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#64333 - 03/19/10 08:18 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: John Conley]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Funny about those toronto stats, seems like half of them must have happened here-

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051118/funeral_shooting_051118/20051118

If we are going to throw around stats, lets keep the stats somewhere near reality ...or there is no sense using them


Edited by rharv (03/19/10 08:31 AM)
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#64334 - 03/19/10 08:49 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Toronto has gangs. Jane and Finch area, and the far east end. No reason for anyone to go to those areas. Safe enough is you stay away, it's just plain turf war. But on a small scale. My Mom and Dad went to a convention 20 years ago in Grand Rapids (church thing), and wanted to go out for a walk after supper. The man at the door told them it was way to dangerous.

But even at 2 am. thousands of tourists walk around Downtown Toronto. That's a fact, Jack. Sorry to say it but 80 percent of the shootings are young black males, and 10 percent are Asians, and about .01 percent end up innocent bystanders. It did happen, Jane Creba was sitting in a Starbucks or something when some guys got into it with handguns. But that's the only one I remember.

We had a 3 on 3 basketball tournament here downtown every year. The bulk of the players were from Detroit. At 12 p.m. the downtown became a shooting gallery, car windows shot out, buildings with windows shot, and people running through the streets with handguns. I'm on the downtown committee, we did a review, it brought in big bucks, but we canceled it. It was called the Gus Macker 3 on 3. We closed all the downtown streets and they set up courts. The building I take care of downtown, (hire electricians plumbers etc.) made 20k more in revenue that weekend. But it didn't feel safe at all.

2003 stats
Detroit 42 murders per 100,000 people
Toronto 1.8 murders per 100,000 people

Take your pick for nice vacation at a a downtown hotel. And when you look at crime, better Cuba than Jamaica. I've been to both, and I'm sure of my safety in Cuba. When I went to the beach in Jamaica I took a few dollars, and left my key with the desk at the hotel so they couldn't take me back there and clean out my room, which happened to a friend of mine.
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John Conley
Musica est vita

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#64335 - 03/19/10 09:38 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: John Conley]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
We have Gus Macker here in port huron every year, three day event I believe.

Nobody has ever been shot in corrolation with it to my memory and we are a lot closer to Detroit. Somehow the bulk of the players are local, as that is what the tourney is all about. Wonder why Detroit players would go all the way to Toronto?? How did they get thru customs with weapons? And before you answer that your customs don't search like ours, remember these guys were coming back.. so they were going thru both ways.

Something sounds fishy, or maybe biased.

We have gangs here too John, and the majority of the shootings you hear about are gang related here also. There are also hundreds of people wandering around downtown Detroit on any given night enjoying the Red Wings game or Comerica park. Without incident. Just like Toronto there are bad areas you avoid. Funny how you accept that in Toronto but not here.
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#64336 - 03/19/10 02:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
I think it's the dealers from Toronto and Windsor who know they've got guys who will buy that are the trouble makers.

All I know is that in this whole city of nearly 400,000 you can't find 60 black young males, but when that thing is on the city is full of them, probably 300. They are way taller than us...
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John Conley
Musica est vita

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#64337 - 03/19/10 03:02 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: John Conley]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
From personal experience (and statistics) Detroit is worse than Toronto for crime.

I will admit that.
I hesitate to put a color on it though. To me its more of an economic issue.
I have no doubt the dealers play a large part in the crime activity, same as everywhere.
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#64338 - 03/20/10 03:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Supreme court was set up to decide on issues that are not defined and need to be. Somebody has to have final say (using the constitution as a guide). I am glad we do not elect these justices, they are appointed by the person we elect as president but only when a spot becomes available, like one of them retires (or dies).
I wouldn't want them elected, or to have the ability to influence their decisions in other ways (lobbying etc) or rotated with each administration. I think it's a pretty good setup. What issue do you have with it Pat?
As I mentioned, someone has to have the final say on interpretation of law. Checks and balances are great, but there will always be a need for a final decision. I don't necessarily agree with every decision they make, but I don't think I could come up with a better system.




The old way of sneaking unpopular laws into existence was by adding them to the end of a popular bill that was sure to pass. The new way is submit legislation that is ill-defined in the areas where, if you said what you actually meant, it would never be voted into law. Then, once the bill is passed, you just set up a case where the law is challenged, it goes to the supreme court and they define it...often in ways which are not consistent with the will of the majority. The implications of a very few people making personal judgment calls that affect the whole population is unnerving to me on many levels. Oligarchy is government of the many by a few, and there are aspects of the supreme court that smack of Oligarchy.

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#64339 - 03/20/10 07:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
There are aspects of the absue of our system that smack of oligarchy. I don't think you can blame the supreme court when someone else passes a bill then forces the case ..

I do know what you are talking about. It is abuse of the system by those 'entitled' bass-tirds in Washington..
luckily some of the worst ones are getting old and dying off. If it weren't for that they would never leave.
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#64340 - 03/20/10 11:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

There are aspects of the abuse of our system that smack of oligarchy. I don't think you can blame the supreme court when someone else passes a bill then forces the case ..

I do know what you are talking about. It is abuse of the system by those 'entitled' bass-tirds in Washington..
luckily some of the worst ones are getting old and dying off. If it weren't for that they would never leave.




I don't BLAME the supreme court.. my contention is that for the power they exercise, there is virtually no system of checks and balances on them, apart from the natural balance of opinions in the group (and that is always subject to manipulation, as in magistrates of a certain ilk waiting until their party is in power before they retire). To my way of thinking, that's neither enough balance nor enough control. Small groups can become homogenized in their thinking too easily. They can also be swayed by special interest groups.

Its a few people with absolute control to enforce their personal opinions, and nobody can do anything about it. We can't vote them out if we don't like their opinions. They can't be removed from the office by anybody that I am aware of.

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#64341 - 03/20/10 01:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Congress can control the supreme court by changing the laws to force them to ashere in their decisions.

That is the only 'recourse' way. See prohibition as an example. Currently another example would be flag burning. Supreme court often upholds it is free speech. If congress made a law that it was specificly illegal, they would have to honor it. At least until it was formerly challenged in their court <grin>
Otherwise, the President nominates/appoints a judge, but Congress has to approve it, so there is a smaller checks and balances there at the beginning.
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#64342 - 03/20/10 07:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
Gary Curran Offline
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Registered: 01/07/02
Posts: 10059
Loc: Poulsbo, Wa 98370
Quote:

It is abuse of the system by those 'entitled' bass-tirds in Washington..
luckily some of the worst ones are getting old and dying off. If it weren't for that they would never leave.




There was once a planet, many lightyears off, which was inhabited by cats and mice. There were far more felines on the planet, but the mice were in office and ran the planet.

A passing traveler stopped by, and after staying a while, spoke to one of the cats about how peaceful the place was, and how there seemed to be no wars, or such.

The cat replied that while this was true, if the traveler stayed much longer, he would see that the mice had no clue what they were doing, the taxes were exorbitant, and that personal freedoms were quickly vanishing.

The traveler asked the cat why they didn't do anything about it, and the cat replied that it was a democracy, and that the mice had been elected as 'the will of the people.'

When asked why they didn't get rid of the mice, the cat replied, rather smugly, 'We don't want the wrong mice getting in power!'

Gary
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#64343 - 03/21/10 08:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Gary Curran]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Yeah , I understand, but somehow my vote doesn't change 80% of the country.

See when your congressman gets millions to build you a bridge that you really don't 'need' but makes your life easier, you re-elect him, regardless of whether it was worth it for everyone. Back to entitlement again.

Get me 'mine' and I'll re-elect you.
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#64344 - 03/21/10 10:36 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Wow, caught this tidbit this morning concerning UK crime and how they are handling it.

Is relevant to thread; how would our supreme court handle this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/nottinghamshire/8578631.stm

No doubt in my mind how illegal this is here.. Is this legal there? Random drug testing and searches on the street.
Except it's not really random, you were 'suspect' if you were between 13-24!
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#64345 - 03/21/10 11:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Yeah , I understand, but somehow my vote doesn't change 80% of the country.

See when your congressman gets millions to build you a bridge that you really don't 'need' but makes your life easier, you re-elect him, regardless of whether it was worth it for everyone. Back to entitlement again.

Get me 'mine' and I'll re-elect you.




I saw a news blurb just this morning about politicians selling their votes for personal perks (not even perks for their constituents, which would be good /bad on a whole other level)

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#64346 - 03/21/10 12:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Wow, caught this tidbit this morning concerning UK crime and how they are handling it.

Is relevant to thread; how would our supreme court handle this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/nottinghamshire/8578631.stm

No doubt in my mind how illegal this is here.. Is this legal there? Random drug testing and searches on the street. Except it's not really random, you were 'suspect' if you were between 13-24!





Profiling is an interesting topic which I'm not sure has been nailed down the same way in all cases. For example, in the insurance industry, if it can be statistically proven that certain groups have more wrecks, that whole group can be charged more for their premiums. If somebody in that group actually has an accident, his/her rates go up even more. This is a form of profiling, and it is legal.

However it is also statistically true that a very high percentage of terrorist activity in recent years has been done by a highly identifiable demographic group. Yet, it is not OK to single them out for more diligent searching at the airport.

There needs to be leeway to use common sense in society. Randomly harassing a group because you don't like that group shouldn't be OK. In countries where there has been genocide, that's always the first step. Disarming them is the second step.

However, where it is known there is a demographic with a certain problematic terndency there needs to be a way to address those individuals without bothering those who are basically minding their own business.

It should never be OK to intimidate a group by taking them out behind the building and beating them up without a trial and without repercussions. But there should be more we can do to identify people who are suspicious so law enforcement can constrain their activity in ways that make it harder to act against society. The guy at Ft Hood is a good example. Many people saw that coming a mile away, but there was nothing they could do because of profiling laws.


Edited by Pat Marr (03/22/10 04:05 AM)

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#64347 - 03/21/10 12:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
regarding profiling:

we know from history that just about any group can suffer dramatically when the society they live in turns against them. People have been massacred because of religion, political opinion, race, excessive wealth, excessive poverty.. you name it.. if somebody doesn't like you and they can convince enough people you're the problem, you can be demonized and persecuted.

This discussion reminds me of the scene in SONG OF THE SOUTH where Bre'r rabbit tells Bre'r bear "Don't throw me in the briar patch!", knowing full well that he would do exactly that if he thought that's what the rabbit DIDN'T want.

I'm concerned that when the rules about profiling change (and they will), it will be presented as though the bear is just doing what the rabbit asked for, but in fact the rabbit is a special interest who is manipulating the bear to make a decision the rabbit wanted all along.

I think the end result will be less fairness and more persecution (because the people ASKED for it, doncha know). And I think when this happens, we may be surprised (maybe not) who ends up in the demonized group.

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#64348 - 03/21/10 12:36 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18956
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
It wasn't just the chosen group that surprised me. The search (full body scans) and the drug testing as you got off the public transportation is what initially surprised me. I wonder if this is a regular occurence there. It wasn't reported as being 'Look what they are doing', seems more like 'they were out there working for us' type of report.. implying people there are OK with this (?).


Edited by rharv (03/21/10 12:37 PM)
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#64349 - 03/21/10 01:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

It wasn't just the chosen group that surprised me. The search (full body scans) and the drug testing as you got off the public transportation is what initially surprised me. I wonder if this is a regular occurence there. It wasn't reported as being 'Look what they are doing', seems more like 'they were out there working for us' type of report.. implying people there are OK with this (?).




different people see this in vastly different ways. I would be curious to see some forum input on the topic of profiling. Personally, I don't like ANY all-encompassing rules. I think common sense always considers the pertinent details. As an example of a scenario I would see as acceptable:

Here in the USA, people are given the right to PEACEABLE assembly. Protesting an abortion clinic is an example of that. I think that to provide compliance with the PEACEABLE part of the assembly, protesters should be willing to submit to a search for weapons. Providing none exist, nobody should be able to stop them from their peaceful protest.

But the corollary is that the unarmed protesters should have reasonable confidence that their lawful protest won't turn into something reminiscent of Kent State or Tienman Square.


Edited by Pat Marr (03/21/10 02:01 PM)

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#64350 - 03/21/10 01:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
an interesting movie about persecution is THE BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMAS

It is a dark film, not really very much fun to watch.. but it deals fairly with the topic of profiling and the subsequent persecution of a group. It uses symbolism to compare and contrast the two groups presented in the film, and it shows how the mindset of persecution is cultivated in a society from the youth upward. It also shows how everyone in a society is affected by the mindset of persecution, not just the target group.

If you like symbolism, this film uses it very well to makes a variety of points. If you don't like symbolism, you may not like the movie at all, because most of what the film says well, it says symbolically.

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#64351 - 03/21/10 02:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Pat Marr]
Gary Curran Offline
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Registered: 01/07/02
Posts: 10059
Loc: Poulsbo, Wa 98370
Bob,
Have you ever seen a roadblock set up outside of a bar, where everyone is stopped, and checked for alcohol? How much different is that from here?

Yes, I think both are wrong, in the U.S., you're innocent until proven guilty, and we've supposedly based a lot of our laws on the laws of U.K., so I would think that the same sort of thing goes on there.

I was watching Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin last night, and both were making the point that our country is starting, very little, but starting, to see a grass roots level movement to take back our country from the government. Palin makes the point that it has to be done through a legal manner, i.e., the voting process, which it should. But, I fear that it won't happen that way, that it will be wrought with violence and much bloodshed.

I am certain, however, that in the next 15 years, possibly even sooner, it will happen.

When a government becomes oppressive, at some point, the people, if they have known 'freedom', such as the U.S. and U.K., will rise up and reclaim that freedom.

Maybe both countries are on the same path to self-destruction and self-renewal.

Gary
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Music touches everyone, and everyone can touch music, if they wish.

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#64352 - 03/21/10 02:54 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Lock and Load with Open Carry Laws... [Re: Gary Curran]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7547
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Bob,
Have you ever seen a roadblock set up outside of a bar, where everyone is stopped, and checked for alcohol? How much different is that from here?

Yes, I think both are wrong, in the U.S., you're innocent until proven guilty, and we've supposedly based a lot of our laws on the laws of U.K., so I would think that the same sort of thing goes on there.

Gary




Gary! Glad you chimed in! I always value your thoughts!

*IS* it wrong to focus control in areas where there is most likelihood of a problem?? Heaven help us if we can't enforce good sense until it blows up in our faces. What have we accomplished by letting the disaster play all the way out? Prevention is a good idea, IMHO


Regarding the idea of being innocent until proven guilty: people coming out of a bar drunk who don't get behind the wheel of a car probably would not be charged with anything. I don't think it's a crime to be intoxicated. It *IS* a crime to drive drunk. Better to identify them before there's a bunch of people tangled up in sheet metal, broken glass, puke and blood.

But that's just my opinion. Not everyone would agree.

The trick is in finding a way to identify and stop criminals without simultaneously inhibiting the freedom of those who are law-abiding citizens. We're open to suggestions. Any takers?

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