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#494931 - 10/09/18 08:19 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Tabla Tracks
drutgat Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/18
Posts: 66
Hi,
I am about to purchase BIAB, and I have been told on the forums that there is no Tabla Real Track.

It would be great to have Real Track Tabla parts.

Tabla is from North Indian (Hindustani) Classical Music, and I know very little about South Indian (Karnatic / Carnatic) Classical Music, but you might want to sample some of those percussion (and other instruments, too). For example a 'drum' used in Carnatic music is called a Mridangam.

If you go ahead with this suggestion to add Tabla Real Tracks, I would add that recording the basic Thekas would be a good idea (thekas are characteristic, 'template'-like ways of playing the equivalent of a time signature. Like playing a generic four-on-the-floor drum pattern to illustrate an example of a 4/4 time signature).

For example, one of the ways of playing the theka for for Jhaptaal (10 beats) is:
(O = diminished or no emphasis; [bolded] = emphasis on the beat.The theka is played as two groups of 5)


1 2, 3 4 5

O
6 7, 8 9 10

It is difficult to explain how these sound unless you are acquainted with playing the music (because, even if you do not play Tabla, your early lessons have you singing/reciting the sound of each 'beat' played by the Tabla - mnemonics, really).


The most popular Talas (Taals) are the following, but there are many, many more:

Tintal (Teentaal, Tintala) - 16 bols (beats)

Rupaktal - 7 beats

Jhaptal - 10 beats

Ektal - 12 beats




Edited by drutgat (10/09/18 08:23 PM)

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#495096 - 10/10/18 05:48 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4122
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
+1.

Not to my musical taste but it is nice to have a wide variety of RealDrums or RealTracks to choose from.

Can you suggest any artists familiar enough with the instrument to create an authentic sound?

Would loops be more appropriate since the tabla is a percussive instrument?

How do you anticipate tabla sounds integrating with with the predominate western instrument sounds and styles used in Band-in-a-Box?

+++ HERE +++ is a Wikipedia article for those wishing to know more about the instrument.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (520) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#495119 - 10/10/18 10:57 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
drutgat Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/18
Posts: 66
Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your respectful and thoughtful reply.

In answer to your questions:

1. There are quite a few tabla players - well-known, and not so well-known, whom I can think of right off the top of my head.

For example - Zakir Hussain (son of the late, great tabla player, Alla Rakha) is well-known for musical collaborations with John McGlaughlin & The Mahavishnu Orchestra.

I think that Zakir Hussain divides his time between California and India.

Tanmoy Bose is another well-known and well-regarded tabla player (and played with the late Ravi Shankar quite a bit toward the end of Ravi Shankar's life).

In terms of lesser known people, many cities in North America and Europe have Indian music 'societies' which host visiting artists (I am a member of one), so contacting one of those may be an option. Often they will have 'Sangeet' in the title (referring to the trinity of singing, music, and dance which make up Classical Indian performing arts).

I could certainly recommend some tablists whom I have seen in concert many times, and who tour regularly.

One thing to be borne in mind is that there are various 'schools' (know as 'Gharanas') of tabla playing, of sitar playing, and so on, and many of these schools claim that their way of doing things is 'correct', according to the strict interpretation of the main Indian Classical musical form, the Raga (sort of equivalent to the Western Classical Music symphony, but with very strict rules of interpretation).

This can often cause 'political' dissension and in-fighting.

I do not say this lightly, as I have been involved with the Indian Classical Music scene in my city, and was a sitar student of a teacher who was the disciple of a very famous sitar player. I have also seen a lot of ICM concerts.

Generally, Western-born musicians playing these instruments are far less political in this way, although they will probably be part of a specific gharana / school, and will follow that school's style of playing.

One of the things I might do if I were PGmusic, would be to contact the Ali Akbar Khan College of Music, in San Rafael, California.

They are generally respected, and I am sure would make several recommendations of good (and affordable!) tabla players.

Here is the URL Ali Akbar Khan College of Music

2. I was thinking of suggesting creating loops, and yes, I think that is a good idea, and would suggest that the loops at the very list consist of the Thekas for the talas I mentioned in my original message, above.

3. I am not sure what you meant when you asked "How do you anticipate tabla sounds integrating with with the predominate western instrument sounds and styles used in Band-in-a-Box?"

The Beatles - and their use of sitar, tabla and other North and South Indican Classical instruments (played by George Harrison and Indian musicians in songs like 'Within You, Without You', 'The Inner Light', 'Love You To', and 'Norwegian Wood') are the best exemplars of how to integrate these instruments with Western music (in this case, Rock music).

Obviously, in creating this cross-pollination of radically different musics, The Beatles really did kick start what we now describe as 'World Music', and there are so many examples today of people combining these two kinds of sounds, that I think PGmusic offering this in BIAB would broaden the sonic and musical palettes for Band In a Box users.

Loreena McKennitt, and Nitin Sawney are a couple of people who immediately spring to mind (although I do not really like their music). McKennitt combines Celtic folk sounds with sitar, and the like, and Nitin Sawney uses electronica, hip-hop, jazz and Indian Classical and Semi-Classical instruments in his music.

And I am sure that there are examples of other, more recent artists who combine Western and Eastern music (particulary with the explosion of interest in Bollywood in the West, over the last 7 or 8 years).

If PGmusic decides to take a closer look at this, I have much more to say and would be glad to contribute thoughts, questions, and so on, in addition to what I have said above.

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#495189 - 10/11/18 09:04 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4122
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Excellent reply. I'm enjoying this conversation very much.

Drumming has rudiments. Rudiments are the essential patterns of drumming broken down into the most elemental, basic components. Drummers learn rudiments to gain skill and learn technique.

From your description I'm relating Thekas to rudiments because they seem to be the most elemental form of tabla playing. So I can understand how having loops of Thekas at different tempos would greatly broaden the appeal of Band-in-a-Box.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (520) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#495204 - 10/11/18 09:55 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
Frank Alves Offline
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Registered: 04/11/08
Posts: 228
Loc: San Diego County
Having some Real Drum tabla tracks would be great. Also, I believe that there are some tabla rhythms available from the loop library.

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#495208 - 10/11/18 10:03 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17630
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
I really like this suggestion. Having RealTracks of tabla playing would be more realistic than using loops.

The sound is amazingly flexible for cross-genre playing. I've done some spontaneous improv with a tabla as the only percussion, and modal jazz sounds amazing. I usually play soprano sax for this.
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#495210 - 10/11/18 10:11 AM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: Frank Alves]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4122
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Originally Posted By: Frank Alves
Having some Real Drum tabla tracks would be great. Also, I believe that there are some tabla rhythms available from the loop library.
Frank is quite correct! Check out the PG Music provided loops and there is a bunch of tabla loops.

The PG Music loops folder is located inside the RealTracks folder. Use the search command of Ctrl + F to open he search window, type in the search term, "tabla" and you'll see them.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (520) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#495307 - 10/11/18 06:18 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: Jim Fogle]
drutgat Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/18
Posts: 66
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
Excellent reply. I'm enjoying this conversation very much.

Drumming has rudiments. Rudiments are the essential patterns of drumming broken down into the most elemental, basic components. Drummers learn rudiments to gain skill and learn technique.

From your description I'm relating Thekas to rudiments because they seem to be the most elemental form of tabla playing. So I can understand how having loops of Thekas at different tempos would greatly broaden the appeal of Band-in-a-Box.


Hi Jim,
Exactly - Thekas are the most elemental form of tabla playing, partly because they provide a theoretical 'blueprint' for how to play a particular taal (or tal or tala - transliteration is not precise, so you see various English spellings of these, and other terms in Indian Classical Music).

Of course, what a specific tabla player will play might vary from the exact form of the theka, but is still rooted in the theka, much as we would probably recognize 'When The Saints (Come Marching In)' whether it was presented in a jazz format, or a more straightforward pop format.

You are a much quicker study than I was (and am).

So, having loops would certainly provide people with the authentic basic version of a particular tala which every tabla player learns and would recognize, despite the fact that the different gharanas/schools of tabla playing might vary the thekas slightly -- Rupak Tal will still be recognized as Rupak Tal.

Now, I am going to contradict myself a little (if one can say that there are degrees of contradiction). Sometimes, what an individual tablist will play when playing a particular tala will not resemble the theka in terms of the specific parts of the tabla that they strike at a particular time; however, the underlying, sacrosanct structure or 'skeleton' of the tal will still be evident to those acquainted with those structures.

As a Westerner who has had to work hard at understanding even the minute amount that I do understand about Hindustani Classical Music, I find that it is a lot of fun to sit at an HCM concert and to figure out what tal is being played (the performers usually tell you before they start playing, but it can still take a while to work out what the hell is going on!).

I have also been thinking that MIDI representations of tabla bols (beats) might be good in terms of being able to edit, but Real Tracks in the form of loops are essential, in my opinion.

Thanks for encouraging this conversation - I, too, am really enjoying it.

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#495576 - 10/12/18 10:18 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
drutgat Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/18
Posts: 66
Hi Frank, Matt, and Jim,
Frank, thanks for mentioning that there are some tabla loops in the RealTracks folder of PG Music.

I am presuming that - since these are in the RealTracks folder - they are what I suggested above, actual recordings (in this case, in loop form) of tabla being played - is that right?

Unfortunately, since I am waiting for the next (apparently imminent) release of BIAB, and because I do not have a previous version, I cannot check that yet.

I would love to hear some of these. If it is not too much trouble, could one of you just grab some of those loops and post them here somewhere? Or a few seconds of each one?

No matter if that is not possible or is too much trouble.

This is exciting!

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#495764 - 10/13/18 04:31 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: drutgat]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 4122
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
The loops are audio loops.

There are three files for each loop including (1) a 16 bit 44.1 audio file, (2) a bt6 file that provides some kind of information to Band-in-a-Box or RealBand and (3) a text file with tempo, root chord and time signature information.

The tabla files are a portion of a sound library PG Music purchased so I do not feel comfortable posting one or a link to one.

The good news is the loop library is included in every version of Band-in-a-Box from the Pro to the Audiophile.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (520) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity - Zoom MRS-8 recorder
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB SSD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#495785 - 10/13/18 07:25 PM [Styles and RealTracks Wishlist] Re: Tabla Tracks [Re: Jim Fogle]
drutgat Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/18
Posts: 66
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
The loops are audio loops.

There are three files for each loop including (1) a 16 bit 44.1 audio file, (2) a bt6 file that provides some kind of information to Band-in-a-Box or RealBand and (3) a text file with tempo, root chord and time signature information.

The tabla files are a portion of a sound library PG Music purchased so I do not feel comfortable posting one or a link to one.

The good news is the loop library is included in every version of Band-in-a-Box from the Pro to the Audiophile.


Hi Jim,
Thanks for the information above.

I understand and respect your decision.

And it may, indeed, be good news that the loop library is included in every version of Band-In-a-Box, but I would say that depends on the quality of the loop or loops in question.

Thanks again.


Edited by drutgat (10/13/18 07:25 PM)

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