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#64233 - 03/11/10 07:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: mglinert]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18805
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA

mglinert
Umm, I don't think there are suppose to be percent signs there unless you move the decimal a couple spots.

You wrote these are per thousand, when in fact it is per hundred thousand and was not expressed in percentages.

I notice England is kinda spotty on reporting the last few years in this article anyway.

John, you have been here many times and never had a problem, so suddenly knowing our gun laws makes it more dangerous? Silly..


Edited by rharv (03/11/10 07:47 AM)
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#64234 - 03/11/10 07:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: John Conley]
Mike sings Offline
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 1336
Loc: Friesland, The Netherlands
I don't think that citizens gun ownership will have a huge effect on crime-rates. More guns will not automatically lead to more crime (or less crime for that matter). However the more citizens own guns, the more likely shooting accidents will appear. (More cars on the road, greater chance of an accident)

So there have to be other factors that affect crime-rates. Every place (city, country, state, whatever) has its own triggers for people to chose to commit crimes. Think about factors like poverty, lack of education, lack of "home" (loving and caring parents), lack of chances of improvement, social pressure from groups (gangs), addiction to drugs, alcohol or whatever, etc. And of course there are some people that will never do a descent days worth of work , but will resort to crime whatever the circumstances.

Don't get me wrong here: Everyone who commits a crime CHOSES to do so, no matter what the background of that person may be.

Getting crime-rates down will have to involve law enforcement, suited punishment and creating a situation where people are less likely to turn to crime.
Improving the social situation and cleaning up when you are dealing with violent gangs (who benefit by the current situation) will require a very large and hard broom...
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#64235 - 03/11/10 07:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: jazzmammal]
tributeman Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 589
Loc: uk
Like Ive said in my previous post.This has nothing to do with citizens not being allowed to carry guns its because we have a left wing government and judiciary (a throw back from the hippy 60s) who dont have the guts or the intelligence to give these animals who kill innocent people life sentences without the chance of parole.We are hamstrung also with the human rights court who look to help the perpertrator not the victim
We should build more prisons to house these murderous thugs and in so doing give employment to our long term unemployed. locking these killers and gang members up for a very long time would mean they wouldnt be out on the streets killing people.I often wonder what would happen if two legally armed people got into a heated argument would they both reach for their weapons to end the argument I dont know but to me it seems to me a very high risk of such a thing happening.Cheers Frank
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#64236 - 03/11/10 07:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: John Conley]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18805
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
" Remember this stat, 1 billion dollars of goods a day, usually tilted in our favour due to the natural resources going south and finished goods coming north."

We know that is not all you are sending over here John, but I won't pick on you for that..
Hundreds of garbage trucks a day bringing the canadian garbage in. Literal garbage. Not much of a 'natural' resource, unless that's what you call it up there..
I wish I knew how we got into that one.
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#64237 - 03/11/10 08:04 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
mglinert Offline
Expert

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 938
Loc: France, but I'm an ex-pat Brit
Quote:


I don't think there are suppose to be percent signs there




Thanks for that Bob.

Corrected now

Regards,

Marc
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#64238 - 03/11/10 08:06 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: mglinert]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18805
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
mglinert,
it still says per thousand in your post, and it is per 100,000.

That is a huge statistical difference.
.00054 vs .00016 compared to your showing .054 vs .016

*Edit*
Thanks mglinert


Edited by rharv (03/11/10 09:09 AM)
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#64239 - 03/11/10 08:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18805
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
tributeman-

I think you are indeed touching on the problem. I am not sure we need *more* prisons as much as we need to look at sentencing guidelines and use. When people are spending as many years in jail for marijuana possession as others are for violent crime, something seems wrong to me.. and they are taking up needed space.

However, people are no more prone to grab a gun in a heated argument than they are to grab a knife, bottle or vehicle. I don't think that particular scenario is a significant part of the problem. It is more of a gang violence problem than anything else. Adjust any of these stats to account for that factor and the numbers change significantly.
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#64240 - 03/11/10 08:56 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: bobcflatpicker]
marvjonesi Offline
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 169
Loc: Eye-Dee-Ho
Quote:

Very true Marv. I support your right to not want to own a gun.

The question is, do you support my right to own one? Probably not.

So it all boils down to a group of people wanting to take the rights of another group of people away.

Bob




Actually, I don't really care if you want to own a gun or not. but I AM opposed to the "rights" of people to kill other people, to rob other people, to drive 90 mph in a 45 zone, etc., etc. We just have completely different ideas of what a "civilized" society is.

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#64241 - 03/11/10 09:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: marvjonesi]
mglinert Offline
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Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 938
Loc: France, but I'm an ex-pat Brit
Quote:

it still says per thousand in your post, and it is per 100,000.

That is a huge statistical difference.
.00054 vs .00016 compared to your showing .054 vs .016




Thanks, Bob.
Corrected now, but I’m afraid you’ve lost me when you refer to a statistical difference.
Whichever way you look at it, 5.4 is almost 4 times greater than 1.4.

It is the absolute likelihood of meeting intentional suicide that I got wrong – across all the countries.
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#64242 - 03/11/10 09:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: marvjonesi]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:


Actually, I don't really care if you want to own a gun or not. but I AM opposed to the "rights" of people to kill other people, to rob other people, to drive 90 mph in a 45 zone, etc., etc. We just have completely different ideas of what a "civilized" society is.




I have to chime in here.

Nobody has the RIGHT to kill people, rob people or endanger people by speeding. Such statements are typically used as straw man arguments to force the argument outside its natural boundaries.

Because it is already established that nobody has the RIGHT to do illegal things (well.. with the possible exception of illegally entering certain countries) we don't need to discuss that.

The point in question is this:
how can a nation give good people the liberty to make choices that do not endanger others without simultaneously making it easy for bad people to abuse that same liberty? Let's continue the discussion with that as the focal point

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#64243 - 03/11/10 09:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
BTW, when we tender the contracts for 'garbage' to be disposed of, it's bid on by Canadian and American companies. We just have laws that require the contract to go to the lowest bidder. Put a tariff on it, no more problem. Or regulate it. Sure 300 trucks a day are crossing the border with our soiled pampers. I heard you were building ski hills with it and then Canadians would visit to ski on our own garbage. Weird.

Michigan has put the brakes on the garbage at the end of the year. About 8 miles from here they are building a huge landfill, in a very heavy clay soiled area. As you drive by on the major highway (401) the stench right now is very bad. All the stuff that was going there is coming just outside of London. At least the pounding the highway takes from here to MI will slow down.

Sometimes free enterprise is too free.

And if you look at the communities we went to every year, Yale, Port Huron, Marlette, etc, we deemed them safe. But it costs 80 bucks for each guy a day in health insurance, plus double if your wife went, there were 50 of us, gas, food, and then bang, 2 to 4 hours at the border to get in. We got $1000 per parade. The math meant if we stayed home and put $50 each in a pot and had a steak at our club we were ahead of the game.

At the end of the day it was really the border that stopped it, most of us enjoyed the bus trips (another $25 per person), and eating chicken in Port Huron.

Every once in a while the guys who run our big 20 passenger mini bus send a text message, border is 20 minutes, leaving at 10:30 a.m. for Chicken in the Rough, cost for the bus is $25 bucks. The check the times on-line and hope the conditions don't change. Just a social thing.
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#64244 - 03/11/10 09:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: John Conley]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

We have a Charter of Rights, and it's for the whole country. Not just parts.

I'm and confused on that issue.





When your national mantra begins with "We the People..." the first question is "which people?"

After all, as this thread testifies, not all good people see things the same way. How can any large group of people make laws that meet the needs of the majority?

A system of states is one way to add equity and ensure that regional concerns can be codified into law. When a majority of local voters agree one way in Vermont and another way in Texas, the majority in both places get their way. I think it is a marvelous system. It minimizes the number of people who have to live with laws they don't like.

As stated previously, national law typically overrides state law. Differences that persist are generally in areas of regional importance.


Edited by Pat Marr (03/11/10 10:01 AM)

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#64245 - 03/11/10 09:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: bobcflatpicker]
mglinert Offline
Expert

Registered: 07/12/07
Posts: 938
Loc: France, but I'm an ex-pat Brit
Quote:

Very true Marv. I support your right to not want to own a gun.

The question is, do you support my right to own one? Probably not.

So it all boils down to a group of people wanting to take the rights of another group of people away.

Bob




With respect, there are gaping logical flaws in this argument as the two rights in question are very different in nature.

Citizen A claims the right not to bear arms. This choice has no directly lethal or potentially lethal effect on anyone. The citizen who exercises this right represents no threat to anyone.
There is not a single state, regime or government in the world that would challenge a citizen's right not to bear firearms.

Citizen B claims the right to bear arms. This means he could, potentially:
- shoot himself, whether intentionally or by accident
- shoot others, whether intentionally or by accident
- have his firearm (through accidental discovery, sale or, more likely, theft) fall into the hands of someone less prudent -and more trigger happy- than himself

Clearly, these two 'rights' cannot therefore be viewed as being similar.
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#64246 - 03/11/10 10:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: mglinert]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Quote:

Very true Marv. I support your right to not want to own a gun.

The question is, do you support my right to own one? Probably not.

So it all boils down to a group of people wanting to take the rights of another group of people away.

Bob




With respect, there are gaping logical flaws in this argument as the two rights in question are very different in nature.

Citizen A claims the right not to bear arms. This choice has no directly lethal or potentially lethal effect on anyone. The citizen who exercises this right represents no threat to anyone.
There is not a single state, regime or government in the world that would challenge a citizen's right not to bear firearms.

Citizen B claims the right to bear arms. This means he could, potentially:
- shoot himself, whether intentionally or by accident
- shoot others, whether intentionally or by accident
- have his firearm (through accidental discovery, sale or, more likely, theft) fall into the hands of someone less prudent -and more trigger happy- than himself

Clearly, these two 'rights' cannot therefore be viewed as being similar.





Marc, you are confusing RIGHTS with CHOICES, and so the logical error is yours.
RIGHTS are guaranteed by law. In this country we have the RIGHT ot bear arms, and that is not open to discussion, it is simply the law here.

However, people exercise that right with a variety of personal choices, including the choice to forego the right to bear arms.

Choices may or may not be legal. Anyone is free to make illegal choices; but the function of law is to determine the penalty for illegal choices. And a functional system will faithfully exact those penalties.

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#64247 - 03/11/10 10:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: mglinert]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
mglinert,

Quote:

Citizen B claims the right to bear arms.




Not true. The 2nd Amendment to the constitution guarantees Citizen B that right. He dosn't have to "claim" it'

Why is it that every time this topic comes up, the vast majority of the people who are chiming in on US policy aren't US citizens? (and yes, Marv, I know that doesn't include you).

I couldn't care less about the laws in Canada, the UK, France, etc. They don't concern me. They're none of my business. Our laws are none of your business. If you move here, start paying taxes, become a citizen, then you get to make them your business by the use of your 1st amendment right of free speech and you get to vote in order to make your voice heard.

You have the right to your opinion and to state it here on this forum or any where else. But why do you care about our laws that don't affect you? It would be different if we were talking about trade policy or something that affects you or your country.

Nobody's mind has been changed in this thread. The same as every time this topic comes up on here.

Bob
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#64248 - 03/11/10 11:06 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: bobcflatpicker]
marvjonesi Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 169
Loc: Eye-Dee-Ho
I've never had a problem with the legal ramifications of gun ownership and the Constitutional right to bear arms. I just have a completely different mindset as to guns (and their uses) in general. I've never truly understood the fascination with them and the whole sub-culture of owning weapons. But hey...that's just me. It's an opinion.

I should add: I'm a veteran (though I wasn't in a war), so I HAVE used guns. They held no fascination for me.


Edited by marvjonesi (03/11/10 04:03 PM)

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#64249 - 03/11/10 11:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: marvjonesi]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6490
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Totally agree with you on this Marv. While I've never owned one, I like the idea that I could get one if I want to. Still, I have a cousin who was a sniper in Vietnam who has a 6 foot tall gun safe in his house with at least 50 guns in it and a shed in the backyard where he makes his own ammo. The only gun that makes sense to me is a pretty cool replica of a flintlock, everything else looks like Rambo's arsenal and I don't get it either.

Bob
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#64250 - 03/11/10 12:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
tributeman Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 589
Loc: uk
I have to disagree with you by facts here in the UK.Those who carry weapons have used knives and guns they carry with them in heated arguments.If they werent packing them then its fists and rarely is someone killed in a one on one fist fight.You say its now legal in some states to openly carry a gun so that means a lot more guns on the streets.When alchohol or drugs are involved then there is a much greater chance of people settling disputes with the weapons they carry.In many a heated argument fists and bottles are used I would therefore assume weapons would also come into play.Frankie
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#64251 - 03/11/10 12:09 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: jazzmammal]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
interesting link:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Gun_control

yes, this site does present the conservative point of view on the topic. But let's not presume that everything we don't like is also untrue.

Regarding the observation that the choice of person A (not having a gun) does not endanger anyone, click on the link and scroll down to the section titled GUN CONTROL AND GENOCIDE

This is an abbreviated list. I have seen other sites where there are far more historic examples of genocide after gun control was passed. So I am not sure I would agree that gun control is safer for the general population. It just determines who has guns and who is defenseless.

In a country that is becoming more divided all the time, I really do not want laws that enable a government of either persuasion to come in the middle of the night and eliminate those they consider to be dissenters.

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#64252 - 03/11/10 12:13 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: jazzmammal]
Edward Buckley Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 812
Loc: Guadalajara, Mexico
Re>Guns and our culture....It started before our revolutionary war. Almost all citizens had guns for hunting and personal safety (Indian attacks and all that.) Our country changed, but it's ties with guns never did. I grew up in Portland, Oregon....your average Bb kind of town. Every home I knew of where I went to school had a gun locker, or at least a Shotgun and 1 rifle. Every boy went to "Hunter safety" class. If your father didn't take you out on the weekends to target shoot, you went with him to go hunting in the fall. Nobody thought about shooting someone. Kids knew the gun was to be touched only to clean it, repair it, or put in the car for dad. Now, like almost everything else, it's been turned upside down. 11 year olds walking the street with handguns, 15 year olds leaning out a car window and spraying the street with M-16 or AK-47 fire. This is not what the founding Fathers meant by the "Right to bear arms". Do I own them?...Yes. Do I carry them in my car while going to the store? No...although I've been told I should. Is this what we've come to? Pretty soon you are going to see people with a gun on their hip when you are at the movies, amusment park, shopping, etc. Like I said before, sad.

Ed

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