with a smile on my face. The one universal truth I have taken from JC's post is whatever the path, it takes effort. That level of effort is in direct correlation to the desire level of the goal. It's not always timely. Luck comes into play to some extent. That amount varies depending on the person you ask. And ultimately, I like what Bud said. We are all talking about what it takes and are tapping on a nail with our shoe. He came in with a big arse hammer and took care of it. Love that guy! Enjoy your day everyone.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I do agree with you that people need to put in the effort to realize the achievements. I just don't wanna be too critical of Grandma because a slick conman tricked her out of her life's savings! I don't think you know of a grandma that some conman tricked out of her life savings. Conning elderly is big business! https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/25/elder-financial-fraud-is-36-billion-and-growing.htmllevel of effort is in direct correlation to the desire level of the goal. It's not always timely. Luck comes into play to some extent. But the fact remains that some goals are not accomplishable by some people. Some are not accomplishable by the vast majority. And cons like Robbins know that all too well and earn an incredible living taking advantage of that fact. I just feel it is highly unethical to knowingly prey on people's hopes and dreams while counting on their gullibility to fill your bank account.
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Hmmmmm...success. Interesting topic. As always, a pretty-sounding word in search of a definition.
My first book is titled How to Mind-Read Your Customers. It has been translated into numerous languages. It is interesting to me that I have received thousands of emails and comments from readers across the world all pointing to ONE passage in the book where a good friend of mine told me the only piece of advice he ever received from his New York City marketing guru Dad when he was growing up on the subject of success.
He said the ONE and ONLY piece of advice his Dad gave him when he was growing up was:
"Son, I just want you to go out there in the world and help as many people as you can every single day expecting absolutely nothing in return and everything else in life will take care of itself."
Every time I mention this to someone, or they read it, they say: "That's it."
Both my friend and his Dad are super successful in worldly terms and probably have 3,000 close friends who would take a bullet for them.
I consider myself a success at this ripe old age because of all the friends I have and all the adventures I have had along the way. I cannot think of anything material. They say that when you publish your first book the sense of elation will last about 15 seconds and it is true. That stuff is so ephemeral. There is small success, medium success and huge success--but if that external stuff is what matters most you will be a drug addict in no time. I think you have to look for something else.
Most of my life now is wrapped up in mentoring, helping and stuff like that and I love it when I can help some person get one step closer to where they are trying to go.
I think what J3 said about the reality of success in Nashville is acutely on target, but that is a rough row to hoe, and the chance of failure is about 99.99 % if super stardom is your goal.
One of the saddest things in life to me is that so many people already ARE successful in all the areas that really count but they just can't see it. And that is the root of human misery.
The root of human joy--IMHO--is appreciating what you have while still having enough discipline to practice or write many hours a day (or whatever it is that you love to do) "expecting nothing in return."
If you just keep writing for the love it, I know, sometimes the most miraculous things come out of nowhere.
But you have to do it for the love of it, not a quest for fame.
Just my two cents. And if I have any "wisdom" I have plenty of bruises and scars and direct sledgehammer hits to the skull from God to show for it I can tell you that.
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<...snip...>
The Beatles had a great manager and plenty of practice so when the opportunity arose they were poised to jump on it. <...> And if they didn't find that great manager, they would have most likely stayed another bar band. That's where the luck comes in. And someone mentioned you can make your luck. More precisely you can increase your odds of being lucky by being in the places where music is being made like Nashville. You can increase your odds of meeting the right person by networking. Everybody seems to have very interesting points here. You have to work your bottoms off, you have to be prepared, you have to network to meet the right people, you have to try to be in the right place at the right time, and all of that increases your luck at getting the big prize. And yes, it's still luck. And if you are shooting for stardom, be prepared to fail, because for every one that makes it, there are thousands that don't. On the other hand, if you can still make a living at what you consider your bliss, and live not worrying how to pay the rent or where the next meal is coming from, can you really consider yourself a failure? I think that word is too strong. I've been there, in the limelight, stars of the day treating me like an equal, playing to packed houses and sometimes outperforming the stars that followed us, recording tracks in Motown's downtown Detroit studios, and almost making the big time. I made several attempts after that, none of them even that successful. So for the rest of my life I still made my living doing music and nothing but music. Following my bliss. Although I put in way more than 40 hours a week at this, it doesn't feel like work, because there is no drudgery. The only dull part is setting up and tearing down the gear. But that's like cooking a great meal and cleaning up after. It's just what I do. So no I didn't quite make the big time, but that isn't the only measure of success. I'm making a living following by bliss, the mortgage is paid, I've traveled much of the world (another bliss) and my only debt is car payments. And since I put about half down, the payments are low. So I wasn't a success at stardom, but I am successful at making a living by following my bliss. I'm living my life on my own terms, I'm not a subordinate to anybody, I met and married the woman of my dreams (if only I knew enough to dream this person), my wife is my duo mate and 24/7 isn't enough time together, we have hundreds of fans, we have clients that have been hiring us for up to 40 years now, we have a weekday house gig that will be going on 11 years in October, and I'm happy. I LOVE my life. That's success Not everybody would agree with that. To some it's all or nothing. But in any career that's tough. There are thousands of chefs making a living cooking great food that never make the big time and become a Wolfgang Puck type celebrity. To me failure would have been settling for a career in electronics, retail sales, or some wage slave to a faceless corporation. But that's me. It doesn't necessarily apply to anybody else. Again, it comes down to what you call success and if you consider that there are different levels of success. Insights and incites by Notes
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And always remember: The size of your heart is not measured by how much you love others, but by how much others love you.
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Hmmmmm...success. Interesting topic. As always, a pretty-sounding word in search of a definition.
My first book is titled How to Mind-Read Your Customers. It has been translated into numerous languages. It is interesting to me that I have received thousands of emails and comments from readers across the world all pointing to ONE passage in the book where a good friend of mine told me the only piece of advice he ever received from his New York City marketing guru Dad when he was growing up on the subject of success.
He said the ONE and ONLY piece of advice his Dad gave him when he was growing up was:
"Son, I just want you to go out there in the world and help as many people as you can every single day expecting absolutely nothing in return and everything else in life will take care of itself."
Every time I mention this to someone, or they read it, they say: "That's it."
Both my friend and his Dad are super successful in worldly terms and probably have 3,000 close friends who would take a bullet for them.
I consider myself a success at this ripe old age because of all the friends I have and all the adventures I have had along the way. I cannot think of anything material. They say that when you publish your first book the sense of elation will last about 15 seconds and it is true. That stuff is so ephemeral. There is small success, medium success and huge success--but if that external stuff is what matters most you will be a drug addict in no time. I think you have to look for something else.
Most of my life now is wrapped up in mentoring, helping and stuff like that and I love it when I can help some person get one step closer to where they are trying to go.
I think what J3 said about the reality of success in Nashville is acutely on target, but that is a rough row to hoe, and the chance of failure is about 99.99 % if super stardom is your goal.
One of the saddest things in life to me is that so many people already ARE successful in all the areas that really count but they just can't see it. And that is the root of human misery.
The root of human joy--IMHO--is appreciating what you have while still having enough discipline to practice or write many hours a day (or whatever it is that you love to do) "expecting nothing in return."
If you just keep writing for the love it, I know, sometimes the most miraculous things come out of nowhere.
But you have to do it for the love of it, not a quest for fame.
Just my two cents. And if I have any "wisdom" I have plenty of bruises and scars and direct sledgehammer hits to the skull from God to show for it I can tell you that.
Brilliant post!
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duplicate post...
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 07/31/18 05:48 AM.
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<...snip...>
The Beatles had a great manager and plenty of practice so when the opportunity arose they were poised to jump on it. <...> And if they didn't find that great manager, they would have most likely stayed another bar band. That's where the luck comes in. And someone mentioned you can make your luck. More precisely you can increase your odds of being lucky by being in the places where music is being made like Nashville. You can increase your odds of meeting the right person by networking. Everybody seems to have very interesting points here. You have to work your bottoms off, you have to be prepared, you have to network to meet the right people, you have to try to be in the right place at the right time, and all of that increases your luck at getting the big prize. And yes, it's still luck. And if you are shooting for stardom, be prepared to fail, because for every one that makes it, there are thousands that don't. On the other hand, if you can still make a living at what you consider your bliss, and live not worrying how to pay the rent or where the next meal is coming from, can you really consider yourself a failure? I think that word is too strong. I've been there, in the limelight, stars of the day treating me like an equal, playing to packed houses and sometimes outperforming the stars that followed us, recording tracks in Motown's downtown Detroit studios, and almost making the big time. I made several attempts after that, none of them even that successful. So for the rest of my life I still made my living doing music and nothing but music. Following my bliss. Although I put in way more than 40 hours a week at this, it doesn't feel like work, because there is no drudgery. The only dull part is setting up and tearing down the gear. But that's like cooking a great meal and cleaning up after. It's just what I do. So no I didn't quite make the big time, but that isn't the only measure of success. I'm making a living following by bliss, the mortgage is paid, I've traveled much of the world (another bliss) and my only debt is car payments. And since I put about half down, the payments are low. So I wasn't a success at stardom, but I am successful at making a living by following my bliss. I'm living my life on my own terms, I'm not a subordinate to anybody, I met and married the woman of my dreams (if only I knew enough to dream this person), my wife is my duo mate and 24/7 isn't enough time together, we have hundreds of fans, we have clients that have been hiring us for up to 40 years now, we have a weekday house gig that will be going on 11 years in October, and I'm happy. I LOVE my life. That's success Not everybody would agree with that. To some it's all or nothing. But in any career that's tough. There are thousands of chefs making a living cooking great food that never make the big time and become a Wolfgang Puck type celebrity. To me failure would have been settling for a career in electronics, retail sales, or some wage slave to a faceless corporation. But that's me. It doesn't necessarily apply to anybody else. Again, it comes down to what you call success and if you consider that there are different levels of success. Insights and incites by Notes Another brilliant post! Success certainly does not have to include enormous wealth!
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I'm not certain I'd agree Brian Epstein "luckily" stumbled onto the Beatles. He was actively seeking a band to manage and heard about them, purposely sought them out, approached them and was a capable salesman. At the time he encountered the Beatles, they were a top band in the Liverpool market.
There's certainly truth to many people luckily being in the right place at the right time. Check out Warren Huart's (Produce Like A Pro) interview with Richard Furch on YouTube. Prince happened to drop into a session where Richard was a intern, Prince liked a mix Richard did and asked who did the mix. Later, out of the blue, he contacted and hired Richard to work for him...
Here's a story I recently shared with someone that shows it's better to work smart than hard...
A college student with no other income created a self employed dog walking business and charged $16 per dog and was walking three dogs once per weekday. $48 a day, $240 per week. He really enjoyed the time, peace and companionship. From a casual conversation with a friend who was a financial consultant, the friend developed a plan that the student gave free walks in exchange for his customers to allow him to place advertisements at their businesses and he recruited 4 other friends to become dog walkers as his business grew, increased some of his customers dog walks to twice a day and grew his side business into a $250,000 a year gross income. Walking dogs... There's got to be a hit song hidden in that story somewhere!
I worked the math to see how that could realistically be true. Interesting findings. 4 walkers @ 5 dogs walking three different groups (including the 2nd walk for some clients.) 60 dogs walked per day @ $16 = $960... X 260 days per year = $249,600. Even if he was splitting the $16 charge with his workers, that's $125,000 for walking dogs. Entirely possible. It's not the product but increasing the amount of time dedicated to earning money...
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Has anyone heard of The Starmaker Machine? They guarantee success in The Music Business. Tell me more Bob!
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He said the ONE and ONLY piece of advice his Dad gave him when he was growing up was:
"Son, I just want you to go out there in the world and help as many people as you can every single day expecting absolutely nothing in return and everything else in life will take care of itself."
Every time I mention this to someone, or they read it, they say: "That's it."
Ah ah! Now something just hit me.... I am busy listening to Ray Dalio principles and on the way to work this morning he said "Most people try to get as much as they can while doing as little as possible" Bam! That is directly opposed to the David's quote above where you "Do as much as possible and expect (read get) as little as possible in return". However, what does come to mind when I think about David's quote is "Don't sell yourself short", "Don't perform for free", "I should be paid what I am worth... " etc... For me personally the financial freedom to do things that I love like hiking, sailing, skiing and travelling is very important. Thus, "Let go, expect nothing in return while working hard" does not really sit well with me. I don't want to spend my life doing things expecting nothing in return and actually GETTING nothing in return and living off two minute noodles in my old age. Lol... Maybe "success" is a combination of the two. Ie "Do things and expect to be paid what those things are worth in return". The key may very well be in "what are those things worth". So coming back to music, in the current climate "songs" may not actually be worth very much since there is SO much good quality music coming out of people's basements and it is simply a matter of supply and demand. (I seem to be rambling a bit, but just getting my thoughts out there. LOL)
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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I am not usually the most optimistic person, but I suppose overall being able to get up in the morning in reasonable good health, and being able to do things for the love and enjoyment of it, like playing music is success in itself.
And as we get a little older I think its even more important that we count our blessings.
If someone really wants to be famous on TV or have a big musical hit, then that's fine too, it Might happen, even if it doesn't, nice dream to have, and even thinking or imagining it can give a little enjoyment in itself.
Mentioning the Beatles being so successful is not really a good example in my book, they were in Music but lets not forget, Lennon was killed at the young age of 40 simply because he was a Beatle.
If any of us was given the choice to loose years of our life just for the sake of being famous, I'm sure which path most of us would choose.
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Joanne,
For the sake of propriety, I will not mention these two gentlemen by name, but they are extremely successful above and beyond what many people have in terms of worldly success and have certain "keys to the kingdom" that other people don't have.
But it all came from helping as many people as they could "expecting nothing in return" and then those people they had helped were always there to help them. Their network of fiercely loyal allies numbers in the thousands.
I have seen such people raise millions of dollars for a charity by the end of the day by placing three phone calls, then those three people said "if it is important to you Joe.." and then those three people called three people [add exponent, add exponent, and so on] and then by the end of the day, millions had been raised. But the first person on the line was the "help as many people as you can..." person. As my friend said: "You can literally see the switchboard of the United States light up when that first call is made." That is the "secret."
So, I think the response here is not what I am saying. I am not saying work for free. I am saying what this father taught his son about putting others FIRST does always work out best in the end if your heart is in the right place.
I cannot count the number of people who consider themselves a failure who got that backwards.
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Success..... depends on the person's definition of success.
Do you define setting on the front porch playing the music you love, as success, or does it mean sold out arenas with 30 thousand fans on a 6 month world tour and a #1 album with massive airplay?
Going hell bent for leather can cause problems. With the driven kind of personality that is required to maintain that attitude for extended periods of time, there tends to be lot;s of casualties along the way. Marriages and health are just two of the things that suffer as a result of that HBFL kind of drive to be a success.
Nashville, NYC, LA, among other places are filled with this kind of person. I've met them. Extremely talented and driven to achieve their goals. However, the truth is, there's not room at the top for everyone. Not everyone can be a star regardless of the talent one has. I've seen lots of people who are extremely proficient at writing, singing, and playing an instrument, doing the equivalent of setting on the street corner playing for tips and change.
When you read, or hear the back stories of many of the big stars, you find a certain level of drive, but you also find more often, they love what they do, do it fairly well, and just happened to be in the right place at the right time and met the right people. They all sacrificed something to get where they are. The question is, what are you willing to sacrifice to get to where you want to be?
Personal satisfaction in doing what you want, the way you want, on your own terms, and when you want, is another definition of success. The crowds aren't a factor, other people liking what you do, or even liking you, isn't a factor....as long as you enjoy it, that's all that matters. Just look at Jed Clampett. He epitomizes this kind of success. Yeah, I know he's a TV character in an old TV show, but there's a lot to be learned from his character about true success in life.
Too many people consider themselves a failure if they have not achieved some level of fortune and fame in their lives. Having millions in the bank is nice but it doesn't always make one happy. Being a super star in the music business doesn't make one happy necessarily. Look at all the folks who have achieved that level of material "success" and are miserable, lonely, in poor health, have a trial of broken marriages behind them, or have committed suicide as a result of things in their life.
The way I define success is being content and happy with where you are in life. Achieve that, and you can say you are successful.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hi Herb
Yeah I thought we may all get tied up on our definitions of success and I do believe that everyone has (and should have) their own definition.
I would personally define success as being financially independent, healthy, having meaningful work and having meaningful relationships.
I want to be able to afford to do the things I want to do. I want my heath to allow me to do things that I want to do and that someone my age should be able to do. I want to have the time to spend it with people I want to spend it with. I want to have work that mentally stimulates me.
It’s a lot to aim for I know so it still beggars the question on whether to trust that I will get all that or if I’m going to have to go after it hell for leather.....
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Replace the “or” in the thread title with “and” and you will find out soon enough if it’s God’s will..
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Hi Herb
.............. I would personally define success as being financially independent, healthy, having meaningful work and having meaningful relationships.
I want to be able to afford to do the things I want to do. I want my heath to allow me to do things that I want to do and that someone my age should be able to do. I want to have the time to spend it with people I want to spend it with. I want to have work that mentally stimulates me.
It’s a lot to aim for I know so it still beggars the question on whether to trust that I will get all that or if I’m going to have to go after it hell for leather..... well.... I had to work like hell bent for leather to get what I wanted....and a little of the divine intervention of putting me in the right place at the right time didn't hurt either.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Yeah I thought we may all get tied up on our definitions of success and I do believe that everyone has (and should have) their own definition.
It has been very fascinating to read over everyone's responses, but at the end of the day this is exactly right. Success and what it means to achieve it is going to be different for everyone.
Cheers,
Ember
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Yeah I thought we may all get tied up on our definitions of success and I do believe that everyone has (and should have) their own definition.
It has been very fascinating to read over everyone's responses, but at the end of the day this is exactly right. Success and what it means to achieve it is going to be different for everyone. Exactly Ember. Maybe you are a success if you consider yourself to be a success. ie You dont sit there thinking, I wish I had more money or I wish I was thinner or I wish I had someone to share my life with (IF those things are important to you). Conversely maybe you are a failure if you THINK you are a failure.
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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Replace the “or” in the thread title with “and” and you will find out soon enough if it’s God’s will.. Ah Yes!
LyricLab A.I assisted chords and lyric app. Export lyrics and import directly into Band-in-a-Box 2024. https://lyriclab.net Play-along with songs you know and love, download SGU files https://playiit.com/
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“Running east looking for a sunset, I don’t care how positive you are, I don’t care how hard you work at it, it’s not going to work, it’s the wrong strategy.”
-Tony Robbins This is certainly good advice, but if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, I'd like to use this quote to illustrate the serendipitous nature of fame, and maybe the reason why some people get lucky by being in the right place at the right time. Even if you run with all your might to the east looking for a sunset... the sun is moving faster than you are. Sooner or later the sun will go down wherever you happen to be in your journey. You might have to turn around to see the sunset... but a sunset happens once a day no matter where you are. I said that to point out that there are forces with more momentum than you can muster on your own. This is partly why there are stories of people being in the right place at the right time. Having said that, I think there is a method to the madness of being in the right place at the right time. It is more than luck. It has to do with identifying trends, then jumping on the bandwagon with your art to fuel the fervor. Most of the artists I like jumped on the Hippie bandwagon, and the movement carried them to a position of recognition. Today I see artists (both graphical and musical) getting attention by serving niche movements. Cartoons, animations or songs about a trending ideology positions you to be forwarded by people who are actively involved in spreading that ideology. Ideology is like a river.. it has direction and current capable of sweeping people along with a momentum that would be hard for one person to build alone.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 08/04/18 03:46 AM.
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Being prepared is good, but luck is always present.
An analogy:
A hunter sees deer tracks, and sets up various cameras. He notices a place where a big buck crosses about 9AM every day.
So the hunter gets up the night before, prepares himself to mask the human scent, hides up in the tree as dawn arrives and waits for the deer.
On the way there, the buck gets the scent of a doe in heat and heads the opposite direction.
Bad luck for the hunter, good luck for the deer.
There is a story about Fabian, a teen idol of the 1950s (who couldn't sing his way out of a paper bag). A record exec was walking down a street in New York, say this guy sitting on a porch, figured the girls would go wild over this guy, and made him a star. If Fabian had been inside tending to nature at that moment he wouldn't have been discovered.
Good luck with zero preparation.
However, if you are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, or know the right people, and you are prepared for it, the combination of work and prep can be a winner.
Note I'm talking about stardom as the measure of success. I truly think that although I didn't quite make 'the big time', making a living by doing music and nothing but music with the kindest woman I've ever known who just happens to be a great singer and a musician is success in life. I'm happy, out of debt and fulfilled.
And I owe it all to luck.
I was gigging at a night club. I was in a hired horn section for this wanna-be star. He had all the promotion, studied the moves, but didn't quite have it.
I was recently divorced and a couple of us sat down with a table of young women. It was a lot of fun, but none of them really interested me.
The next night they literally put clothes on Leilani and dragged her to the club to hear this band. She was recently divorced, tired of the meet/meat market scene, and playing in another band at the time.
I looked out from the stage, saw this woman with a beautiful smile sitting with the group of ladies that I had a good time talking with the night before, sat down and said "Hi".
It was immediate, comfortable and exciting at the same time. It was like we were old friends. We became each other's groupies, and when both our bands broke up within weeks of each other, I whispered in my best faux-French accent, "Let's make beautiful music together."
Luck. If our band got fired for one of the guys in the band itself acting inappropriately, a week earlier, I wouldn't have met her. If the agency put us somewhere else that week, or if Leilani refused to go out, or any number of other things, it wouldn't have happened.
It was great luck.
IMHO anyone who discounts luck is missing something. But someone who counts on luck without working for it is missing even more.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Notes, I like that.
It's a great articulation of how things happen in life. Good luck to you. Probably well deserved, also.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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lol Just my opinion.
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